Jimquisition: Vertigo

[Tombsite]

Snip

Of course because its such a rational and constructive way to debate to simply call out strawmen left and right because you simply do not have the tools to logically counter any of them *pats your head*

1. It does but only if the developer intended for that obviously, hence why i think its so strange we discard MMOs and Saints Row for some reason because it, oh i dunno, counters this point?
2.More options=/=Good Would tetris be anymore enjoyable if we put a little skirt on the L-block?
3.That is a point but again youre failing to see the bigger picture of: It suits the game, its consistent with the gameplay and its also something that makes sense, if you can do that with female protagonists then sure go right ahead, so far i havent seen much prodoctivity from your type of people, only complaining, and no action whatsoever except crying social justice on tumblr.
4.Its in fact a very high risk, and not chance, that it will matter, since its completely trivial, again, the whole look of something vs its practical use.
Steam controller looks shit
Steam controller is therefore shit
I like to play using the controller and look at the monitor rather than on the controller but ok

Bringing in the look of a piece of hardware is in fact a straw-man. but lets not get bogged down in semantics.

1. Because Jim chose that it had to be a developer designed character. Because that would mean that the artist behind the game envisioned a certain character and not just a blank slate for the player to do what ever with. As this is about calling the developers out it is a very relevant that we discard them.

2. Putting a skirt on the L-block is a choice. An option is something you can chose not to use thus an option can never be bad. Again, in fairness, I'll give you that it is possible that all the added options do not increase the amount of good. But this is the exception most of the time. The point still remains that it is most likely that more options means better end results.

3. (Your poor use of structure makes your argument unclear but I will try.) Again Jim is not arguing against using attractive people. He is providing proof that apparently women can only be attractive. Why does it make more sense that all females in fighting games are skinny models and not one of them is a densely build fighter with a broken nose?

4. Yes looks do take a back seat to functionality but that does not make them irrelevant. Of course the game has to be good and function. But that is not something that has anything to do with the character design. As it takes the same graphics to make an "ugly" woman as it does to make an attractive woman,I do not see how this is an issue.

 

[RJ 17]

Spoiler: *cough*

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though.

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies (ie, something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.

Well, I suppose she doesn't count if she's not playable...

Damn it!

Ammy, save me!

*falls back on Ammy point*

Along with one requirement being that the character has to be playable, I believe another one of the requirements was that the character in question has to be bad, or at least morally questionable.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

What about Lizzie from Rampage?

Updates aside, Rampage predates Vertigo by 8 years.* Jim was looking up the most recent example.

I'd say her origin (Past trauma) and true human form rule her out.

Also this.

*[sub]Rampage came out in 1986. Primal Rage came out in 1994.[/sub]

 

[Rastrelly]

What a crap.
---I---
1) SC1 Kerrigan after going Zerg.
2) Fucking Chun Li, who is DEFINITELY far from general sex-appeal damsel state.
3) American McGee's Alice. Yeah, that sexy bod of hers, ya all recall?
4) Faith from Mirror's Edge, who can be considered attractive by some, but faaaar from being sexy doll
5) Kate Walker, someone? There were a lot of people going into onanistic rage because of that chick?
6) And that "artistic crap" - The Path, mmm?
7) And Chell from Portal? Again, she can be considered attractive at best and the only man in her life was Companion Cube.
8) Isabelle and Frida from HOMMV.
9) Urban Chaos, anyone?
10) Giants: Citizen Kabuto. Episode 3, OK?
11) Thomas Was Alone? Square girls, anyone? LOTS of 'em!
12) Major Parker from Ground Control? One hell of damsel in distress!
13) Karan S'Jet from Homeworld? remember her? She's the protagonist in part one!
14) That girl from Keepsake? She's not a masterpiece character - I don't even remember her name - but she was NOT an eyecandy.
15) Other example - Ariah from Earth 2160.
And it's just a quick pick from my memory, where only PC games are! Just! Fucking! Dig!
---II---
Stop! This! Nonsensical! Bullshit! There are STATISTICS. AAA titles are played by male audience! Change fucking player demographics and you'll see your fucking changes! Supply reacts to a fucking demand, not vice versa!

 

[Lieju]

I loved that game as a kid. But since I couldn't understand English I decided the raptor I always played was a girl. As was the red farting monkey. She and the red ape were a brother and sister in my made-up story for the game.

But, yeah, even as a kid I liked characters who had some history behind them, who had seen things and gone through shit. Or nerdy scietists. And guess how many female characters like that I found?

Just wanted to add this, Anita would hate this revelation a bit more than you Jim. She hates seeing women used as villian characters.

Source?

(And why should we care what Anita thinks? However, since people keep claiming she said all kinds of stuff she never did, source would be nice.)

 

[88chaz88]

Rationality can be found behind the door to your left.
Good luck in future posts and have a wonderful day

If you really were being sarcastic then why the claim that I'm being irrational?

 

[Bryan Hinson]

First thing i thought of was Angelica from "Rugrats- Totally Angelica" a greedy, narcissistic girl who seeks only to gather more stuff for herself so she can be in a fashion show to make herself famous.......

