Jimquisition: Vertigo

Jimothy Sterling

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Daystar Clarion said:




I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!
The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though. :)

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies ( something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.
 

Weaver

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Daystar Clarion said:




I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!
Amaterasu is a pretty good choice! She also, despite being a dog, has even some personality to her expressed via body language. That's more than you can say of Vertigo!

There is also the Broodmother from DOTA. She's really just a big spider though.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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Just wanted to add this, Anita would hate this revelation a bit more than you Jim. She hates seeing women used as villian characters.
 
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Mcoffey said:
Daystar Clarion said:




I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!
The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though. :)

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies (ie, something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.
Well, I suppose she doesn't count if she's not playable...

Damn it!

Ammy, save me!

*falls back on Ammy point*
 

bafrali

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Huh. Your ideal woman is actually huge skank Jim. Don't think I haven't seen that victory pose. I will be damned if she wasn't turning her back just to show her lovely lady humps. Waving the tail if you will.

Well I was expecting Miss Pacman to appear then I realized she is just a distaff counter-part to her more popular male character and she doesn't really have motivations of her own and actually depicted with make up, high heel shoes and a boa in her concept arts.

Maybe Sarah Kerrigan in her new design but abominable high heels truly ruin that image...and inexplicably well preserved face and overall features that survived the mutation process.

A long way to go indeed...
 

88chaz88

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Monxeroth said:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sarcasm

There ya go, the joke flew right over your head like WOOSH :U
I'm not even going to take it as sarcasm even after you claim it is. Seems like more of a copout than anything.
 

Steve2911

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Yeah I too can not think of a single example. I was tempted to say Ellie from that bit where you play as her, but I suppose I'm only not thinking of her as attractive because she's too young for me to see her that way. She is the game's protagonist in my eyes though, but I can't honestly count her when she's only playable for an hour of it.

And discounting player made characters is important, because a fully rounded and crafted character as part of a linear narrative is dependant on things like gender, race, appearance and whether they go for Paragon or Renegade points. If the developers didn't create a character in a certain way (female, not conventionally attractive etc) then how can it possibly count as a progressive protagonist?

Still trying to think up more examples as I type. Maybe there's some fairly obscure indie games or Japanese stuff that I don't know of... But as far as Western AAA I'm drawing a thousand blanks.
 

Tombsite

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Monxeroth said:
Tombsite said:
Monxeroth said:
If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?
Why is the concept of Saints Row and other types of games such as MMOs completely discarded because theyre our creation not the developers?
Can then only good female characters exist if they're created by the developer and not the player?
They can, Jim doesn't have a problem with that. The problem is that apparently they can't be anything else than attractive. That is a problem.
Thats up for debate however and not an objective fact, especially if you just consider that to be the one part that matters to a player, regardless if its being marketed to you as such. Its a woman, shes attractive.
I like to compare this debate to the new steam controller rage:

oh my god look how bad this controller looks it must be shit.

While im thinking instead: I wonder what it feels like to use it for play though since i will use my controller for a game and not to look at.
Wow you really do not have much of a point here besides straw-men but lets just pick it apart anyway.
If a woman can only have a certain type look that limits options. As having more options is always better (this by the way is an objective fact) then having less is at least not good. If we look at the male protagonists and see that they have, in fact, benefited from diversity it stands to reason that female protagonists would as well. The most likely conclusion is therefore that only attractive females is bad (but if you have to be facetious, and you most likely will be, then there is a very small chance that this does not matter).
 

Jimothy Sterling

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erttheking said:
Monxeroth said:
Tombsite said:
Monxeroth said:
If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?
Why is the concept of Saints Row and other types of games such as MMOs completely discarded because theyre our creation not the developers?
Can then only good female characters exist if they're created by the developer and not the player?
They can, Jim doesn't have a problem with that. The problem is that apparently they can't be anything else than attractive. That is a problem.
Thats up for debate however and not an objective fact, especially if you just consider that to be the one part that matters to a player, regardless if its being marketed to you as such. Its a woman, shes attractive.
I like to compare this debate to the new steam controller rage:

oh my god look how bad this controller looks it must be shit.

While im thinking instead: I wonder what it feels like to use it for play though since i will use my controller for a game and not to look at.
Look you can split hairs as much as you want, but it's pretty hard to deny that a massive majority of female characters are designed with the intention of people trying to make them look good in mind. And a good looking character isn't a bad thing, a lot of people really like Mitsuru from Persona 3 and she's hardly lacking, but good looking for female is become ing what "White, brown haired thirty something" is for male. There is nothing wrong with a character like that but the sheer number of them is ridiculous and something ELSE would be nice.
Truth=/=Urgency

While its debatably somewhat true, the impact it has or the urgency of said subject isnt objectively problematic in itself, because again i must ask the question in that case: Does the opposite matter/not matter, and if so, why/why not?

