Jimquisition: When Piracy Becomes Theft

yundex

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Tanakh said:
yundex said:
Piracy = pedophilia? Wow, being one of the 0.1% of the people on this website with a little girl, go fuck yourself jim.
On the other hand 99% of this website users ARE little boys and girls. If they can take a joke and not be offended being the targets of pedophiles, I would assume an adult would be able to be more sensible.

You do realize the thought process was more or less "i want to find the WORST kind of people there are, humm, let's go with pedophiles". What is offensive about that?
I may be offended, but I think he should be able to say whatever he wants and I should be able to do the same. Obviously, I can't. Saying something like that even as a hyperbole ruins what little credibility he had. All I can do is voice said anger and prevent ad revenue, that's good enough for me.
 

Metalrocks

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as many have stated, people always find a way to pirate a game. doesnt matter if its cheap or not. sure, indie developers dont have much money and put a lot of effort in to it, but so do big once as well.
im not saying you are wrong, i do agree though, but you sounded more like we should give money to the indies but not the bigger companies.
 

dbenoy

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Jul 7, 2011
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Raesvelg said:
dbenoy said:
Strangely you've cited The Old Republic as an example of a game that wouldn't exist without copyright, when it's the precise opposite. It's an example of a massive AAA game which uses a copyright-free business model.
But it's not.

Not remotely.

TOR is, in fact, utterly dependent on copyright law in a variety of ways. Without it, for one, anyone who got their hands on the code could simply set up a competing service, without having to pay the investment costs of actually creating the game in the first place.

It's been done before for MMOs, repeatedly in fact, and only the fact that it's illegal has prevented it from becoming substantially more widespread.

Yes, a service-based business model is arguably less-dependent on copyright law than a product-based one, but in reality the two are often hopelessly intertwined. The service often is the product, and without protection, it becomes functionally worthless if it is easily replicated.
"Not remotely?"

I think you may be decoupling the upside and the downside of copyright abolition in this case. TOR need not have created their entire project from scratch in a post-copyright world; just enough to make it new and exciting and draw customers. Certainly that, and the lack of royalties, offsets whatever business would be lost to competition.

Do you contend that the only reason WoW continues to exist is because they sued third party servers out of existence?

This actually forks into separate issues as well.

First, it's an extreme technical challenge to clone a game server with access only to a client, and nearly impossible to keep up to date with a server that has frequent content releases.

Second, this isn't actually a violation of copyright as it's strictly defined. It's a bizarre artifact of US common law that probably isn't binding anywhere except in the US. Under this backward logic, you're violating a web browser's copyright by creating a competing web site.

There have been cases like this in the past, for example, the MPAA trying to sue the VCR out of existence, and the RIAA trying to sue DAT and mp3 out of existence. Thankfully the courts used to have some semblance of rationality.
 

dbenoy

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Metalrocks said:
as many have stated, people always find a way to pirate a game. doesnt matter if its cheap or not. sure, indie developers dont have much money and put a lot of effort in to it, but so do big once as well.
im not saying you are wrong, i do agree though, but you sounded more like we should give money to the indies but not the bigger companies.
Yes. Copyright is futile. Regardless of the outcome of any debates here, companies will either stop relying on copyright, or die.

More laws only serve to draw out the inevitable and make it more painful.
 

Freyar

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May 9, 2008
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I find it hard to agree that Copyright Infringement is not a form of theft. The theft of a game inherently diminishes the value of what was worked on. IE: if a game had a pool worth $10, and only 2 people paid $1, that's $2 while everyone else either didn't buy it (as is their choice), or stole a portion of that value by still being able to enjoy the game without paying into it.

Sure, I get more angry when people pirate indie games, but I still can't agree that the whole of it is "not theft" when theft could very well include the loss of value on a product.
 

Sonic Doctor

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Jan 9, 2010
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Jim Sterling said:
When Piracy Becomes Theft

Piracy isn't theft, right? It's copyright infringement, yes? These statements aren't wrong, but they're not always correct. Not when we talk about a certain type of piracy that is most certainly theft, and deserves all the indignity that such a term implies. The just and fair Jim Sterling shall share the wisdom of his judgement.

