Jimquisition: Vertigo

Quadocky

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Laurie Barnes said:
Mcoffey said:
Daystar Clarion said:




I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!
The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though. :)

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies ( something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.
I think that bit about most games being a male empowerment fantasy might be the root problem here actually. I just thought about all the games that I love, and a fair majority of them are in fact male empowerment fantasies. So that makes me wonder, what would a female empowerment fantasy look like? Do any even exist?

I'm not saying making a few games that are focus tested for women the same way COD is for men is the answer, or not inherently sexist, but I must admit curiosity for what the result might be.

Perhaps the Mighty and Benevolent Jim Sterling can field this one after he is done with Season Passes.
Going by what my sister's preferences are, good 'Female empowerment fantasies' are essentially the same as 'male' ones. They essentially amount to cool characters who are strong enough to cause a measurable amount of change in the world/narrative/whathaveyou in which they exist.
 

Flunk

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Tera from Final Fantasy 6 / 3. Yes I realize that game is just as old and yes I realize that it's possible that she's very attractive, but the graphics aren't good enough to make it out.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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Nurb said:
The husbands are also dumb, often dumber than their children. It's considered anti-woman to portray women as a fat, dumb wife in a marriage on TV. She always has to be the smart one that can insult or hit her husband when the script calls for it.
Often, but the flip-side is that many of the women are dumb in bimbo-ish ways, and when they are "smart" it tends to be more "street smart" or "emotionally smart" or whatever you want to call it. The husbands are often portrayed as intellectually smart - they're doctors, or nerds or whatever, but are bumbling when it comes to "common sense" or "understanding women" etc. Consider The Big Bang Theory, for example, or The Cosby Show, and of course the classic example - Married With Children, which is interesting because it both parodies the stereotype while also playing the stereotype directly.

Speaking of TV references (but on another topic) - Focus Groups. The Simpsons has parodied this brilliantly, as has The Daily Show. Both parodies match my experience with focus groups - most of them are terribly designed, and are only looking for the answers the company wants, not real feedback. The same is true of many "customer satisfaction" and other product surveys, where you are left unable to express how you actually feel about a product, and only have a narrow range of responses that often aren't even applicable to my experience of the product.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/wZzY3PVvLj4

http://www.youtube.com/embed/IyI-eI5iJSM
 

maximara

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The one issue I have always had with this topic is that video games, like all other visual media, are catering to the values society itself promotes. Aren't these medias merely mirrors that show what we value in men and women in society?

How many anti-hero females are there in movies and comics that don't look like pin up girls or supermodels? In fact, how many females in movies and comics would be excluded by Jim's criteria?

And that is the problem--video games are merely a reflection on societal views.
 

n00beffect

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HA! Hilariously-sad and vice-versa... I agree with this vid, it's absolutely redonkulous, but I believe there may be a simple explanation behind it all (and by the way, moral crusaders, notice how I say explanation and not excuse, mmmm'kay?):

Gaming has been around now for yonks - true. However, mainstream gaming hasn't. Gaming, as you remember, used to be a sub-culture in and of its own, and gamers (male or female) were never actually considered to even exist in (and by) the mainstream ethos, other then when they were called upon to take the role of a murderous maniac of some sort, who used to play contra and then killed a whole school of kids, or whatever. So, in a way, 10 years ago (if we are to be generous) somewhat marked the 'official birth' of gaming into mainstream culture, and people actually started paying attention to it, but we'll get back to that later, as my *genius* theory unfolds.

Now, I may be wrong about this, but if I am in fact right in assuming that gaming, before it became mainstream, used to be mostly dominated by men (or at least, openly; men [or rather, boys] at the time were less reluctant to showcase their interest in games), then, following the steps of logic and mathematical statistics, that would indicate that alpha-males among our majority of bullied and secluded-from-society, hermit-like gamers are in fact the developers and designers of the games of today. So, logically, the games that do come out today, with their 'complex' stories and what-not, are expected to have self-aggrandizing, author-surrogate, ultra-masculine characters; while, in contrast to that very, very few good female characters. It makes sense, when you put it into context: games created by shunned, awkward, isolated hacker-like teens of the 80s and 90s, in whose paradigm girls rarely existed, are meant to have what? Bullshit male protagonists, of course - it makes sense; and, subsequently lacking, over-sexualized, two-dimensional cardboard-cutout female protagonists.

