JRPGs

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Richardplex

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I don't like Turn Based combat. I have nothing else against JRPGs. Any WRPG that uses it I dislike just as much, JRPGs that don't use it, I don't dislike. It's just that JRPG generally implies TBC, thus generally implies my dislike. Also, if a game near forces me to farm, I put that game down. I don't like WoW for the same reason, despite how I played it for 3 years. Compulsion is a bad thing.
 

CM156_v1legacy

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Zhukov said:
*shrug*

I hate the combat, I usually hate the characters, I always hate the dialogue and I really hate the visual design.

What more would you like to know?
This man speekith the truth.

OT: I like WRPGs because, more often then not, I can create my own character. Let's take my favorite WRPG and compare it to a JRPG I rencently gave up on, FFXIII

In Neverwitner Nights 2, I could create my own character. Drow Monk? Aasimar Sorcerer? Half-orc Paladin? Human Rogue? Tiefling Cleric? Gnome Fighter? Halfling Wizard? You get the idea. Then I can pick their diety and alignment. And set them loose on the world. For the most part, I am a blank slate, so I can have my own canon backstory if I so want. I get to chose how I react to problems as well. For example:
A merchant is being robbed, do I:
1) Charge in combat, and shield him with my... er.. shield?
2) Join the robbers?
3) Kill them both and take the lewt for myself?

In JRPGs, I often don't have that option. I DO have a backstory created by the game, and a physical appearence as well. Combat is turned based (Which I don't mind as a fan of d20), but it is rarely done well. And it is too slow.

The art design for WRPGs seems more practical, while for JRPGs it's rather "out there"

But hey, that's not to say I think WRPGs are better in every way. I love pokemon, which is, in fact, a JRPG. I just prefer them
 

thedoclc

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It is entirely preference. Preference is neither right nor wrong. People will not like what you like; stop thinking that that is their problem. It's not. It's your problem for being unable to accept they dislike what you like. Period. End Thread. Oh, wait, some comments.

Here are some reasons many players prefer the WRPG.

Player Choice
WRPGs are built on the model created by the tabletop games from which they descended. Almost all WRPGs are designed to maximize player choices and feature branching plotlines. In addition, they tend to have an aesthetics which are decidedly Western, hold the player responsible for the decisions they make, and feature characters who follow the tropes of Western heroes. This is true of almost all great WRPGs - as quickly as developers could find ways to give the player more responsibility for what occurs in the game, they did. From Ultima, through the Black Isle and Interplay days, through Bioware's latest and greatest, the WRPG has always built depth around choice.

The JRPG has almost never featured significant player influence on the decisions characters make. Player choice was pretty much limited to, "Do I complete this chain of subquests exactly the way the developer wants me to or not?" While this makes for easier (I completely disagree about it being better - go play Torment right now) storytelling, this does mean the player pretty much decides bupkiss as far as the plot and character development goes.

Characterization and Theme
In addition, the JRPG currently uses heavily stylized scenes and combat styles that rely on spectacle. The effect is hit and miss on audiences. Too much of it causes viewers to grow bored or - worse yet - dismiss the characters entirely when they go back to "lining up and waiting their turn." For a WRPG example of this, consider how annoyed ME2 players were when Jack devastates a large number of enemies like some crazed bat out of hell, then turns back into a standard support NPC when she enters the party.

Many players find turn-based combat quite annoying. This statement needs no clarification.

Many players like the Japanese aesthetic of character design. Many players do not. I am shooting from the hip here, but there seems to be a pronounced pattern in Asia that the hero is visually different. Western male heroes are more masculine and tend to be older. They look like they've seen some things. Asian male heroes tend to be less masculine, softer-looking, and younger. For me{/i], this buries immersion. I can't believe this child-like C is somehow the warrior archetype. I'm sure there's a serious discussion to be had here about storytelling archetypes cross-culturally, but that's neither here nor there. Female action heroes in the West tend to follow a less pronounced pattern; they're tough -and- women, with their femininity not taking away from being tough. Japanese RPG female characters are often drawn as being terribly, incredibly feminine.

There also tends to be a story-gameplay disconnect. Yahtzee hinted at this in his FF13 review. Characters in JRPGs often have a confidence issue that leads them to have serious angst - and then proceed to kick the tar out of a dozen guards at once as soon as combat starts. Yet we're expected to continue to emphasize with their angst. This is hard on the western audience since (1) that person keeps claiming to be weak after defeating a small army and (2) most western viewers really do not like watching characters suffer angst. It's hard to care about their emotional problems when they are characters - let alone they are the supposed heroes. WRPGs tend to cast less "fragile" heroes. Kaim Arganor was one of the few JRPG heroes to not irk the crap out of me in a long while; he starts like another Cloud-clone, but then quickly develops a tragic and moving backstory and reasonable human response. Then, when the big dramatic question is raised and Act I is over, Kaim doesn't sit there and whine about his fate. Sure, he's hurt, but more than that, he gets up to do what is necessary. This is a very "western friendly" concept of the heroic character.

