Jimquisition: When Piracy Becomes Theft

[Beautiful End]

"Backing Music: It's off of FFIX"

It's called Rose of May or also known as Beatrix' Theme, also know as Loss of Me (I think Rose of May might be the official title, though). Ever since I heard it for the first time, I knew it was from FFIX...and thus I accepted Jim as our lord and savior.

Nice intro and outro, by the way. And cool chainsaw...blade. Is that from Warhammer?

Hmm...I wonder if my actual-size keyblade would stand a chance...

...No, it wouldn't.

 

[dbenoy]

Yes, clearly things in a post-copyright world would be different. What I suspect we will not agree on, however, is that things would be better.
...
Without protection, you may see a broader pool of creation, but it would almost undoubtedly be a substantially shallower pool ...

I don't believe that making art better justifies the aggression of copyright, so even if you convinced me that you're right about that, I would still not be able to support it.

However, I've seen some incredible projects flourish wonderfully without employing copyright. Just look at comic strips. They're way better on the internet than they ever were back in the days where they relied on copyright.

I still don't buy the idea that an MMO requires copyright in any way. I find the idea that WoW would lose its subscribers if they loosened their leash on competing servers to be completely absurd Nobody wants to be on some lame third party server unless they're cheap as shit and willing to miss out on content updates.

That applies to more than games, as well. Google, for example, is a software writing company, but they host all their software on web servers, rather than selling copies, and it's all advertisement sponsored. Their projects cost insane amounts of money.

Also there are 'patrons' and crowd sourced development. For example, Linux is the most popular operating system in the world (on all computers except personal desktops/laptops). It costs extreme amounts of money to maintain, but it has no problem finding funding because businesses hire coders and have them contribute. In a post-copyright world, (or in fact, even if copyright continues to exist) I predict that we'll see this type of model being used to create blockbuster games. Just as home video editing software became so easy and powerful that everyone could become a film directory and publish themselves, we are likely to see a similar revolution with game development as technology improves.

 

[BreakdownBoy]

All piracy is theft, doesn't matter that the legal term refers to an item being 'removed' or whatever. It seems to me people are just justifying there criminal acts. I don't care if the DRM sucks (then don't buy the game), I mean I live in a country where the internet sucks and it's more expensive than bloody fuel so bad DRM is a real problem for me! At the same time you have stinking rich (in contrast to the rest of the world) Americans and Europeans that pirate games because they don't want to pay $60 for a game that can play on their Xbox 360 next to their huge ass flat screen!!!

Think about this, piracy started DRM and now pirates are blaming DRM?!!!!

 

[dbenoy]

Now that I think about it, there's specific example of an extremely deep and complex crowd sourced game (TOO deep and complex to be feasibly commissioned for money, probably) that was created without copyright: nethack

Can you imagine the boundless possibilities if EVERY game that ever came out could be used to strengthen crowd sourced games? I can't even conceive of the level of depth that can be achieved by a project with a thousand passionate developers working for twenty years with all of human expression as their source material. More than money can buy today, that's for sure.

 

[Reion 13]

oooooooo. New intro

 

[Gather]

What about non-indie "mainstream" games that do not have the intrusive DRM of today?

Titan Quest could be a prime example. Sure, it had DRM but if you had the official version of the game you wouldn't have noticed that it existed (Apart from "Please put CD into drive").

Or, Demigod for that matter but I'm not entirely sure what DRM that game had.

 

[Agayek]

Or, Demigod for that matter but I'm not entirely sure what DRM that game had.

None actually. Stardock and CDProjekt don't put any DRM in their games. Pointing at them is all you really need to do to win a DRM debate. They're both highly successful companies with great games, without a single bit of DRM.

 

[Alterego-X]

That is like saying that a kid who reaches through the fence to steal an apple from a huge corporate apple orchard isn't doing anything morally wrong, but the kid who picks one from one of the trees in the neighbor lady's garden is a dirty pedophile-burglar.

It is just based on unfounded stereotypes about how corporations are evil, while individuals are always good.

