Jimquisition: Vertigo

[Silent Protagonist]

Suggestion: Try to come up with some male protagonists that fit Jim's criteria and debunk them like this thread has been doing with possible female character candidates that Jim might have missed. I couldn't think of one off the top of my head. The guys from GTAV don't even fit his criteria. Might be worth a separate thread

Elaborate on this, because quite a few examples were given in the video. And I don't see how the GTAV protagonists don't count.

The boys from GTA V were the closest I could think of to meeting his criteria. They are conventionally attractive, except for maybe Trevor. Tragic backstories and personal traumas are abundant. They also receive motivations from and/or rely on other men(and/or women which may be required depending on how far you reverse the criteria) so further disqualified. I don't think this would count but it could also be argued that they can be fairly substantially customized through haircuts and wardrobe changes which would disqualify them. I don't think that last reason really fits as I said because the goal of that criteria was to eliminate the "blank slate" character

EDIT: Also the examples given in the video of male characters only demonstrate maybe one of the criteria but certainly not all of them put together. For example, the aging Solid Snake is mentioned. I would argue that the "silver fox" is very much a thing that many women find attractive and that he is also a "good guy" so is eliminated. He also has a fairly long list of traumas behind his character.

 

[Ukomba]

Hmm, well here's a list of characters I think meet that criteria:

Amazon in Dragon's Crown.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
Okami from Okami.
Peacock from skull girls.
Double from skull girls.
Macha from Chrono Cross.
NeoFio from Chrono Cross.
Poshul from Chrono Cross.
Sprigg from Chrono Cross.
Shale from Dragon Age.
Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2.

That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head from games I've played.

Amazon - Sexualized, impractical outfit. While not "traditionally" attractive from a mainstream attraction, she definitely fits within fetishistic character design tropes popular in certain niches within Japanese entertainment. She may not be everyone's cup of tea, but trust me, she's designed for sex appeal. Plus none of the characters in that game have interesting or unique character motivations or identities, so even if you could argue that she isn't designed with sex appeal in mind, she fails to meet Jim's criteria for that reason as well (though at least the male characters in the game are equally as uninteresting and under-developed).
Lucca - A supporting character, not a protagonist. Jim was specifically looking for playable protagonists.
Okami - The character is actually named Amaterasu, but I'd say that's probably a fair example that Jim may have overlooked.
Peacock - Her motivations center around being used as a test subject, which Jim would justifiably qualify as "power from trauma".
Double - See above.
Macha/NeoFio/Poshul/Sprigg - Not protagonists.
Shale - A DLC character and not a protagonist.
Kreia - Not a protagonist.

One example I thought of that Jim may have overlooked is Kazooie from Banjo-Kazooie, who could be argued as a supporting character, but I'd argue that she's the more active participant in the duo, particular in regards to gameplay, though obviously she has less at stake in terms of plot since it's not her sister that's been kidnapped. But it does seem a bit silly that we have to keep looking at non-humanoids to find valid examples.

And it may seem like splitting hairs for discounting many of your characters for not being protagonists, but part of the issue is that women would like to be able to directly identify with the character they has the most agency and direct focus within the story. They may like to see well-crafted female supporting characters, but when it's all they have, it starts to make them feel ignored, marginalized, and underestimated. It seems like there's an underlying hesitance to make a woman the central protagonist either due to concerns regarding whether or not their young male demographic would enjoy playing as a female character they don't find attractive, as though we would be afraid of identifying with a woman. As a dude, I find that assumption pretty demeaning. I don't need to find a female character sexy to want to play as her and I don't need to play as a male character to identify with the protagonist. I think game publishers need to stop overthinking it so much.

For starters, look up the definition of 'protagonist'. Here let me help:

protagonist: the leading character or one of the major characters in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional text.

So Kreia, Macha, NeoFio, Poshul, Sprigg, Lucca, and Shale are, in fact, Protagonists. Any Party member would be. Even non playable characters, like Joker from Mass Effect, would count as a Protagonist. Lucca especially, since Chrono dies half way through the game. Is there just no Protagonist at that point?

A character being DLC is entirely irrelevant.

The Trauma thing, well you might have me for those two.

From a narrative perspective, you may be right, but we're talking about video games here. It's possible for a game to have multiple protagonists, but in my mind, that would mean those characters would have to share all of the same means of control and prominence within the game and gameplay. To put it another way, the protagonist in Dragon Age is the main character because you can walk around as them, talk to people, and do a bunch of other things, but since you cannot do most of those things as Shale, she is rendered a supporting character. Shale is a character you talk to and command in combat. She only sticks around so long as she has a relationship and commitment to the main character. If she leaves, you don't get to play as her and see what happens on her solo adventures.

