Jimquisition: Vertigo

[G-Force]

You know, seeing how half of people here give examples of women in games, and the other half dismiss them as not meeting the criteria, I now have to say the criteria are actually quite arbitrary.

I want a game where I can play as an underwater dog marine, a space octopus, an alien bacteria or an up-side-down helicopter. But I can't find any games like this! You fail, game industry!

Thank You! I'm not the only one who thought the criteria Jim had was overly specific. I mentioned this before. One theory why videogames don't have very many female protagonists. Vocal game critics have ridiculous uber-specific demands on what the female looks like, story, hero/villain, etc. There is no way game developers can please them. (Unless, you make the female character a purple dinosaur.) You don't hear that kind of demand about male characters in videogames. Most of them wouldn't be able to meet Jim's criteria about female characters.

Most male characters WOULD be able to meet Jim's criteria and that's the major issue. With male's we can have playable protagonists who are ugly by conventional standards, act like a horrible person and have motivations that stem beyond trying to please the opposite sex. Why don't we see more games where you play as a woman horribly scarred physically, someone incredibly old or someone overweight or even slightly chubby? We have a wide variety of male characters out there and it would be refreshing to see that same level of variety with female protagonists.

ok challenge:
Name 5 male video game characters which fit his description exactly.
Here it is again:
- not self created.
- Ugly
- Not motivated by woman in any way.
- Not motivates by a trauma
- Not good. (ergo bad)

The 3 Protagonist of GTA 5
The entire male roster of Killing Floor
Dallas, Huxton, Wolf and Chains from Payday
Sagat, Rufus, Balrog, Gen, Hugo, 12, Q, E.Honda from Street Fighter
Bob, Heiachi, Alex, Gon,

 

[maninahat]

This reminded me of the Bechdel Test, but made easier to pass and then failed by pretty much everyone.

Very much this. It's interesting how the less visual the media is, the less likely you are to find this problem - even hundreds of years ago, when books were still a new thing and were written almost exclusively by wealthy white people, they had more diversity. Want a plain looking female with her own arc? Jane Eyre is at the door. Want a black protagonist in your autobiography? Meet Ouladah Equiano. It demonstrates how much of an excessive importance is placed on aesthetics (but not aesthetic variety) in visual mediums.

 

[Falien]

When I think of "atypical" women characters in games, I usually think of Core Design's criminally-underrated Project Eden, more specifically of Amber Torrelson, one of the four playable characters, who is a female police officer saved from death by being put into a bulky cyborg body. She's unusual because she's not portrayed as a victim (she actually likes her new body) or physically attractive (we're talking a cyborg that looks like <url=http://gameswalls.com/wallpapers/p/project-eden/amber-torrelson-1.jpg>this), and she's an important asset to the team (she is immune to dangers that would kill the others, like fire or acid), rather than a plot device or secondary character.

Project Eden featured other atypical elements for the time (2001) as well: the leader of the team was a black man, while the team itself was equally divided in terms of gender: two men and two women. It's a shame that Core Design chose (or was forced to) focus on the ill-fated Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness rather than create other, more diverse games like Project Eden.

 

[Something Amyss]

Folks, you can't force creativity onto the author.

Well, yes you can. It's already being done, with them pushing for white male heroes to the point of exclusion.

It seems kind of ridiculous to pretend you can't. And where is the rant on that?

Which is why the idea that we have to meet a quota for every possible combination and type of human in existence so we can adequately be equal is silly.

It's also a strawman to take the argument that we don't need to sexify all women and turn it into a "quota" system. I don't get the point of rebutting someone if you're not going to deal with the issues they bring up.

Next week, 90% or so of the people bitching at Jim with strawman arguments will complain that the media is disingenuously misportraying games to the world, and yet not even the slightest hint of cognitive dissonance will present itself.

 

[Lissa-QUON]

Boys were never attracted to pink

And what do you have to back that up?

even if baby clothes for boys were pink 100 years ago. the main evidence for this is that boys didn't wear pink when they were children or adults.

Take a look at a Renaissance painting. Guarantee you'll find one young strapping chap in there that wore pink back in the day.
Your defense is laughable because even today there are plenty of men and woman who don't wear the arbitrary pink and blue clothes that their parents made them wear as kids.

Backing up to say - pink and blue used to be switched color wise. Sorry art nerd here - and I hate every time this "pink and red are en-grained in women cause I say so" argument comes up.

Red is the color of blood - and fire and all those angry things. As Dragonbums pointed out Renaissance paintings are a great example of this. Red was the man's color. Once we got the tech to make pastel dyes - we started dressing our kids in the watered down versions of adult colors. So boys got pink.