In another game Angelica enslaved the other babies to perform in her own circus too, but i forget if she was playable...

 

[nyysjan]

Recette from Recettear is a pretty damn good female character in my estimation, as well as the female protags from other Carpe Fulgar games. Not exactly mainstream, though, I suppose, even if Recettear has quite the reach now.

Hmmm, generically cute anime girl who seems to be a child (or very, very short, going by google image search), not sure if that counts.

 

[Tombsite]

Snip

Of course because its such a rational and constructive way to debate to simply call out strawmen left and right because you simply do not have the tools to logically counter any of them *pats your head*

1. It does but only if the developer intended for that obviously, hence why i think its so strange we discard MMOs and Saints Row for some reason because it, oh i dunno, counters this point?
2.More options=/=Good Would tetris be anymore enjoyable if we put a little skirt on the L-block?
3.That is a point but again youre failing to see the bigger picture of: It suits the game, its consistent with the gameplay and its also something that makes sense, if you can do that with female protagonists then sure go right ahead, so far i havent seen much prodoctivity from your type of people, only complaining, and no action whatsoever except crying social justice on tumblr.
4.Its in fact a very high risk, and not chance, that it will matter, since its completely trivial, again, the whole look of something vs its practical use.
Steam controller looks shit
Steam controller is therefore shit
I like to play using the controller and look at the monitor rather than on the controller but ok

Bringing in the look of a piece of hardware is in fact a straw-man. but lets not get bogged down in semantics.

1. Because Jim chose that it had to be a developer designed character. Because that would mean that the artist behind the game envisioned a certain character and not just a blank slate for the player to do what ever with. As this is about calling the developers out it is a very relevant that we discard them.

2. Putting a skirt on the L-block is a choice. An option is something you can chose not to use thus an option can never be bad. Again, in fairness, I'll give you that it is possible that all the added options do not increase the amount of good. But this is the exception most of the time. The point still remains that it is most likely that more options means better end results.

3. (Your poor use of structure makes your argument unclear but I will try.) Again Jim is not arguing against using attractive people. He is providing proof that apparently women can only be attractive. Why does it make more sense that all females in fighting games are skinny models and not one of them is a densely build fighter with a broken nose?

4. Yes looks do take a back seat to functionality but that does not make them irrelevant. Of course the game has to be good and function. But that is not something that has anything to do with the character design. As it takes the same graphics to make an "ugly" woman as it does to make an attractive woman,I do not see how this is an issue.

4.Then why even bring it up as an issue if even you will argue that it isnt, goddamn, the contradictions are strong with this one /facedesk

Right then

Good luck in future posts and have a wonderful day

I am pretty sure I did not bring it up, and rebuking it does not really mean it stops being a straw-man. Also you forgot rebuke any of the real point. Seeing as they are facedek worthy I assume you can do this with ease?

 

[RedmistSM]

New Dante is attractive?

 

[freaper]

DAT ASS

-id

OT: While not a playable character, I think Kormir from Guild Wars: Nightfall might fit most other (if not all) of your requirements. I know, it's a stretch, and yes, we should definitely see more well-written female protagonists, but at least it's something...right?
This probably falls back onto "more female writer/developers", which Arenanet has a few of in leading roles. I'm banking on 5-10 more years before more interesting women join the videogame parade.

And then another 20 for non-caucasians...

 

[Steve2911]

Fuck your PC bullshit. Annoying as fuck, it's like MovieBob praising Antita Scamiisian.

Why even post if you hold such ancient views? What is your problem?

 

[Tombsite]

Hmmm how about Xel'lotath from Eternal Darkness... then again... 'she' and Vertigo have too much in common.

http://eternaldarkness.wikia.com/wiki/Xel%27lotath

She is not player controlled.

Then of course doesnt count because we have to think very very very narrowmindedly here and exclude all types of characters except for the playable ones

Why yes, seeing as that was the entire point of his argument. The lack of no attractive female protagonistsin video games.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Spoiler: *cough*

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though.

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies (ie, something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.

Well, I suppose she doesn't count if she's not playable...

Damn it!

Ammy, save me!

*falls back on Ammy point*

Along with one requirement being that the character has to be playable, I believe another one of the requirements was that the character in question has to be bad, or at least morally questionable.

Ammy can be morally questionable!

Just look how unimpressed she is at the end of Mr Orange's dance!


[HEADING=1]how you not love his sick moves ammy, you monster![/HEADING]

 

[Harlemura]

Spoiler: What about Skye from Sanctum?

She's the leader of a squad that're protecting people or cities or something (I don't actually know), but that means she's both not doing it for a man, because she's the one in charge, but also not doing it just to be heroic, because it's her job.
I don't know if she'd count as too attractive, but I think her scars and kinda grey complexion mover her towards the Gears of War grizzled end of the scale.
But then I don't know if she doesn't count because she doesn't have enough backstory.