And it avoids just WHY piracy is controversial. The issue is not whether or not some owners deserves to get ripped off, but whether or not piracy is really causing meaningful harm to anyone at all.

Yes, World of Goo had 90% piracy rate. World of Goo was also a ridiculously hyped indie hit, that made millions of dollars of profit, where that piracy was either the CAUSE of it's success, by spreading the word of mouth, or an after-effect, where some people who didn't particularly care about it just got fed up with hearing about it everywhere, decided to check it out. (Crysis, Skyrim, Modern Warfare, etc, also have unnaturally high pracy ratio).

These kind of people are simply non-consumers. But even if you would assume that each of these are lost sales, just the fact that it could be bought for one cent, would make it exactly THE SAME as the above analogy with a kid and the apple. Or maybe not, an apple is probably a lot more expensive than that.

And no, I'm not "humanizing" pirates even by comparing them to kids. In fact, many of these pirates ARE kids, who simply don't have any paypal account to pay even one cent for the game, or adults who are just as ignorant about the Internet and ddeveloper revenues and copyright as a kid. They are a niche at the periphery of the industry. Treating them like a dangerous force that is trying to destroy us, is like demonizing that apple-stealing kid as an immoral person whose ways will destroy the apple industry.

 

[Mr Somewhere]

Piracy = pedophilia? Wow, being one of the 0.1% of the people on this website with a little girl, go fuck yourself jim.

On the other hand 99% of this website users ARE little boys and girls. If they can take a joke and not be offended being the targets of pedophiles, I would assume an adult would be able to be more sensible.

You do realize the thought process was more or less "i want to find the WORST kind of people there are, humm, let's go with pedophiles". What is offensive about that?

I may be offended, but I think he should be able to say whatever he wants and I should be able to do the same. Obviously, I can't. Saying something like that even as a hyperbole ruins what little credibility he had. All I can do is voice said anger and prevent ad revenue, that's good enough for me.

You can say what you like. Just as people can then criticise what you've said, it being a public forum and all that.

 

[electric method]

Putting aside all the semantical arguments about the issue, whether or not it's called copyright infrigment or theft, there is one inescapable fact about the issue. That is this; in most nations of the world it's illegal. That's all anyone should take away from it. Illegal. As in if caught doing so you will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Period. Full stop. End of story.

It does not matter how we, as individuals, decide to dress up the issue or even what name we call it. What matters is the laws regarding these actions are specific and speak to the illegal nature of the actions as well as the consequences thereof.

There is no moral high ground nor justification for it. Games, and the like, are wants not needs. In some cases I can understand why certain people do pirate games. I can even empathize with those reasons. That, however, does not make the action any less illegal.

Saying things like copyright laws are evil and should be abolished are, imo, a completely specious and spurious argument. They hold no water. For very much the same reasons why communism failed in such a massive way. Everything belonging to everyone is a noble ideal and goal but just doesn't work. It's predicated on everything and everyone having the same intrinsic value which, sadly, is not true and more the likely won't ever be.

 

[Alterego-X]

There is no moral high ground nor justification for it. Games, and the like, are wants not needs. In some cases I can understand why certain people do pirate games. I can even empathize with those reasons. That, however, does not make the action any less illegal.

Morality =/= legaility.

You know what else is illegal in most nations of the world? Free speech. At least if you also count all african, middle-eastern, and east-asian countries as "nations", then there are a lot more chances for you getting prosecuted for saying bad things about the government, than for downloading a game.

To mix together what is moral with what is legally allowed, is just an appeal to authority.

Saying things like copyright laws are evil and should be abolished are, imo, a completely specious and spurious argument. They hold no water. For very much the same reasons why communism failed in such a massive way. Everything belonging to everyone is a noble ideal and goal but just doesn't work. It's predicated on everything and everyone having the same intrinsic value which, sadly, is not true and more the likely won't ever be.

I'm not some information-freedom fighter who thinks that all media content should be automatically public property, but in the specific issue of piracy, as in downloading personal copies from the Internet, the idea of legalization is a lot more grounded in reality than the attempts at stopping the Internet from doing what it inherently does, that is making free copies of everything.

