JRPGs

[Cenequus]

RPGs are all about immersion and jrpg characters are most of he times effeminate angsty whinning emo teenagers. I could never identify myself as one or imagine them in a war scenario. No matter how fantasy or supernatural an RPG is you don't send kids to save the world.
Graphics are very annoying and just try to rape your eyes. Don't get me wrong I hate on the ame way grey or monochrome landscapes sometime WRPGs do(the muddy Morrowind is a good example) but in jrpg the colour just seems random generated.
Story,maybe it's the strongest part but it is the same across different games of different developers. Also many times is stretched to the point where it seems to be watching a soap opera. I remember some te ago trying to play final fantasy(7 or 8 don't remember) and after playing for about 5 hours I not even didn't knew anything about the main story but each 30 mins cutscene we're just like watching some random MTV teenager program with stuff happening hat not only had no relation to the sory but no relation to a game in general,was lie watching some random anime.
Gameplay: random encounters and turn base strategy. I don't know if they still do this things but they are obsolete. They were obsolete 10 years and annoying 20 years ago,and I'm talking about wrpgs so really don'tuse them.

 

[Chibz]

Ya some games improve on some things, I was talking in general where JRPGs go wrong and most don't even attempt to move forward.

Except most quality JRPGs don't fall under any of those "flaws". If you want to try some good JRPGs, I've got some recommended playing for you... (take it to PMs with me, first PM should include which systems you have/are willing to buy).

final fantasy(7 or 8 don't remember)

They were obsolete 10 years and annoying 20 years ago,and I'm talking about wrpgs so really don'tuse them.

You started playing JRPGs with FF7 or 8? Gross. You know what? I'm extending you the same offer.

Most Wrpgs also feature random encounters. It's just more subtly hidden.

 

[The Madman]

Last console I owned before the current generation was a Sega Genesis. I never played 'JRPG' simply because I've always been more of a PC gamer and it's a relatively obscure niche on the PC largely consisting of terrible ports and weird disturbing fetish games from what little I know of them. Creepy!

That said I have tried a couple. Final Fantasy 6 I actually really enjoyed in yonder olden days and bought to play on DS a few years back and enjoyed immensely. I kinda like turn based combat and the lighthearted fairy-tale approach to storytelling was fantastic. It was a fun experience.

The problem with most anything beyond that however is simply that I don't like anime. It's nothing grand, I'm still fine with small doses like in Advance Wars and the like. But honestly I'm just not a fan of the art style nor the approach to storytelling which from what few examples of games I've played seems to be overly melodramatic and moody without any real context or reason. I don't like that at all and it's a sure way to ensure I ignore that product. And the more modern the graphics get the harder and harder it is to ignore those cartoony anime influences. Which is odd, you'd think the style would be better represented in 2D, but no, everything after little pixel sprites just seems to be getting more and more outrageously anime to me.

Admittedly I'm stereotyping here and I've absolutely no doubt whatsoever that there are exceptions to what I just stated. No doubt to a whole lot of people who read this I sound like an ignorant idiot, which is fine because on this subject I am. There are almost certainly a great, great many exceptions to what I just said.

Problem is I've no clue what those are and even if I did I get the feeling I missed this proverbial train a long long time ago. It's just too late for me to enjoy this stuff now, leave me behind, I'm done for.

 

[Nieroshai]

(except VII, I do see plenty reason to hate on that one)

Just out of curiosity, why?

OT: I love the Final Fantasy and Kingdom Heart series, but they're the only JRPGs I've played and liked. Others...well meh.

The problem is (and FF is not excluded from this) is that JRPGs do follow a lot of clichés. Whilst sometimes this works...a lot of the time it gets tedious. Also, character archetypes are generally the same. Looking at the last few Final Fantasy games, you can easily pick out similar characters:
The Spunky Girl: Yuffie, Selphie, Eiko, Rikku, Penelo, Vanille.
The Lone Warrior: Cloud, Squall, Amarant, Lightning.
The Love Interest (and usually White Mage): Aeries, Rinoa, Garnet, Yuna.
The Evil Overlord of some sort: Rufus (Shinra), Edea, Brahne, Seymour, Vane, Galenth Dysley/ Baldanders.

I mean, these archetypes obviously work, but they do get a bit samey.