Watch Video
I don't entirely agree with you Jim. I agree piracy is theft, but I think it wholly so. In all my schooling and dealings with moral standards, I was always given the impression that theft/stealing is an act of taking something without paying for it and on top of that, taking something that doesn't belong you. I was never given any qualifiers that said anything about if there are infinite supplies "nothing" is lost. Even then it wouldn't matter, because I would still see it as theft, because pure and simple I believe taking without paying is theft, because people taking something that doesn't belong to them is theft. The loss of an item doesn't even come into the picture.

Really, if you are going to say one form of piracy is theft, then they both are because they are the same thing. The only difference you seem to be pointing out is in the relation of big company and little company, and that piracy against the big company is okay because they are being jerks or doing something you don't like albeit in both cases legally.

Law as well as moral standards are things that should be dealt with on an equal level. We can't be having the quandary of acts that are the same being treated differently just because two parties wronged against are different.

What do you find to be "dickish" that makes it okay to take stuff for free from the big companies?

Example:
First, you have a person that accidentally bumps into you and politely apologizes and then walks off, then you turn and proceed to beat the person's face to a pulp. The police come and arrest you and then charge you with battery.

Second, you have a person that accidentally bumps into you, but then that person proceeds to insult you saying you are some kind of blind dunce(putting it mildly) and then walks off, then you turn and proceed to beat the person's face to pulp. The police come and arrest you and then charge you with battery.

The first person was kind and gentle and nice enough to admit it was his fault. The second person was a jerk and even though it was his fault, he blames you for him bumping into you. In both cases, you get charged equally because you beat the person up. It doesn't matter if the second guy was being a dick and you don't like somebody acting in such a way towards you; it is wrong to just haul off and beat somebody up.

What I'm getting at is that it is the same when considering the indie companies and the big companies. The indie company is the nice and polite guy; he does nothing to you and treats you with respect and even gives his games to you at an insane discount and sometimes even free. The big company is the jerk; he calls you names by making a generalization that all gamers are "pirates" even if you aren't one. He charges large amounts of money for his product even though not everybody can afford such high prices and even though a vast majority want the product. He even "punishes" you for buying it cheaper/used, by locking out content if the game is bought by such a means and charges you what he deems as a fair price for the locked out content. He even limits the times you can use the product, only allowing five installations of the game. Lastly, he even requires you to download a program that, for all intent and purpose, is spyware that looks at all your personal information.

The problem is that all the things that that big company is doing is legal. They have the right to handle and distribute their product as they see fit, as long as it is legal. The gamers don't have to do business with the company. The gamers don't deserve to use the company's product. If the gamers don't like that they have to agree to being spied upon to be able to use the product, the gamers can say no and not purchase the game.

Nothing in what the big companies do gives the consumers the right to take stuff from them for free. It is all a matter of freedom in running a company and also being dually compensated for what they produce and what they determine is a fair price. If the consumers don't think the price is fair, they don't have to buy it. They can take a stance to not give the company money or buy a game they want that is similar and cheaper. The same goes for other everyday things, if I don't like the price of bread in one store or the price of a certain brand, I go to a different store or I buy a different brand. If I acted like the people that try to justify pirating, in the bread situation, I would end up shoplifting the bread.

If I ran a company and I had people that didn't agree with how I handled my product and complained about how high prices were and then stole from me, "stole" being taking without paying and experiencing the product without permission, then I would do just as the big companies are doing and seek full legal action or at least do something with my product to stop them.

So which is it Jim? Is piracy theft or not? It can't be both, since the acts are the same and only qualified because one company is nice and small, and one company is big and a jerk. It doesn't matter which one people steal from, it is the same act, jerk or no jerk.
 

dbenoy

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Jul 7, 2011
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Freyar said:
I find it hard to agree that Copyright Infringement is not a form of theft.
Speaking as one of those 'unauthorized copying is not theft' people, then calling it a "form of theft" isn't so bad, it's more like a failure to pay your obligations, but that's only if you accept the legitimacy of copyrights.

If copyrights are invalid (which they are) then you can't call it a failure to pay your obligations, or theft, or anything like that.

That's why it's frustrating when people say 'Unauthorized copying is wrong because it's stealing.' It's only stealing if unauthorized copying is wrong, making that statement a tautology.
 

LazyAza

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I don't even understand why piracy of indi games still exists, when you have steam where you can download like 50 games for free anyway and the average indi title is anywhere between 1 and 10 dollars piracy just seems like a waste of time and effort, just to be an asshole.
 