To put it yet another way, all those characters may be critically important to the plot, but you can't play as them in the same way you can play as the "true" protagonist.

That said, I had forgotten that Lucca was actually a playable character with no real significant gameplay differences when compared with Crono, so yeah, I guess she probably would fit Jim's criteria. However, while I haven't played "Chrono Cross", my understanding is that Serge is the central character throughout the whole game and the one used for navigation and managing the other playable characters, clearly making him the protagonist.

Then Jim shouldn't have used examples of non "true protagonists" in his video if he didn't want examples of them brought up in the comments.

 

[DataSnake]

What about Claire from Thomas Was Alone? She's a big blue square, hardly "conventionally attractive".

 

[Imp_Emissary]

:0 Wow. I didn't even know Vertigo was a woman. And she was my favorite in the game.

Neat Jim. Hope we get a newer example soon.

Spoiler: *cough*

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though.

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies (ie, something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.

Well, I suppose she doesn't count if she's not playable...

Damn it!

Ammy, save me!

*falls back on Ammy point*

Well, she isn't "traditionally" pretty, but I think she may be a bit to "good natured" for Jim's list.
Otherwise, I think she is a fine example of a good female character.

Thank God, for you, Jim. =w= b

 

[DiMono]

If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?
Why is the concept of Saints Row and other types of games such as MMOs completely discarded because theyre our creation not the developers?
Can then only good female characters exist if theyre created by the developer and not the player?

Way to completely miss the point. The point is that all male protagonists are not created equal, but all female protagonists are. It's not the existence of attractive female protagonists that is the problem, but the lack of variety. If male protagonists can be old and grizzled, then so too should female protagonists. That such protagonists are exceedingly rare is evidence that female protagonists are meant as eye candy, rather than actual characters.

 

[deathjavu]

Wait, so now this mythical female protagonist has to be a deep, emotional, intelligent, never relies on a man ever, is never affected by a man, and now has to be conventionally ugly on top of that. Good luck selling that game.


Put out an APB for a 4'6" tall, 350# woman with severe burn scars all over her face and body and missing one leg and make a game about her...what.... oh that's right real people are boring and nobody gives a shit accept the PC hookers who have to appeal to their base by vilifying the very thing they make their living from...shameful.

It's like every argument just gets more and more reasonable and logical.

Need a corn cob pipe for that strawman?

 

[Machine Man 1992]

Would broodmother count? Giant spider in Dota 2? She wants to kill all the heroes of the world to stop them trampling her baby spiders.

Except that protecting her large brood of babies can be as problematic a motivation as doing it for a man.

CITATION NEEDED.

Could you elaborate on this?

Older women are often portrayed in media as good for nothing but making babies or are defined entirely in relation to their children. Much the same way that young women are viewed as sex objects. This trope is less common (arguably not quite as bad), but is still harmful to women. It is part of the reason why women are expected to give up their careers in order to raise children.
This is one of the reasons why people had a problem with Other M.

How is showing her being protective of her offspring problematic? How is any of that harmful to women?

 

[Tombsite]

But even so appeasing this type of crowd just for the sake of appeasement actually would have a negative effect on the industry since the act of acting for the sake of action has and always will be incredibly anti-intelligent.
Its a secondary priority and should always be.
You make your game first and then if your game has room for a nontraditionally attractive female protagonist then go right ahead, i havent argued against anything else, just that id like my game primarily to be..well a game, and then that whole feminist thing can be shoehorned in if it wants to as long as it doesnt affect my enjoyment of the game really

Then I do not think anybody here really disagrees with you. Nobody want anything shoehorned in. People just want the barriers (publisher forced appeasement of 15-30 year old with males in particular) removed from the developers so that they can make the best games.

Again then my point still stands on that and that we need to let change happen isntead of complaing and yell for it. It will happen organically and it is happening still, but it also needs to happen not with the sole intent of removing said barriers but rather to create games that just really happen to challange them.
Lets primarily focus on the player and a good playing experience and then things i believe will come naturally from what we want and not from what we need.