 

[Agayek]

Putting aside all the semantical arguments about the issue, whether or not it's called copyright infrigment or theft, there is one inescapable fact about the issue. That is this; in most nations of the world it's illegal. That's all anyone should take away from it. Illegal. As in if caught doing so you will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Period. Full stop. End of story.

It does not matter how we, as individuals, decide to dress up the issue or even what name we call it. What matters is the laws regarding these actions are specific and speak to the illegal nature of the actions as well as the consequences thereof.

There is no moral high ground nor justification for it. Games, and the like, are wants not needs. In some cases I can understand why certain people do pirate games. I can even empathize with those reasons. That, however, does not make the action any less illegal.

Saying things like copyright laws are evil and should be abolished are, imo, a completely specious and spurious argument. They hold no water. For very much the same reasons why communism failed in such a massive way. Everything belonging to everyone is a noble ideal and goal but just doesn't work. It's predicated on everything and everyone having the same intrinsic value which, sadly, is not true and more the likely won't ever be.

While I mostly agree with you, there is one aspect of your argument I must protest. Just because something is illegal does not make it immoral, or vice versa. Legality has absolutely nothing to do with morality.

Whatever government you care to name is fully capable of declaring rape to be legal. That won't make it any less of an abhorrent and immoral act. Holding up the legality of an act in a moral debate is utterly meaningless.

That said, you are correct at the very core of your statement here. Taking something for free that was not given is morally void, and is generally accepted as a bad thing to do. The fact that the victim does not technically lose anything in the process does not suddenly grant the act moral standing. It simply means you cheated the system.

Also, your copyright spiel at the end is 100% accurate. Copyright is very much necessary, and certainly a good thing. I do not agree with the scope and duration of copyright, but that does not mean it is unnecessary.

 

[Alterego-X]

That said, you are correct at the very core of your statement here. Taking something for free that was not given is morally void, and is generally accepted as a bad thing to do. The fact that the victim does not technically lose anything in the process does not suddenly grant the act moral standing. It simply means you cheated the system.

I disagree with that. I'm not saying that it *is* moral, but I think you are exaggerating when you say that it is "generally accepted as a bad thing". Normally, a bit of freeloading is considered OK as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

For example, if you pick up a newspaper that was left by someone on a table, not many would call you morally void. Or if you are walking down from a hill, get thirsty/hungry and pick a grape from a nearby vineyard, not many would call that morally void. It is just generally understood that the freedom to comfortably use your environment, is more important than technicalities of always making sure to pay for everything, as long as you aren't malicious.

 

[IKWerewolf]

I can't argue with Jimquisition on this one. There is no protection for Indie developers in the global market, so we should be the responsible party telling people that ripping off Indie developers is worse than theft!

Although throwing paint on their house is maybe one step too far.

 

[Darth_Murmeltier]

Hey, lov' ya Jim <3

I totally agree with you on this, it's just really shit when you pirate something from an indie dev "with a good heart", if you know what I mean.

 

[zefiris]

Completely agree with Jim Sterling. There's no reason to pirate something like the humble bundle.

And I was in the other threads, saying that some piracy doesn't hurt anyone.

This kind? Does.

Sorry No, Indie devs are not special

They aren't special - just specially good at making games. I sure am having more fun with them than with AAA titles.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

It's theft, it will always be theft and those that say it's something less are enablers.

It's not theft, it's never been theft and those that say it is are just trying to appeal to emotion to put someone who downloads a few games on the same footing as a mugger.

People who are saying that it is theft are *not* equating it with mugging. That is *your* emotional manipulation of the issue. Theft ranges all the way from taking a paperclip from your employer, all the way through to armed robbery or massive corporate fraud. Nobody said that all theft is equivalent, or that all theft involves violent crime.

Taking property without permission has always been defined as theft. Whether that property is digital or not is irrelevant. The fact is that we have laws that define "Intellectual Property." Now, you may not agree with that concept, but that is the law. If you take intellectual property, you are taking property without permission.