Blue is considered a soothing cool color usually. Once again - Renaissance paintings, most of our depictions of Virgin Mary have her sporting blue even now. So girls would get blues.

This changed in the last century or so, but even up to the late 1920's we have advertising talking about getting pink clothes for your boys and blue for girls.

 

[Laurie Barnes]

Spoiler: *cough*

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though.

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies ( something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.

I think that bit about most games being a male empowerment fantasy might be the root problem here actually. I just thought about all the games that I love, and a fair majority of them are in fact male empowerment fantasies. So that makes me wonder, what would a female empowerment fantasy look like? Do any even exist?

I'm not saying making a few games that are focus tested for women the same way COD is for men is the answer, or not inherently sexist, but I must admit curiosity for what the result might be.

Perhaps the Mighty and Benevolent Jim Sterling can field this one after he is done with Season Passes.

Going by what my sister's preferences are, good 'Female empowerment fantasies' are essentially the same as 'male' ones. They essentially amount to cool characters who are strong enough to cause a measurable amount of change in the world/narrative/whathaveyou in which they exist.

Thank you for that response, though I wish you could be more specific on your sister's age and background, just for context.
Despite whether such fantasies are gender neutral, I would still like for the video game industry to focus test some games specifically for the fairer sex. Best case scenario, we get some decent video games for the ladies, worst case, and far more likely IMO, the industry royally screws the pooch and produces a bunch of titles that will earn ridicule for their lack of understanding for the target audience.
Either way, we will learn something about ourselves, and I'm all for scientific inquiry.

 

[Amaror]

snip

The 3 Protagonist of GTA 5
The entire male roster of Killing Floor
Dallas, Huxton, Wolf and Chains from Payday
Sagat, Rufus, Balrog, Gen, Hugo, 12, Q, E.Honda from Street Fighter
Bob, Heiachi, Alex, Gon,

Sorry i didn't play Killing Floor or Payday. I know however that you seem to mostly mean their bad or evil characters, but there are more rules on the list and they have to fulfill ALL of them, not only one.
The 3 Protagonist of GTA 5 don't fullfill them.
Franklin - Is attractive. Doesn't count.
Micheal - pretty attractive, plus a rather traumatic past. Doesn't count.
Trevor - Is motivated by trauma. Doesn't count

As i get from Killing Floor and Payday, that these are multiplayer games and are not that much about the characters.
Nonetheless looking at pictures of the characters of Payday they don't show any obvious signs of unattractiveness, even though you can't see their face because of the masks.
Looking at the default members of Killing Floor ... No uglies there either, plus some have a trauma background.
Sorry but i can't comment on the street fighter guys, but i am pretty sure that they don't fullfill ALL the rules on the List AT ONCE.

Edit: Just to make sure that you also know this. I am not arguing with you, because i disagree with jim's point. On the contrary i fully agree with his point. However i don't agree with his argument. Making a list of arbitrary rules what defines a good character and then complaining, because no female game character fits that list is not good argumentation. Exspecially if said list is soooo arbitrary, that there aren't even any male characters that fit into the list.
This was just a really crappy episode of jim. Although i fully agree with the point he's trying to get across.

 

[thewatergamer]

Agree with u On most parts jim, but I don't know... Vertigo is looking pretty hot to me

 

[Amaror]

snip

The alien from Destroy all humans? (haven't played the game a lot but I think he qualifies).
Cervantes (from Soul Calibur) maybe, depending on how you define ugly.


Remove ugly and I can only think of 2 more

CJ
Sweet Tooth

Hehe, i didn't play that game, but i guess that amount of characters that fits this list on the male's side seem pretty on par with vertigo. ^^

And there will be no reductions on the arbitrary list of arbitraryness!

 

[allizzwell]

Woman love watching Thor for the muscles of the main actor. Same with twilight. Just the way things are. Not saying its right, its just the way things are. Just woman are more vocal than men. Me? Im a guy, dont give a shit if older woman get off on twilight. Or woman watch Thor shows his abs. Its entertainment. Its fantasy. Its not real. Isnt that the point of games? Stick to the real world of adverts, modelling and Photoshopping models into fake woman. Start there then games.