So this is where you and I start to disagree. I do believe that complaining and trying to force change can be a good thing. The game industry has, in my opinion, proven again and again that they have a poor grasp of what their consumers want. They will happily take all the wrong lessons on what makes a game good/bad with out any sort of critical analysis. Sure they have the capability to learn but it is a very slow process with plenty of expensive missteps. Therefore I believe (and I guess a lot of other people) that we can speed up the process by pointing out their mistakes as loud and as publicly as possible.

Of course, being what it is, the game industry looks at these complaints as a threat to their bottom line rather than as advice. But it still has the desired effect so I guess it is worth it in the end.

 

[Ukomba]

Would broodmother count? Giant spider in Dota 2? She wants to kill all the heroes of the world to stop them trampling her baby spiders.

Except that protecting her large brood of babies can be as problematic a motivation as doing it for a man.

CITATION NEEDED.

Could you elaborate on this?

Older women are often portrayed in media as good for nothing but making babies or are defined entirely in relation to their children. Much the same way that young women are viewed as sex objects. This trope is less common (arguably not quite as bad), but is still harmful to women. It is part of the reason why women are expected to give up their careers in order to raise children.
This is one of the reasons why people had a problem with Other M.

How is showing her being protective of her offspring problematic? How is any of that harmful to women?

Oh you fool, don't you know? If a man is protective of something, he's objectifying them. If a woman is being protective of something, she's being objectified by them. It's sooooo obvious. [/sarcasm]

 

[Machine Man 1992]

Oh not this crap again.

I swear, Garme Jernolists are more predictable than the fucking tide.

We get it, there aren't as many female protagonists in games as there are men. The question is, who besides the histrionic SJW's of the world even care?

You say men aren't as conventionally attractive, and I have to ask, do you even know what women look for in men? What seems like a pile of grizzled manliness to us could be a steaming pile of attractive man-meat to a female.

Men and women have differing standards of attractiveness, and attempts to compare the two as if they were the same comes off as ignorant.

Actually, they've done studies on this. Generally the muscly roidbros of games are viewed as not terribly attractive.

Can't be arsed to go find it though. I get the feeling it would be a waste of time.

That's just the roided up dudes, what about less muscled, but still hairy guys like John Marsden?

I would usually use this space to say "that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence," if I didn't also know of the same study you are talking about.

Look for "6 reasons why women are just as shallow as men" on Cracked.

 

[ConanThe3rd]

Wait, so now this mythical female protagonist has to be a deep, emotional, intelligent, never relies on a man ever, is never affected by a man, and now has to be conventionally ugly on top of that. Good luck selling that game.


Put out an APB for a 4'6" tall, 350# woman with severe burn scars all over her face and body and missing one leg and make a game about her...what.... oh that's right real people are boring and nobody gives a shit accept the PC hookers who have to appeal to their base by vilifying the very thing they make their living from...shameful.

It's like every argument just gets more and more reasonable and logical.

Need a corn cob pipe for that strawman?

The criteria that Jim had put out (Specifically the "Evil" part) made it so that he could only end with his conclusion.

It's less "There's no non traditional female protagonists" (which is a problem but not to the extent put forth) and more "There's no non traditional female protagonists that suit my lazer pinpoint criteria"

It's The Shrew's tactics; bring out the incremental improvements the industry IS making and then dismiss them because you're not in the business of improvement but talking down on high.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?

Just because it is not an exclusive problems for games does not mean that games do not have to solve it as well. While it is true that women display a more varied view of what constitute an attractive man as opposed to what men thinks constitute an attractive woman, I highly doubt that was taken into consideration when designing the more diverse male characters.

Also it is rarely a good thing just to go "well can't fix that. That is just the way it is.". Would kinda lead to that stagnation of humanity's growth and all that.

I dont care whether the character is male, female, young or old. I just want a good game. Yes older women are consider less so than young woman....which is opposite to an older male. In a world were old woman try to be young, granted they are forced to, but its still the case. Age comes into it also. A 15 yr old ist going to play as a 30 yr old woman. An again a 30 yr old male would have no problem playing as a 30 yr old woman. Thing is we dont have this discussion when a movie companies makes a movie with a young well built guy showing his muscles off. Women love that in movies. Hell even older woman love Twilight because of the male actors. It goes both ways.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

Suggestion: Try to come up with some male protagonists that fit Jim's criteria and debunk them like this thread has been doing with possible female character candidates that Jim might have missed. I couldn't think of one off the top of my head. The guys from GTAV don't even fit his criteria. Might be worth a separate thread

Ah yes, [link]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/9966-The-Counterpoint[/link] this argument.