Additionally, I do find that a lot of the games tend to over complicate things that could probably be made easier, such as menus. After a while you get the hang of it, but at first it can be a bit daunting. And turn based combat is a bit...meh. I did like FFX-2's though.

Correction: even IF you dated Aeris in ff7, you still got the romance dialogue with Tifa before they descend into the crater and through the whole game it continuously expounds on how much Cloud means to Tifa, so Aeris is really just there to be the martyr and messianic figure who saves the heroes from beyond the veil. All she did was die and make Cloud wear a dress.

 

[Chibz]

That said I have tried a couple. Final Fantasy 6 I actually really enjoyed in yonder olden days and bought to play on DS a few years back and enjoyed immensely. I kinda like turn based combat and the lighthearted fairy-tale approach to storytelling was fantastic. It was a fun experience.

Tell you what, send me a PM with consoles you own/JRPGs you enjoyed. Similar games you enjoyed, too and I'll hook you up with some fun JRPGs. Or die heroically trying.

I always wanted to be a martyr, but I always end up a Marty.

 

[MacChris1991]

I think one of the biggest things are that only a few jrpg titles make it to the states (and not necessaraliy the better ones) . And even the better games suffer from poor translations, censorship and simple (but nearly insurmountable) cultural differences that leave most players scratching their heads.

 

[T.D.]

Here's a list of things I don't get.

Why there are so many threads about JRPG's
Why so many care about the art style (Would TF2 be any better with different graphics)
Why so many are opposed to Turn Based Strategy (NOT FF13 variation of it I can understand the hate for that)

What I can answer are things like these,

Why there are so many angsty characters in JRPG,

This is why,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan

Why hasn't JRPG's evolved,

Has FPS's evolved? Not really. Evolution in gameplay mechanics usually only change when technology allows them to do what they want. JRPG's were one of the first console games and their game mechanics mirror this. You can't really improve upon TBS with technology beyond graphics.

Why the characters are so often copy&paste in JRPG's,

I don't think you can complain only at JRPG's for this, every genre has these character issues.


On Random Encounters,

Yes they are annoying, and technology today dictates alternatives (e.g. at least seeing the enemy), but they can add a sense of desperation and fear if done correctly

 

[Baralak]

I actually have a hard time getting into the the western ones like Dragon Age, the Witcher or Mass Effect.

about the only Western RPGs I like so far are Fallout and Borderlands.

What is so bad about games like Final Fantasy (except VII, I do see plenty reason to hate on that one), Tales of Symphonia, Disgaea, and Kingdom Hearts?

yeah I have the same problem, and Fallout and Borderlands are FPSrpg's so...I don't think they count.

I love the JRPG's that I've played:
Tales of Symphonia (love it to death)
Chono Trigger
Paper Mario 2
etc.

But I think the label of JRPG hurts it along with lack of advertisement for JRPGs in the west.
I mean the only time you really hear about one is from a fanboy or a hater...

Also I loved Symphonia...but I can't get into the 2nd one because of that whining crappy main character...does anyone know it gets better...I mean Lloyd was a perfect main...

I loved Dawn of the New World. Beat it with a friend, we loved every minute. I'm a fan of Emil and Marta, they're both highly relatable to me, and their romance felt genuine. That said, you do get all the characters from Symphonia back into your party, although you can't customize them.

 

[Cenequus]

final fantasy(7 or 8 don't remember)

They were obsolete 10 years and annoying 20 years ago,and I'm talking about wrpgs so really don'tuse them.

You started playing JRPGs with FF7 or 8? Gross. You know what? I'm extending you the same offer.

Most Wrpgs also feature random encounters. It's just more subtly hidden.

Hey it wasn't something I randomly choose,I was told t was the best that this genre offered(press X tono have fun ).

Wasn't my only experience when I was a kid(the days of the nintendo)and some on PC,I tried Chronotrigger,Secret of Mana,Final fantasy 1-4, Knights of Xentar and several similar games. I think there was actually an rpg creator that made similar stuff. Some I finished some just didn't feel like continuing.