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not defending the industry here with its bullshit practices, nor am I aiming to offend any gamers from that time period (I myself am a 90s kid). I'm not trying to excuse anything, I'm just trying to explain it, and frankly, this explanation is the only one that makes sense to me; this is the only explanation that can account for the ridiculous behaviour - both direct and indirect - we see from our beloved developers, time and again: when they release games that frankly insult the very concept of the female sex, or when they come out with absurd claims that if they happen to make their protagonists female, that would damage their sales and piss-off their 'main demographic', it speaks of a certain mentality which, unless put into some (albeit grossly over-generalized and over-simplified) context, makes no bloody, f*cking sense, what-so-ever, and seems as though can belong only to a bad James Bond villain.

The developers, designers, and overall heads of gaming projects today, are in fact kids - because that's the way they brought themselves up - here I shall invoke the bullshit phrase: 'The stereotype exists for a reason', and judging by their actions and by their products, it most certainly does exist, if anything.

There is another reason why I brought up mainstream gaming to begin with, and that is because I often hear people compare gaming to film, i.e.: 'Oh, look at film! Look how much better they treat their protagonists/ and/or have better story arcs/ and/or are far more sophisticated regarding sexual, religious, whatever ideologies./ and/or is far more respected' - and yes, those are all valid points, however to tie this to the topic: Film is more respected and developed as an art form, because film was always mainstream. Film was always handled by people far more astute than our "elite" in gaming. Film, unlike gaming, was never obscure or just a geeky sub-culture. And, while it's true that there was a time when Hollywood portrayed women as empty vessels and mere male-inspired love interests; and, taking into account that Hollywood was, in fact, *slightly* late in catching onto relevant female's rights movements, etc., film always had to seem respectable, because film dealt with many issues, such as the MPAA (the Hayes Act, etc.) and film's development couldn't possibly be compared to gaming, because film had to progress far quicker than gaming, and always aimed to do so, while gaming didn't. So, what is my point in all this? It goes thus: What we are doing right now, the fact that there are people out there, like Jim Sterling, who point out our mistakes and follies as a culture, is good, and hopefully, all we need as a culture that aims to be seen as not-backward, is time. The developers/designers/heads and CEO's of today's industry will in fact step down at one point, and we can all at least hope that the next generation of game development will be a far better, more-inclusive and respected era, than the one we are living in right now.

However, that being said, my other, slightly darker point is: What we see today, the games that come out, and all the silliness - it is to be fully expected. Not excused, but expected. We are the by-products of our volition, and ultimately, ourselves - there is little we can do to teach an old dog new, more politically-correct tricks...

Side note: In this little exposé/mini-thesis of mine, I only address Western gaming culture, and I don't really address my remarks to our Eastern friends, since I am even more poorly versed in their development, as of now.
 

Aardvaarkman

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uanime5 said:
Care to explain why so many women want to be a princess and so few want to be Rambo. Could it be because the vast majority of women do have similar tastes? That would explain why chick-flicks appeal mainly to women, while action movies don't.
I haven't noticed this. Most women I know don't want to be either. Great false dichotomy/strawman, though.

I assume you have links to the studies on this topic, given how frequently you bring the idea of such evidence up?
 

I.Muir

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We seriously don't even have the evil housewife villain in video games? I mean if they are not taking advantage of the existing accepted story lines then... what the hell. For some reason I doubt that there is any lack of imaginative plot lines out there but rather it's still the heads of publishing from Walt Disney's era that don't like the idea of doing anything risky in order to rake in their paycheck.

What video games need first and foremost isn't to pander to anybody in particular but to have a little bloody variety. That if they find a niche that they realize they should stick to it and not continuously trying to attract call of duty twelvies who are possibly the worst fan base in existence.
 

Mrkillhappy

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Yeah final some love for Primal Rage.

OT: It is a sad statement that the only female protagonist that falls outside of the stereotype isn't even human though to be fair a giant serpent monster is possibly the coolest character design ever.
 