Man, these credentials are pretty tough to fill. Wouldn't it be kinda hard to find a man that fits the reverse? Say, a stereotypically attractive guy that's working for his own motivation that has nothing to do with a woman? I know there'd be more of these than there are women that Jim was talking about, but it's still an awfully specific list.

Oh, I just thought.

Spoiler: How about Street Fighter's Makoto?

Or is it cheating to pick someone that most people think is a boy until they've been playing the game for a while?

 

[Edl01]

I'd like to use this point to point out Tomoko Kuroki from Watamote. That's right people, females video games have gotten so bad even anime now has better female leads...

 

[Steve Waltz]

Curious what you think about Maddox' take on women in games

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sexism_videogames

Kinda agree with his.

I have to agree with his logic more than what most of Jim has been saying. Granted, some of the points Jim has made, such as Elizabeth being removed from the box cover of Bioshock Infinite because she was a female is total BS, but Maddox makes some good points. And I hate agreeing with Maddox because even though he's funny, he's kind of a dick.

 

[Pat Hulse]

Hmm, well here's a list of characters I think meet that criteria:

Amazon in Dragon's Crown.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
Okami from Okami.
Peacock from skull girls.
Double from skull girls.
Macha from Chrono Cross.
NeoFio from Chrono Cross.
Poshul from Chrono Cross.
Sprigg from Chrono Cross.
Shale from Dragon Age.
Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2.

That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head from games I've played.

Amazon - Sexualized, impractical outfit. While not "traditionally" attractive from a mainstream attraction, she definitely fits within fetishistic character design tropes popular in certain niches within Japanese entertainment. She may not be everyone's cup of tea, but trust me, she's designed for sex appeal. Plus none of the characters in that game have interesting or unique character motivations or identities, so even if you could argue that she isn't designed with sex appeal in mind, she fails to meet Jim's criteria for that reason as well (though at least the male characters in the game are equally as uninteresting and under-developed).
Lucca - A supporting character, not a protagonist. Jim was specifically looking for playable protagonists.
Okami - The character is actually named Amaterasu, but I'd say that's probably a fair example that Jim may have overlooked.
Peacock - Her motivations center around being used as a test subject, which Jim would justifiably qualify as "power from trauma".
Double - See above.
Macha/NeoFio/Poshul/Sprigg - Not protagonists.
Shale - A DLC character and not a protagonist.
Kreia - Not a protagonist.

One example I thought of that Jim may have overlooked is Kazooie from Banjo-Kazooie, who could be argued as a supporting character, but I'd argue that she's the more active participant in the duo, particular in regards to gameplay, though obviously she has less at stake in terms of plot since it's not her sister that's been kidnapped. But it does seem a bit silly that we have to keep looking at non-humanoids to find valid examples.

And it may seem like splitting hairs for discounting many of your characters for not being protagonists, but part of the issue is that women would like to be able to directly identify with the character that has the most agency and direct focus within the story. They may like to see well-crafted female supporting characters, but when it's all they have, it starts to make them feel ignored, marginalized, and underestimated. It seems like there's an underlying hesitance to make a woman the central protagonist either due to concerns regarding whether or not their young male demographic would enjoy playing as a female character they don't find attractive, as though we would be afraid of identifying with a woman. As a dude, I find that assumption pretty demeaning. I don't need to find a female character sexy to want to play as her and I don't need to play as a male character to identify with the protagonist. I think game publishers need to stop overthinking it so much.

 

[Little Duck]

Would broodmother count? Giant spider in Dota 2? She wants to kill all the heroes of the world to stop them trampling her baby spiders.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

Hmm, well here's a list of characters I think meet that criteria:

Amazon in Dragon's Crown.

I think she was designed to be attractive, considering she is supposed to be the ass to the wizard's "It's magic, I don't have to explain tits." Designed to be attractive, and actually being attractive is another matter entirely (that art style, plus the low amount of frames in the animation, makes my eyes BLEED).

Lucca from Chrono Trigger.

Possibly fits, although from what I read, it does sound like she may be doing things for Chrono or her father. Not sure, didn't play the game.

Okami from Okami.

Fits well. Although by all accounts Okami is a good looking wolf.

Peacock from skull girls.

Fits perfectly. Hooray for murderous cartoons.

Double from skull girls.

This may or may not count, depending on what Jim meant by "doing it for a man." Could easily be a deconstruction of this motivation, since she really, REALLY hates being mind @#$^ed into doing what Brain Drain wants.

Macha from Chrono Cross.
NeoFio from Chrono Cross.
Poshul from Chrono Cross.
Sprigg from Chrono Cross.

They may or may not count. Never played Chrono cross.

Shale from Dragon Age.

Fits.

Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2.

Man that one is ugly. XD
Fits.

Bombette from Paper Mario.
Lady Bow from Paper Mario.
Watt from Paper Mario.
Sushie from Paper Mario.
Goombella from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Flurrie from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Vivian from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Ms. Mowz from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door

Most of them fit, although a few of them kind of are doing it for Mario, although the fan art seems to think otherwise. X_X