SillyBear

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LazyAza said:
I don't even understand why piracy of indi games still exists, when you have steam where you can download like 50 games for free anyway and the average indi title is anywhere between 1 and 10 dollars piracy just seems like a waste of time and effort, just to be an asshole.
Because a lot of people are selfish and don't think about the consequences of their actions. They want to play a game they don't give a toss about rewarding the people who made it.
 

dbenoy

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LazyAza said:
I don't even understand why piracy of indi games still exists, when you have steam where you can download like 50 games for free anyway and the average indi title is anywhere between 1 and 10 dollars piracy just seems like a waste of time and effort, just to be an asshole.
I can tell you why I do it.

With my appetite for games, it would be too expensive to buy all the indie games I want to try, so I only buy the ones I like. I decide which games I like after I've played the game completely (or completely enough to decide that they won't surprise me with a deal-breaker near the end)

Android/iOS games, interestingly, cater to me in this regard. They release one full and complete version of their game with ads, and another without ads, so I do the exact same thing with those than I do with other indie games, only that time it's "legitimate".
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Hmmm, maybe I missed it, but why the intro change? The pessimist in me wonders if perhaps Jim got asked to remove it after the last couple Jimquisition installments which were hardly pro-industry.

THAT said, I would point out onw flaw with Jim's "Logic" here, that is to ask exactly where does one draw the line between a "humble indie developer" and one who is not. I say this because there is an increasing trend for giant corperate monsters to gobble up indie studios, orhave people knock off their stuff and/or create stuff in sub-companies that pretends to be indie for purposes of sales. A lot of issues that tend to come to the surface when people ask "is indie a genere?" since there are degrees of independance within it, and of course as any fanboy can tell you, a lot of these studios inevitably sell out.

For example if one was to ask about say Popcap, Zynga, and Spiderweb, most people would agree Spiderweb is indie, Zynga is a horrible corperate monster, and then argue about Popcap given it's actual size, quality of games, where it started, and who it's allied with.

I'm not exactly pro-pirate so I have no vested interest, just an academic point that I think Jim needs to go into for his rant. If he's going to argue something like this, I think he needs to draw the line for his arguement to have any real weight, since he's argueing in a very general format by giving examples, but no hard line.

That said, on a totally unrelated note my sole problem with the Humble Indie Bundle is that I bought a couple of them, but wound up losing the codes/E-mail for them. It would be nice if they came up with a somewhat better system. But then again it's been a while since I've tried to re-access those games. Last time was when I was thinking about tinkering with Aquaria and found out I had no idea how to get back to my copy since I never thought ahead to putting them on STEAM or anything which I guess you can do.
 

Raesvelg

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dbenoy said:
However, It makes me uncomfortable to see someone so casually dismissing the creative destruction of copyright as it exists today with just 'yeah well maybe they should have been more original' :( Why is your vision of how an artist should produce his works so worthy of receiving the force of law? Should Walt Disney have been sued into oblivion when he created a movie inspired by Alice in Wonderland, or Tarzan? Under today's copyright law, Disney would be long dead before those works became public domain. Should the choice to re-envision those tales have been stripped from him?
Ah, but Disney would certainly have had the option to license those works from the copyright holder, if the works had not already gone into the public domain. If he'd truly been motivated to produce his own vision of those works, he would have been able to.

Without stealing anything, without getting sued by anyone. Indeed, quite possibly without paying any significant amount of money up front, depending on the property in question.

As for copyright duration, I can't say that it particularly bothers me. Creative endeavors are not like life-saving medicines; no one is going to die because they can't write a Terminator slash fic.

dbenoy said:
TOR need not have created their entire project from scratch in a post-copyright world; just enough to make it new and exciting and draw customers. Certainly that, and the lack of royalties, offsets whatever business would be lost to competition.
Chicken/egg problem. Here you argue that TOR would not have had to develop an entirely new game, simply adapt existing software, which had to have come from somewhere. Given the scope of the project, the problem remains.

Remember, hundreds of millions of dollars. This is the scale the entertainment industry operates on today, and it's a scale made possible by the laws currently in existence.

dbenoy said:
First, it's an extreme technical challenge to clone a game server with access only to a client, and nearly impossible to keep up to date with a server that has frequent content releases.
Not as hard, however, as developing the game from scratch. If I can, let's say, make a copy of your game server for 10% of the development costs that you expended in creating it (and the rest of the game) in the first place, with the same number of developers and responsiveness in server updates, I can undercut your subscription fees, or your item fees in a "free" MMO model, with relative ease.