Now like I said those were the times of random encounters and turn base strategy in all rpgs so I had no problem with that then. Also graphics were what were at that times so no bright blinding colours so that was ok too.The story was the same as the jrpgs today but since back then it wasn't that used it didn't bothered me that much. Characters we're kinda the same but interactions were few and far twn that it wasn't that annoying. ow the reason while I didn't like them back there either:boss fights. The less annoying type was fighting the weaknes and exploit it for the next minutes(nd this was the better one) or what i always hated and will never understand it was the kill tentace 1 then 2 then 3 then X then damage the body then finally attack the head for the kill. Now don't get me rong I've seen this even on wrpgs but usually on titles that were bad games anyway. One recent example that comes to my mind is Daggerdale(which I actually thought was ok untill the final fight...the rage kill claws then head then QTE flying dragon)...the horror.

 

[The Madman]

Tell you what, send me a PM with consoles you own/JRPGs you enjoyed. Similar games you enjoyed, too and I'll hook you up with some fun JRPGs. Or die heroically trying.

I always wanted to be a martyr, but I always end up a Marty.

Might as well make it a post.

Let's see, I own a Nintendo console, you know, the old grey box ones that barely worked when they were new and now only seem to work when you beg and plead with the thing on your knees and have presumably sacrificed a loved one to try and earn the damned things favour, and even then it's sketchy. I've got a Genesis, which still works just fine. Various gameboy throughout the years till the semi-modern DS, which I own a few games for. My gaming PC which is quickly getting out of date, a laptop that has nothing to do with gaming so no clue why I even mention it, and a Wii which is mostly used to play Mario games and retro games from the NES and Genesis era, go figure. My understanding is that most of the 'iconic jrpg' are on the Playstation, none of which I own. I'm also pretty against piracy and by extension emulation, so that's out as well.

That's about it though. As for games, played a few of the Final Fantasy games though the only old sprite one I ever particularly found memorable was 6. FF7 I played since it had a pc port, was alright. I never beat the ending after my savegame got corrupted while climbing down some giant demon-hole thing to presumably fight Sephiroth. Never liked it enough to replay it after that, but whatever, was enjoyable. And 8 was also ported to the PC but I hated it with a fiery passion. Seriously, you can't just seque out of the main character being stabbed through the heart and go on like it never happened. That doesn't work. It's shitty storytelling! The game built up this grand dramatic 'assassination' attempt at the end of the first disk that achieved seemingly nothing story wise and only pissed my off by proving how inept the storytelling was.

You can get away with some deviation from the classical story arc and a few plotholes are fine. But that was just stretching the limits of believability wayyyy past the point of breaking and beyond return. It's that sort of tripe that gives the genre a bad view in my eyes. Bah Humbug!

Anyway, also played about half-way through Chrono Trigger since I'd heard it was not unlike Final Fantasy 6. Was enjoying good what I played, not quite sure why I stopped. Pretty sure I just got distracted by something shiny in the distance and wandered off to gawk at it!

Have a friend who tried to push the modern Final Fantasy games on me... that ended badly. Don't like all the CGI stuffs and blatant pretty-boys. Shallow of me, I know, but hell it's only a game and when it comes to entertainment shallow is fine. Then he tried to introduce me to the Persona series, at least I think that was it. Teenage youngsters shooting themselves? Yeah, didn't like it. At all. No clue if I've even got the names right but judging by a quick google search that seems right. I know someone who loves the Kingdom Heart series, but I'm not allowed to look at that game in their presence anymore because I inevitably burst into long-winded rants about the poor games and how they're defiling a classic legacy of Disney golden-era excellence.

I would probably like Final Fantasy tactics since I'm a sucker for HoM&M, X-Com, or Advance Wars style tactical games and that seems sorta kinda similar but never got the chance to play it myself despite having looked into it. But still, maybe that's a good starting point in the search for something I don't instinctively hate.

Beyond that I know nothing. Someone I know occasionally comes over and talks about the anime stuff they're into and tries to share their interest, but it's never worked and at this point I doubt it ever will. I'd prefer to keep the pointy-haired angst to a minimum if possible, not my cup o tea!

 

[Mintyflesh]

You know, I kind of feel like when people complain about JRPGs, mostly they're just complaining about Final Fantasy games. Sometimes, if you're lucky, you'll get someone who'll branch out and touch maybe the Dragon Quest or stuff by Tri Ace or Monolith, but most of the hate focuses squarely on FF. (Also Kingdom Hearts, which has always struck me as kind of insane. HEY DOUBLE DRAGON IS A TERRIBLE RPG.) When people DO branch out, they seem to mostly include stuff in the PSX era. No one ever bitches about, you know, Valkyria Chronicles or Resonance of Fate, or something cheap and quirky by Gust. It's always ALL THE GUYS LOOK LIKE GIRLS AND EVERYONE HAS A TON OF ZIPPERS. What is up with that?