Black Reaper

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If Justice from Guilty Gear(the first one) could count as a protagonist, she would probably fit the bill
Most people think Justice is male because of that codpiece and some bad translating, it's like a reverse Bridget

And Justice is actually a deeper character than she appears at first sight, as you can see from Ky's ending

I also wonder where Saya from Saya no Uta would fall, while her main motivations are finding her father and living a happy life with Fuminori, she also wants to do that thing she did in the true ending(in the one where Ryoko narrates the epilogue)
And what of her appearance?, would the way she looks like in Fuminri's mind count?, or the way she actually looks?
 

Sutter Cane

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SonOfVoorhees said:
Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?
but isn't that sort of like saying that there's no need to focus on preventing violence in schools because violence is a problem in real life as well? Just because other media has a similar problem doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix it in games.
 

MB202

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There's this new Ubisoft game called Child of Light coming out soon that stars a female protagonist... Though she is a child, so I don't know if that applies...
 

Aardvaarkman

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uanime5 said:
You need a citation to tell you that little girls prefer to be princesses and women prefer chick flicks? Have you never met a woman before?
Firstly, you're equating little girls to grown women and men? Your comparison was between princesses and Rambo - two entirely different age groups. Few women maintain their princess fantasies into adulthood. Furthermore, such media, toys, and gender roles are often pushed on children by their parents. Little girls wanting to be proncesses probably has as much to do with what their parents want, rather than what the children want.

But again, completely out of scope, because we are presumably talking about grown-ass gamers, not little children.

As for the chick flicks, yes, I'd like to see your citation on that. Lots of women hate chick flicks, and there are some guys who love them. In my (equally lacking in evidence as your claim) experience, women these days are probably more likely to go to an action film, a horror, or serious drama, as they are to go to a romantic comedy. I really don't think that genre is that popular these days.

Finally here's a study of movie preferences based on race, age, and gender. They found that women prefer romance; while men prefer action and sci-fi.
http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/sfischo/media3.html
Firstly: That study is over 16 years old. A lot has changed in that time.

Secondly: The top two most popular films among women were not "chick flicks."
 

Aardvaarkman

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Velocir_X said:
Biology. Men HAVE to be risk takers to reproduce, so they tend to prefer things that glamorize risk taking. Women NEED resources to survive past reproduction, so they prefer things that glamorize having material wealth or being the object of dotage or affection.
But we're well past the point where we need to reproduce to survive. In fact, excess reproduction could endanger our species.

Oh, and could you explain why men HAVE to be risk takers in order to reproduce? There are plenty of boring, play it safe guys out there who are doing just fine at reproducing. In fact, I would expect most women to want stability and reliability in their mate if they want to have children these days. I don't know many women who would choose to have children with a reckless drunk-driver with a risky job, over someone dependable and safe.

Women and Men like different things because of their biology.
Proof? As far as I'm aware, the nature vs. nurture debate has not been solved.

Stop being so dense.
Maybe you should think a little more deeply before you start throwing around insults at people who might hold different opinions. Note that at no point did I ever claim that biology couldn't be a factor. Yet you seem so cocksure that it is the only factor, even though that hasn't been shown by science yet.

How do you explain women who don't want to have children, and like risk-taking, and men who love children and are nursing and risk-averse? There's no shortage of those examples to go around.
 

Pat Hulse

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uanime5 said:
Pat Hulse said:
And tell me, how do they find these people? Could it be that they just approach people based on their assumptions of their demographic? Could it be that they overlook women, assuming they probably don't play games?
They have these things called forums, which are located on websites. These allow them to talk with their customers. They can also hire people for this focus group and exclude anyone who doesn't play this genre of games.
How many marketing executives do you think read their game forums on a regular basis? I think you give them too much credit.

uanime5 said:
I told you you were talking out of your ass because that was the best-case scenario. Honestly, I was being polite. But clearly you're being serious, so yeah, I guess you really are this unbelievably stupid.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. You shouldn't assume that your opinions are automatically correct.
Wow. Just wow.