I havent denied anything but neither am i so gullible to simply accept a black and white scenario without contrast.
First of all the fallacy that appearently then according to most arguments vs this, is well, we get a "non-traditionally attractive female protagonist" and then to break it down first of all. Well what constitutes one ideal over another, as you must be aware both male and female gamers find some "non-traditionally attractive males" to be appealing in games. The other problem comes with ambiguous genders and well, if it is a female but we cant tell, is it a female? If a tree falls in the forest without anyone around to hear it does it still make a noise, basically?
Then the third question of course becomes, protagonist, according to me? you? what about anti-heroes then or npcs or other characters in a game that have equal amount of impact on the game as you the player does?
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Daystar Clarion said:
Mcoffey said:
Daystar Clarion said:




I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!
The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though. :)

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies (ie, something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.
Well, I suppose she doesn't count if she's not playable...

Damn it!

Ammy, save me!

*falls back on Ammy point*
She is a very pretty wolf spirit! Ain't no fleas or mange there!
 

Jimothy Sterling

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88chaz88 said:
Monxeroth said:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sarcasm

There ya go, the joke flew right over your head like WOOSH :U
I'm not even going to take it as sarcasm even after you claim it is. Seems like more of a copout than anything.
Rationality can be found behind the door to your left.
Good luck in future posts and have a wonderful day
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Seriously Jim? Vertigo aint [email protected]???
I was hoping that magazine from last time had enlightened you.

Seriously now: :p . I actually would love a game where we get to be a giant Chtulu Cobra-esque monster that kills the world or something. That would be badass.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?
 

Ipsen

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<3 Primal Rage! Talon rocks! I have to admit, it scared 5-year old me more than Mortal Kombat 2 did, in the gore department.

OT, I just wish games had more context. In a world where the conflict controls the world like Gears of War, there's little reason for the women to look like total babes. In a rich or peaceful society, I could see more attractive people all around, since women (and men) would have the time and luxury to do so.

No protags here, but Fallout 3 portrayed this better than most in my book; it might be just the models, but I got the impression that atom-bomb-ruined DC did little to improve the looks of women.
 

Chessrook44

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Frankly I agree with those who bring up Amaterasu. Sure she's a very pretty character design (But then the whole game is a very pretty character design) but I don't think she really counts as "Traditionally attractive".
 

Andy Shandy

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Daystar Clarion said:




I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!
As people have already said The Boss isn't a playable character (yet!), although Ammy's a good shout. The only bit she might trip up at is that she might be seen as being told what to do by a "man", Issun. Although I'd say that would be a tad harsh.

How about Chell, from Portal? At least in the first one, she was just trying to survive GladOS. And I wouldn't call her particularly attractive in the game.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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I have only one challenge, and that's with the idea that it's regressive for female protagonists to have personal trauma's in their past or present. It can be overused, a cliche even (although I'd argue that if it is a cliche it's one that more than traverses the sexes). However, doesn't it just make complete sense for your protagonist to have something emotionally powerful to motivate them? Isn't that kind of how the whole concept of motivation works? I'm just trying to better understand what you're suggesting, because it sounds like the alternative would be to have a female protagonist who does things for no other reason than that their role in the story demands it of them, which sounds more like taking away their personality than giving them more of it.

Also, 'seek beauty'? You're not helping CAPTCHA.
 

webkilla

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I do wonder what the idea with the 'new eyes' are - but ok

As per this weeks topic:

...ya I got nothing. I can see why player-customized characters are written off, although I'd hold that while such logic doesn't apply to games like most MMOs, Saints Row and whatnot - then the mass effect games should be allowed to count as legit examples

I mean, there you can costumize the fem-shep's appearance, but her behavior is locked down to what the game allows you to do - and there in comes the writing and game mechanics, more so than MMOs or sandbox games like Saint's row more random character behavior. (even if it might be fun to imagine randomly rampaging around on the Citadel...)

then again - you could argue that shepard is a tricky example, since the female/male choice almost doesn't matter at all - the character behaving in pretty much the same way no matter way, so there's almost no unique feminine qualities to fem-shep
 
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Andy Shandy said:
Daystar Clarion said:




I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!
As people have already said The Boss isn't a playable character (yet!), although Ammy's a good shout. The only bit she might trip up at is that she might be seen as being told what to do by a "man", Issun. Although I'd say that would be a tad harsh.

How about Chell, from Portal? At least in the first one, she was just trying to survive GladOS. And I wouldn't call her particularly attractive in the game.
Issun isn't a man, Issun is Issun.

Besides, Ammy always stops paying attention when he goes of on one anyway, she doesn't so much listen to him, as tolerate him.