There's no need to "keep up", since I'm not copying you after the initial act, but rather taking your work and using it for myself.

Here, you could argue that increased competition would be good for the customer. The problem is that, with the inherent chilling effect that would occur without any sort of IP protection, there would be no game of that scope to begin with. There'd be no reliable way to recoup the initial investment.

What you wind up with is a great deal of incentive to take and adapt the work of others, but very little incentive to create the initial work to begin with, particularly if doing so is a significant investment of time and/or capital.

While there would be less direct "theft" in media such as film and print (re-editing a film to a particular vision having been met with less-than-resounding applause from man quarters lately, and in print the name of the author is typically what sells a book, rather than the universe in which it is set), in the gaming medium, I expect that the sort of AAA games we enjoy today would cease to exist very rapidly.

As for the rest...

Yes, clearly things in a post-copyright world would be different. What I suspect we will not agree on, however, is that things would be better. I know quite a few professional authors, for example, many of whom probably would not be able to make a living without some measure of IP protection. You may trust that people would express their appreciation of a given author's work with financial recompense; I am substantially less confident.

Without protection, you may see a broader pool of creation, but it would almost undoubtedly be a substantially shallower pool, where the individual creators, instead of creating professionally, did so in their spare time. Rather than a given author writing a book a year, he might do so once every five.

At which point he would be George R. R. Martin, and I would hate him forever.

Humor aside, I suspect we would see vastly fewer actors, authors, and artists performing at anything over an amateur level of proficiency in a world without copyright.
 

Aeonknight

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While I applaud the sentiment Jim... there's just 1 problem.

You can't decide if the same act of piracy is right or wrong, based on who you're ripping off.

You can take candy from a baby, you can take candy from the schoolyard bully, either scenario still puts YOU in the wrong. Even if one is a little less severe morally.

But I'm glad to see Jim hasn't overreacted to the SOPA scare and can still be objectional to a degree on something like piracy.
 

UltraPic

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LazyAza said:
I don't even understand why piracy of indi games still exists, when you have steam where you can download like 50 games for free anyway and the average indi title is anywhere between 1 and 10 dollars piracy just seems like a waste of time and effort, just to be an asshole.
How are they "indie" games if they are being sold by a big publisher.
 

Agayek

Ravenous Gormandizer
Oct 23, 2008
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UltraPic said:
How are they "indie" games if they are being sold by a big publisher.
Steam isn't an publisher, it's a distribution service. Your statement is effectively "How is Game Y an indie game when it's sold by GameStop?" You see the dissonance there?
 

T_ConX

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One point I'm sad Jim didn't address was the effects resulting from stories similar the World of Goo 90% piracy rate fiasco. When a major publisher see's a cheap, DRM-free indie game have a 90% piracy rate... well, let's look at it from a cost-benefit analysis point of view...

You're part of the top brass a major game publisher, and you've got a hot title coming down the pipeline. You have to decide whether or not you want to implement a DRM scheme

-Make the game DRM free.
Oh, the game will sell alright, but you've given the pirates a free pass to get the game for nothing, which is going to compromise your sales*. You probably won't suffer a 90% piracy rate, but anything over 25% is going to really eat into your sales numbers.

-Load that thing with the HARDEST DRM KNOWN TO MAN
You're going to piss off some people. They'll cry fowl on message boards, and try to organize boycotts. It'll affect your sale a little. Not even a full 1%, at most.

Most of the companies that produce triple-A titles are publicly traded companies, where the top executives are required to make decisions that will maximize profits. This means maximizing sales, which means choosing the course that will result in the fewest lost sales, which means they tend to go with the DRM option.

I just know someone is going to say "It's not like I was going to buy it anyway, so it's not a lost sale."

No. Nope. No way. Not believing it. You say you never had the intention of buying the game... but you most certainly have every intention of PLAYING it. Well, it that just happens to be the exact reason the rest of us are buying the game. If you want to play the game, YOU BUY IT. Just like the rest of us.
 

daxterx2005

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I've never heard of any of those games believe it or not.
As far as the pedoburgs...The only excuse I could think for their behavior would be that they're like me in the sense that they dont use paypal/dont have credit cards and only use cold hard cash for transactions.
But I can understand where Jim is coming from with his hatred, its quite shitty what they're doing.