Articles about Thor: The Dark World from a female Geek Site:

http://www.themarysue.com/thor-the-dark-world-tv-spot/

http://www.themarysue.com/loki-poster/

http://www.themarysue.com/loki-film-petition/

http://www.themarysue.com/new-loki-poster/

http://www.themarysue.com/natalie-portman-tom-hiddleston-punch/

http://www.themarysue.com/thor-the-dark-world-character-posters/

http://www.themarysue.com/funko-loki-thor/

As you can see,the main focus isn't on Thor and his muscles but on Loki.When watching Avengers,there are more women attracted towards Stark and Banner than Thor or Captain America.If people were attracted so much to muscles,Captain America would have scored far better than the other movies,but this isn't the case.And I think we can all agree that none of this 3 characters are conventional handsome (not more than the examples of female protagonists given here). Maybe you don't know it,but the "perfect" male bodies in Twilight are bodypaint and makeup,something one can't imagine the other way around,since "ugly" women in movies are mostly portrayed by beautiful actresses. Comparing Twilight and video games (or comics) is a logical fallacy since they don't have the same audience at all (yes,this is aimed at you Tony Daniel).

By the way,"we are only giving you what the audience wants",is a big lie.We are getting what publisher and sponsors want,there are games from overseas a lot of people are aksing for,but video game companies already stated that they won't publish them on any other market because it's not in there interest,the people in charge are economists,not gamers.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

You know, seeing how half of people here give examples of women in games, and the other half dismiss them as not meeting the criteria, I now have to say the criteria are actually quite arbitrary.

I want a game where I can play as an underwater dog marine, a space octopus, an alien bacteria or an up-side-down helicopter. But I can't find any games like this! You fail, game industry!

Thank You! I'm not the only one who thought the criteria Jim had was overly specific. I mentioned this before. One theory why videogames don't have very many female protagonists. Vocal game critics have ridiculous uber-specific demands on what the female looks like, story, hero/villain, etc. There is no way game developers can please them. (Unless, you make the female character a purple dinosaur.) You don't hear that kind of demand about male characters in videogames. Most of them wouldn't be able to meet Jim's criteria about female characters.

Most male characters WOULD be able to meet Jim's criteria and that's the major issue. With male's we can have playable protagonists who are ugly by conventional standards, act like a horrible person and have motivations that stem beyond trying to please the opposite sex. Why don't we see more games where you play as a woman horribly scarred physically, someone incredibly old or someone overweight or even slightly chubby? We have a wide variety of male characters out there and it would be refreshing to see that same level of variety with female protagonists.

ok challenge:
Name 5 male video game characters which fit his description exactly.
Here it is again:
- not self created.
- Ugly
- Not motivated by woman in any way.
- Not motivates by a trauma
- Not good. (ergo bad)

Deadpool
Stubbs the Zombie
Kane & Lynch
Trevor (GTAV)
the alien from destroy all humans
Venom
Sabretooth
Dr. Doom
Basically a lot of marvel villains that you get to play as in Rise of the Imperfects, Marvel Ultimate Alliance, etc.
The demon lord from Makai Kingdom.
The protagonists from Overlord 1 & 2.
Bowser.
Wario
The protagonist from Zombie Tycoon.

 

[AyaReiko]

Jim's little "crusade" is getting boring.

I'm sure there are other things he can rant on about. Until then, I'm going to stop watching.

 

[FireDr@gon]

On this issue what about the mutated Kerrigan from the starcraft series? Although the initial Kerrigan was flirty and attractive, the mutated one could hardly be called conventionally attractive and her actions certainly put her in the "villain" side of the spectrum. She's also a playable character and a complex character to boot. I don't think her powers originate from a traumatic event as she was portrayed as an elite phychic soldier before she was mutated by the zerg. And finally, even though she was the victim of a man, mensk, she certainly does no males' bidding - she was controlled by the swarm, untill she became a matriarch to it....

EDIT - I'm not just some starcraft freak even if my avatar is from starcraft :/

Oh and I also pretty much raised this exact same issue in a thread entitled 'When will we see a NON-attractive woman in a video-game?' with the small exception that I didn't use the protagonist criteria. look it up Jimothy, same wavelength

2nd Edit - If this topic is so boring to people, why do gender related threads on the escapist get so much attention? I think it's because video games are definately gaining a stronger influence in the world of media and being taken more seriously as a media source, and therefore the representation of any group be it gender, sexuality or ethnicity matters more.

 

[Icehearted]

On this issue what about the mutated Kerrigan from the starcraft series? Although the initial Kerrigan was flirty and attractive, the mutated one could hardly be called conventionally attractive and her actions certainly put her in the "villain" side of the spectrum. She's also a playable character and a complex character to boot. I don't think her powers originate from a traumatic event as she was portrayed as an elite phychic soldier before she was mutated by the zerg. And finally, even though she was the victim of a man, mensk, she certainly does no males' bidding - she was controlled by the swarm, untill she became a matriarch to it....