The reason that the legal system has so many different names for charges relating to theft, is that theft is infinitely varied in its degree and nature. If you commit embezzlement or fraud, you are not charged with "theft," even though your actions involve theft. We speak of "Identity Theft," even though that does not actually remove the identity of the victim.

It's impossible to have an intelligent debate while people continue to re-define words to mean something that they are not. In this case, it's people who are claiming that software piracy is not theft. It is. But that doesn't define what kind of theft it is - whether it's more like stealing a paperclip from your place of work, or breaking into somebody's house and stealing items at gunpoint.

Somebody previously argued that software piracy should be compared to something less extreme, like vandalism, or property destruction. That's pretty strange to me, as I think that most people would think that vandalism and property destruction are *much* worse than petty theft. Those activities indicate psychopathy and seriously anti-social behavior. Surely, petty theft is less objectionable to most people than the needless destruction of things?

Most people can relate to not having enough money to afford something. When people refer to software piracy as "theft," it's usually closer to the "steal a loaf of bread" end of the spectrum than the "armed bank robbery" end.

 

[surg3n]

You do realise that indi developers are some of the biggest pirates out there!

The difference is that the software an indi dev will pirate is worth thousands. 3D Studio Max, Photoshop, any Adobe software, Reason, FruityLoops.

I'm not saying the professional indi's, like 2D Boy are like that, I mean the million other indi and hobbyist developers out there, who don't have a penny to their name, yet they aquire thousands of dollars worth of software.

That's just software, software that admitedly is so expensive because professionals use it, but theres more - like media. I myself have had media used without credit, in one of those god awful trucking games. No credit, no linky to a free copy of the game, no email saying they were using it - they just took the media and made it their own. I'm not sure if those guys are considered pro's, or indi - but developers and artists are perfectly capable of the same actions. God only knows how many times CGTextures has been ripped off, or any number of media sites out there.

It's a horrible situation, when someone has to 'steal' to create something for people for free, and with hobbyists that is certainly the case. Copyright laws need to wind down a little, and concentrate on people who profit from infringement. So it wouldn't be illegal to download and use Photoshop or 3DS Max, but if you use it commercially then you should have to pay. Indi developers could develop for free, then pay licences if their game gets sold. Steam is becomming much more accesible for indi developers, it will be easier to sell PC only games, and more developers will see it as a legitimate money platform, much like they see the iPhone and iPad. It all boils down to money, people can't afford so they take copies, there's no point in suing these people, so let them have it... if they start to make money from this software though, they should be expected to pay for it.
I know that won't happen, they couldn't police it, things will continue as they are, with everyone acting all butt-hurt.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Legally speaking it is not theft. That is the end of the matter. If you think that it is, you are wrong.

Who said we were speaking legally? I was talking about the common definition of the term. But it is also considered theft in a legal sense, too.

I could quote plenty of cases where judges have flat out said that copyright infringement cannot be theft.

Please, go ahead and quote those cases.

We have a term and offence for this: copyright infringement. If everyone just used that and didn't twat around trying to call it theft, or counterfeiting, or fraud, or god knows what else, we might actually make some progress talking about it.

No, it's an important distinction. When we're talking about software piracy, it's *deliberate* copyright infringement as an act of theft. "Copyright infringement" as a general term can cover things like accidental copyright infringement, which is not what we're talking about.

I'm fine with calling it copyright infringement, the problem is that people are claiming that it is not *also* theft, which it most certainly is. Why is it that you feel the need to claim that it isn't? Do you claim that fraud and embezzlement aren't also forms of theft?

 

[The Human Torch]

If I steal your bike, then you lose a bike. That's theft.
If you copy one of your games, you lose nothing. See the difference?

Piracy is theft, simply because you take a game/video/cd without paying for it. You are using the service that they provided and you are not paying for it. I don't care how you spin it, you are pirating.
You are a pedophile burglar, if you pirate games.

Thanks for that term Jim, I am going to be using it a lot.

I am not the one that said that, you may wish to get your quotes right next time

Meh, sorry about that, I got it from a post that was filled with quotes and I backspaced the wrong part. My apologies.

To clarify to all readers: FelixG is NOT a pedophile burglar!