uanime5 said:
What were the heroics in "Hunger Games"? Um, hunting game to feed her family in spite of it being illegal, volunteering for a suicide mission in her sister's stead even though no one in her district had ever volunteered in the history of the games, running into an almost certain death trap to get medicine for her teammate, pretending to have affection for him to increase his chances for survival... That's just off the top of my head.
Did she ever fight or kill anyone (you know the thing action heroes do when they're not talking)? Your list makes it seem like she spend most of her time either dodging people or being in dangerous situations but not experiencing any danger. I'm fairly certain if a man did this he's be called a coward for not fighting enough.
Yes, because murder is clearly the most important thing that defines a brave action hero. But yes, she does kill several people in "Hunger Games", some with mutant bees, some with her bow and arrow.

uanime5 said:
You really need me to list examples of successful women who write stories of heroic women? OK, fine, aside from Suzanne Collins, we have Tamora Pierce (seriously, read ANY of her books), Gail Simone, Ursula K. Le Guin, Seanan McGuire, Rhianna Pratchett, K.A. Applegate, Laurell K. Hamilton, Kelly Sue DeConnick... Do you really think women are just somehow genetically predisposed to not be interested in action and adventure or something? You're lucky I'm even taking this remotely seriously. Most rational people would have written you off as a lost cause long before "mangina".
Never heard of any of these authors; are they famous in your county? Also wasn't this list meant to be about women who write stories of heroic women for other women. How do I determine which books are most popular with women?
And clearly because you've never heard of them, they aren't important or successful. You sure showed me. Also, "my country"? Where the hell are you from, dude?

uanime5 said:
According to this study on movie preference by gender women do have a genetically predisposed to not be interested in action and adventure:
http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/sfischo/media3.html

The fact that you resorted to abuse because you didn't like what I wrote just undermines your argument.
...That article is from the 90's. That study is almost old enough to legally drive. And it has a sample size of 560 individuals. And it doesn't even support your claim that women are "genetically predisposed" since it's just as likely that the women in this survey favored drama films because they tended to have a stronger female presence. Is this seriously the best you got or was it just the first hit when you googled "How many women are interested in action adventure"? You are seriously the closest to a literal strawman I've ever argued with. I'm not sure if I should feel impressed or not.

uanime5 said:
Part of the reason they can only make three games a year is because they are really bad with money and make horribly over-bloated games. If they made more smaller games that didn't try so hard to have ridiculously high production values and aimed to be more stylized, they could afford to take more risks and focus on gameplay.
Businesses generally don't take risks unless they can:
A) Survive any loss they may make.
B) Are likely to make much greater profits.

So even if they stop making over-bloated games they'll most likely move onto whatever guarantees the most profit.[/quote]

Look into the backstory of the recent games "XCOM: Enemy Unknown" and "The Bureau: XCOM Declassified". Guess which one was considered the "safe bet" and given the larger budget and marketing push? Guess which one ended up making them more money and has become the new flagship for the rebooted XCOM franchise? I think you'll understand what I mean when I say that video game companies tend to operate more on assumptions regarding their market rather than any substantial accurate data.

uanime5 said:
Jeez, criticizing Jim again? Why not just make your own video saying all your points instead of restricting Jim? If you want something to change you should be prepared to do the hard work, rather than demand someone else does it for you.

See what I mean?
I'm content with continuing to point out the errors in Jim's video even if he never changes.
And whoosh you completely miss the irony.

Welp, I think I've done all I can for you, my friend. You can keep living in your world based on willful ignorance and studies from 1998, or you can read a damn book. Expand your worldview. Maybe actually talk to a woman. Good night and good luck.
 

BQE

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Jun 17, 2013
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Ladies and Gentleman, boys and girls of all ages!
I have found the answer that you seek!

Is she a female? YES
Is the protaganist or a playable character? YES
Is not conventionally attractive? YES
Is she human? YES

I'm sure you're waiting with bated breath but let me assure you this fox will fit all your criteria!
A woman who goes on a sociopathic rampage to achieve some peace and quiet and yes indeed, you play as this woman!
Let me introduce, a lady who probably needs plenty of introduction....



http://twistedmetal.wikia.com/wiki/Granny_Dread

Yes that's right. I say if Mr. Sterling can nominate a female monster from an archaic game, then Granny Dread should fit the bill perfectly then. [/spoiler]

I believe the ball is in your court.