 

[Mintyflesh]

My understanding is that most of the 'iconic jrpg' are on the Playstation, none of which I own. I'm also pretty against piracy and by extension emulation, so that's out as well.

Poor Phantasy Star and Shining Games, no one ever cares about you. :`(

And 8 was also ported to the PC but I hated it with a fiery passion. Seriously, you can't just seque out of the main character being stabbed through the heart and go on like it never happened. That doesn't work. It's shitty storytelling! The game built up this grand dramatic 'assassination' attempt at the end of the first disk that achieved seemingly nothing story wise and only pissed my off by proving how inept the storytelling was.

I will absolutely agree with this. VIII was freaking terrible. "You will go to a dimension where the very fabric of reality will tear you apart. The only way to survive is... FRIENDSHIP!" Man, really?

 

[TheEvilCheese]

Ok, so I hear it all the time on Yahtzee's reviews and from a lot of other people on the forums, but I generally do want to know what people seem to have against JRPGs.

I actually have a hard time getting into the the western ones like Dragon Age, the Witcher or Mass Effect.

about the only Western RPGs I like so far are Fallout and Borderlands.

What is so bad about games like Final Fantasy (except VII, I do see plenty reason to hate on that one), Tales of Symphonia, Disgaea, and Kingdom Hearts?

I think, as has no doubt been said many times, that people don't get on with the character archetypes. It can be an odd genre to get into if you are unused to the usual tropes.
Also, a lot of current gamers[footnote]not on the escapist, but among people I know[/footnote] simply don't enjoy playing turn based games (many JRPGS).

I get the hate for the story and characters in most JRPGs, but anyone who complains about those in say Chrono Trigger I simply can't understand.

 

[Iron Lightning]

Ok, so I hear it all the time on Yahtzee's reviews and from a lot of other people on the forums, but I generally do want to know what people seem to have against JRPGs.

Well, for me it's the linearity. Almost every JRPG has a completely linear story where the player's rare if even present choices have no effect on the world. In fact I don't really consider most JRPGs to be proper RPGs. A roleplaying game where you can only play one pre-determined role (clarification: while combat roles in JRPGs are occasionally customizable, the important role: that of the player's character is, in my experience, never meaningfully alterable) isn't really a roleplaying game. If it was, then every game ever made would be a RPG. I submit to you that (in my experience) all JRPGs are not really RPGs but merely adventure games with a huge emphasis on combat.

You said in your original post that you liked Fallout. What did you like about Fallout? Did you like how you were free to decide your own morality and combat role (or lack there of)? Did you like how you were able to create your own story? Did you like the choices that made a difference?

I like how I had the option to get a new water purification chip for your vault or to let it rot. I like how I can fight any person in the game. I like how I can fully control my dialogue. I like being able to take on companions and to abandon them. I like freedom. I like choice. I have never seen a JRPG that offers those things.

 

[Krinku]

Hmm... I for one love RPGs in general WRPGS and JRPGS as long as the games good. I do see some problems that some people would see:

-Character Archetypes
-Story is hit or miss
-Culture Differences
-Gameplay can be linear

Thing is though...we don't even get too many good JRPGs to base anything off of in the first place, and even if a JRPG gets localized the translation might be crappy ruining the whole thing.

 

[TheEvilCheese]

snipped for sanity.

Well, I just joined the conversation, but I have to respond now.

1. Finish Chrono Trigger. (I got part way through a couple of times but when I finally completed it I was like 'How have I not done this before?')

2. Fire Emblem is always worth a try if you liked advance wars. (Fire emblem (GBA) is my favourite)

3. I totally agree with you on Kingdom Hearts and the new final fantasy games, they just don't seem right to me.

4. Generally have a look at the less popular stuff, for an interesting battle system something like 'The World Ends With You' might be a good choice, but it is angsty-teenager-with-silly-hair-character-driven-story. (Lots of story... LOTS OF TEXT) The characters do show more than one dimension though, as the story progresses. It's one of those love-or-hate games. I love it.

5. I've never played FF: Tactics, but from what I hear it is worth a shot.


Above all, try things that aren't final fantasy, or anything to heavy at first.