Wow, it hasn't gotten any more sensible in the interim time since that comic.

This isn't a vague complaint like "men sometimes are sexualized too" as that comic was intended to address but rather pointing out that the very specific list of traits Jim criticizes female characters for lacking is in fact lacking in characters of all genders, races, species, or whatever other possible category.

Again, I don't disagree with the Jim's sentiment that we could use a heck of a lot more diversity in protagonists. I just take issue with the way he made his point, because I found it to be flawed. I am not trying to tear down the argument, just provide constructive criticism and maybe provide another avenue to the discussion.

Sorry if that's not how things are supposed to be done here on the internet.

 

[Vicioussama]

Curious what you think about Maddox' take on women in games

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sexism_videogames

Kinda agree with his.

I have to agree with his logic more than what most of Jim has been saying. Granted, some of the points Jim has made, such as Elizabeth being removed from the box cover of Bioshock Infinite because she was a female is total BS, but Maddox makes some good points. And I hate agreeing with Maddox because even though he's funny, he's kind of a dick.

From what I can tell his dickish attitude is merely a persona he puts on for laughs on the internet/media/whatnot. But I don't know him personally so can't say for sure.

As for the bit with Bioshock Infinite? Ya, that's some bs.

 

[GonvilleBromhead]

I think the real problem is rather more basic: the lack of female writers in games.

It takes a very good (male) writer to write a realistic protagonist of the opposite sex - understandable considering that all of their interactions with women are, of course, from a male perspective. Of course, most excellent writers don't write for video games - and even a very good writer can cock it up massively (Ian Fleming's "The Spy who Loved Me" springs to mind)

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Woman love watching Thor for the muscles of the main actor. Same with twilight. Just the way things are. Not saying its right, its just the way things are. Just woman are more vocal than men. Me? Im a guy, dont give a shit if older woman get off on twilight. Or woman watch Thor shows his abs. Its entertainment. Its fantasy. Its not real. Isnt that the point of games? Stick to the real world of adverts, modelling and Photoshopping models into fake woman. Start there then games.

 

[DamianWorld]

Female Liltie, FF Crystal Chronicles series (see Rings of Fate), and Yuke for that matter in all the others.

BARBARIAN DIABLO 3, I can't stress that one enough. Not attractive, dev made protag.

Cream the rabbit, Sonic Advance game series

Panda, Tekken

Thinking a problem exists and then bending evidence to fit what you believe makes you a hack. I mean, ANY CHILD FEMALE PROTAG isn't attractive and is a different character type than you described. Did you include it? No. Because then you can't make your "funny" observation.

 

[THE_MUFFIN_MAN15]

Why are female characteristics always seen as "bad writing" or "generic" to you Jim? What I got from this video is that all female characters should only have traditional male motivations and attributes. Did I miss a hidden assumption somewhere along the line? This doesn't seem as uncontroversial as you make it seem

 

[RJ 17]

Suggestion: Try to come up with some male protagonists that fit Jim's criteria and debunk them like this thread has been doing with possible female character candidates that Jim might have missed. I couldn't think of one off the top of my head. The guys from GTAV don't even fit his criteria. Might be worth a separate thread

But that's kinda the point of what Jim was talking about: the range for male characters is much vaster than the range for female characters. Men can be old, young, grizzled, handsome, out-right pretty, badasses, goody two-shows, neutral, etc. They can have much more diversity in their character models and personalities, where as female playable characters are stuffed into narrow margins.

One of the big requirements that people are missing out with a lot of the suggestions in this thread is that a lot of them are bringing up "good" characters. To be fair, Jim doesn't specifically list in his 3 criteria that he was looking for bad/morally questionable females, but I'm pretty sure he meant to seeing as how that's one of the points he makes at the beginning of the episode (that playable females are almost always one of the good guys), and he also makes it a point to talk about how Vertigo was a wicked beast wanting to enslave the world, pointing out that in Primal Rage Vertigo is one of the "villains" characters you can fight as. And finding an unattractive, "evil", playable, not-motivated-by-man-or-trauma female character is very tricky, implying that almost all female characters that are playable are "good", conventionally attractive, and are motivated by a man or trauma. They almost all fit into that mold, while male characters can be pretty much anything the developer wants them to be.

That said, I have seen some good examples of females that do fit Jim's criteria throughout this topic, but I think the video is more about making the point that the majority of female characters fit into that mold, not challenging us to try and one-up him by coming up with other characters that might meet the criteria of this exercise.