EDIT - I'm not just some starcraft freak even if my avatar is from starcraft :/

Oh and I also pretty much raised this exact same issue in a thread entitled 'When will we see a NON-attractive woman in a video-game?' with the small exception that I didn't use the protagonist criteria. look it up Jimothy, same wavelength

2nd Edit - If this topic is so boring to people, why do gender related threads on the escapist get so much attention? I think it's because video games are definately gaining a stronger influence in the world of media and being taken more seriously as a media source, and therefore the representation of any group be it gender, sexuality or ethnicity matters more.

On your last point, I disagree. I saw this on Destructoid and made my own fairly lengthy post on it so i won't necessarily repeat myself here. I will offer that on the matter here on these forums I think the issue tweaks nerves really fast, I think that it really got ugly after the whole Sarkeesian blowup, I think it's bait, and I think it's largely a way for people to try getting those little flamey badges. I've seen so many topic about so many silly things, people starting polls, asking what flavor of bubblegum you prefer, opening debates about who really did frame Roger Rabbit, all for badges. This topic, above most, will piss off just enough people that it can be viewed as mostly clickbait. I can honestly say I've yet to see much of anything constructive or fair come of this topic either. It's not as sexist as people think, a panel featured here on the Escapist, all women, cited characters Jim just used in his video as well, one of them I recall even going so far as to believe Bayonetta was about being sexy for herself and equating that to some degree with being empowered as a female character (which I personally disagree with).

I think it's an important discussion, though I question the reasoning behind doing so. I also want to point out that a lot of what warrants being attractive is highly subjective, and people have a hypocritical stance on the concept of equality in how the genders are represented.

On your first point I will add this, which I did use in another post elsewhere just minutes ago to illustrate my own ideas of this perceived inequality. I don't consider these traditionally attractive females, and I don't think they fall under the stereotypes mentioned. Please feel free to correct me if I'm in error here. Kerrigan at least has a sexy body, no question, though in her Zerg form to me she resembles a human cockroach.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

snip

Did you ever considered that having a woman do evil things may be.....anti-feminist?

There is continuous praise of non-violent resolutions and associating them with feminism. While values such as cooperation and peace are good, the topic is much more contentious one in feminist circles than people makes it seem, as there are many different opinions amongst feminists on this subject. These values have always been around in male-dominated societies and aren't necessarily associated with feminism. How this becomes unfortunate is when it seems to give a reverse implication of "feminine is good, masculine is bad."

Along the same note, female antagonists (and even an dark gray Anti-Hero like the main character of "Revenge") are considered as anti-feminist. This leads to the implication that that woman characters in media must always be presented as Incorruptible Pure Pureness.

*/I have no information on how they want to LOOK, however. Just how they want to be portrayed/*

Spoiler: Take a guess where did i got that information...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/FeministFrequency (on the Unfortunate Implications part)
http://www.feministfrequency.com/2011/09/fall-television-premieres/
And of course "I will make a man out of you": http://puu.sh/2dZ4i

"Women cant be heroic without suffering some trauma"
Think of a better way to pull strings of the audience?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tragedy

Maybe Rhianna Pratchett can tell us something about Tomb Raider (since you used that clip while saying that quote)
http://killscreendaily.com/articles/interviews/tomb-raider-writer-rhianna-pratchett-why-every-kill-cant-be-first-and-why-she-wanted-make-lara-croft-gay/

Oh, and i found a loony fan of yours here with links to his arguments on the description:

So if we dont put female villians or anything besides the standard female, then women are misrepresented. If we do, then its anti-feminism and misogynist to think that a woman like that could even EXIST, or doesn't count as woman because its just an imitation of man and its violent ways.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MortonsFork

Well........shit. I need a drink.

At least we have Kreia from KOTOR 2, i suppose.

 

[piclemaniscool]

I can do much better than that. Chell from Portal. Sure they gussy her up for Portal 2, but in Portal 1, she she certainly looks like someone who is attempting to escape a terrible prison, and not someone designed for a penis. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090504190860/half-life/en/images/0/0a/Chell-crouch.jpg Frayed hairs, tired eyes, and what I would argue is cheekbones visible enough to point to signs of malnourishment, that's not the picture dating sites would use to lure you in. Sure there are people in the real world who look worse than her, but there are people who look worse than Kane and Lynch too. She seems to fit the description alright.

 

[inkheart_artist]

What about Mitsuko the Boar from Bloody Roar? She was pretty different. She was trying to find her daughter though, is that too "female tropes" to count?
http://bloodyroar.wikia.com/wiki/Mitsuko_the_Boar