 

[Chibz]

SNIP

Well, I see you didn't play Secret of Mana which is available on the Wii. Final Fantasy 4 on the virtual console too. Might as well pick up FF1, as long as you understand that it might not have aged well.

I'd also recommend Phantom Brave: We Meet Again. It's a fantastic Tactical JRPG, and some Sakura Wars: So Long, My Love wouldn't be a bad bet too.

Genesis? Phantasy Star. Definitely Phantasy Star games.

Oooh, you've got a DS. Final Fantasy 3, Dragon Quest 9. I'm fond of the Pokemon games (THEY COUNT), and Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker. But your milage may vary.

Got a PS2? If so, I've got some fantastic titles for that to recommend, too.

EDIT: I don't enjoy newer FF games either. Can't defend them.

 

[Plinglebob]

Stuff

Something I would like to pick up on with your comments is how you feel WRPGs give you choice and JRPGs give you the "Illusion of Choice" as I think you're wrong here. Personally, I've always felt WRPGs give the Illusion of Choice where as JRPGs give you no choice at all.

In WRPGs, you are given the oppotunity to complete quests in any order and customize your character how you want but in the end the story won't actually change aside from how you kill things and how some NPCs will react. For example in Dragon Age, after the unique starting zone, you have no influence over the story. You must become a Gray Warden, you must do all the main story beats and no matter what the arch-demon will die in the end. The fact that you can help or kill the mages has no point to it other then to make the player think they have an effect on the game world. I will agree that the TES/Modern Fallout games are better at the player choice option and Eve Online is probably the only RPG where I'd say you really have choice on what to do. All other WRPGs just keep dangling the "Choice" options saying they're better and people fall for it every time.

In JRPGs, you have no choice. All your characters are set, the story is fixed and the only real option you have is your team make-up (and sometimes not even that). However, they never try to pretend otherwise. The JRPG fans I know all accept that when you buy a JRPG, you're going to get a certain formula and this is even more true with a long running series like Final Fantasy (this, by the way, is one of the reasons why FF12 has a bad rep). If you don't enjoy the formula, then thats fair enough, but don't think a format should change just to suit you.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Stuff

Something I would like to pick up on with your comments is how you feel WRPGs give you choice and JRPGs give you the "Illusion of Choice" as I think you're wrong here. Personally, I've always felt WRPGs give the Illusion of Choice where as JRPGs give you no choice at all.

In WRPGs, you are given the oppotunity to complete quests in any order and customize your character how you want but in the end the story won't actually change aside from how you kill things and how some NPCs will react. For example in Dragon Age, after the unique starting zone, you have no influence over the story. You must become a Gray Warden, you must do all the main story beats and no matter what the arch-demon will die in the end. The fact that you can help or kill the mages has no point to it other then to make the player think they have an effect on the game world. I will agree that the TES/Modern Fallout games are better at the player choice option and Eve Online is probably the only RPG where I'd say you really have choice on what to do. All other WRPGs just keep dangling the "Choice" options saying they're better and people fall for it every time.

In JRPGs, you have no choice. All your characters are set, the story is fixed and the only real option you have is your team make-up (and sometimes not even that). However, they never try to pretend otherwise. The JRPG fans I know all accept that when you buy a JRPG, you're going to get a certain formula and this is even more true with a long running series like Final Fantasy (this, by the way, is one of the reasons why FF12 has a bad rep). If you don't enjoy the formula, then thats fair enough, but don't think a format should change just to suit you.

It depends on the JRPG and WRPG, really. Devil Survivor (a JRPG) has an insane number of choices, and is a strong contender for the best implementation of choice in any game I've played so far. And I don't think you could classify something like Witcher 2 or Fallout: New Vegas as offering only the illusion of choice, either.

 

[Plinglebob]

It depends on the JRPG and WRPG, really. Devil Survivor (a JRPG) has an insane number of choices, and is a strong contender for the best implementation of choice in any game I've played so far. And I don't think you could classify something like Witcher 2 or Fallout: New Vegas as offering only the illusion of choice, either.

I admit I've never heard of Devil Survivor and I mentioned Fallout as a step in the right direction. I still haven't gotten round to playing Witcher 2, but from what I've heard it sounds like its another leap in how RPGs should go. I was aiming more towards those that keep saying how Bioware games are better then JRPGs because they have choice, when really they don't.

*Goes and researches Devil Survivor*