Grind and Adventures
Many players find grind to be quite annoying. This -does- need clarification. Grind is needed in an MMO since the plot usually takes a back seat to other activities. However, turn your eyes back to the idea of WRPG's roots, table top RPGs. A good GM throws few pointless random encounters in. Too many, and players feel bored since they feel like they are simply fighting without purpose. WRPGs moved very quickly away from grind. Monsters which had nothing to do with the plot were extremely limited; encounters should be thematically tied to the location they occur in and enemies generally stand as a direct barrier to the player's goal. In a good WRPG, the player does not have to grind and typically feels no incentive to do so; the player is a hero on a quest, not interested in beating down every stray creature in sight. JRPGs as a rule do not follow this model at all when building adventuring sites. Instead, you randomly walk into a haphazard collection of enemies who often have little or no reason to oppose your party. It's just what they do as they sit there, waiting invisibly on the map. Let's consider two nearly contemporaneous classics, Baldur's Gate II and Final Fantasy IV. FFIV was grind-tastic most of the time, and a journey to any one location often involved dozens of battles which did not further the plot or story at all. Baldur's Gate II featured an occasional one-off encounter on your way to a destination, but mostly kept encounters limited to creatures thematically linked to whatever a player was doing in the area. It also relied on less encounters.

Combat
WRPGs also show their table top roots in how they allow players to tackle obstacles with varied tactics and decisions. Most JRPG combat still fits the model of line up and whack things, even as recently as Lost Odyssey. Even when they don't, JRPG combat often uses a very transparently "game-like" system: think Enchanted Arms or Final Fantasy Tactics. WRPGs use their mechanics to build some combat system which (IMHO) rewards player innovation and decision making within those mechanics. Consider how Mass Effect 2 had simple builds for characters, but very complex, dynamic combat. Contrast this with the deep spell lists, stealth, and thousand other options available in a game like Icewind Dale. Consider just how many different ways one could approach the problem of storming a gate full of Daedra in Oblivion. WRPGs have generally given players a more "combatty" feel for how fighting works in that world while the JRPG has often had some unusual ideas and systems which just seem odd to Westerners. I still believe this comes out of the idea that WRPGs descend from TT RPGs which descend from wargames, leading the WRPG to follow its mechanics as a simulation (however weird) of combat and the JRPG treating it as a game element. In a WRPG, sending your thief-type character forward to scout is often a valid option. In a JRPG...not so much.

"Oh, but I play RPGs only for the story!"
Well, sure, fine. But gameplay in my opinion is the heart of a game and the engine room. Many WRPGs pay a great deal of attention to ensuring the -gameplay- is as engaging as the plot. You are entitled to the opinion that plot can excuse bad gameplay. I disagree entirely. This issue is simply a difference of opinion, but I will say that many WRPGs have proven you can deliver exciting, deep, fast-moving, non-grindy gameplay and still have an exciting, deep, intricate plot. So a good plot is in no way incompatible with good gameplay, and I do not believe it excuses bad gameplay.

Interactivity
This one is simple. Much of a typical JRPG experience is spent watching (or reading!) exposition which the player takes in passively. Much of a typical WRPG - even one as dependent on conversation as Torment - is spent making decisions and interacting with the game world. Many players do not want to just watch the game talk to itself.

Cultural Differences
A great deal of the nuances of JRPGs seem new to Westerners because they are Japanese! Plenty of these tropes are damn near cliches to the Japanese themselves. A great deal of the "new" ideas in the genre are only new to us. A great many more are simply represented differently. The Japanese have the same reaction to -our- cultural messages and tropes.

Consider this discussion I had with a friend while watching Akira Kurosawa's masterpiece Ran.
"Wow, this movie is amazing. I love how the Japanese presented all this. I'm not sure I've seen too many American or European films-"
"It's King Leer."
"What?"
"It's King Leer. Kurosawa was introducing Shakespeare to the Japanese in a manner they could understand, and the story was very fresh and new to them. He also did Macbeth - it's called Throne of Blood."
"...oh, wow." (dawning realization)

Or go google up Shakespeare in the Bush for a truly stunning example.

So why this aside into cultural context? Well, remember that not -everyone- is going to love the ideas from another culture as much as -you- might. It may simply not gel with a person as it has with you. There is a brief discussion of this in the Extra Credits video "Myth of the Gun," which discusses how the Japanese cultural context for force and the hero limits it to rare individuals who can internalize that power. We westerners tend to believe -anyone- can be the hero; the hero is marked by grit and determination, with the weapon and means of delivering the bad guy to his end just being a tool. (I'm cutting their discussion down horribly for length - go watch it.)

That's a -few- of the reasons I like the WRPG much more than the JRPG. No, it's not a lack of familiarity with Japanese culture; I speak a bit of the language, enjoy their cinema, and have read some of the literature. That doesn't mean I have to enjoy their games, haven't given them a fair shake, or can enjoy Japanese cuisine. (Sorry, Japan - your food is nasty to me.) It's called taste, and de gustibus non est disputandum.
 

Reincarnatedwolfgod

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i never play any off the Western RPGs or JRPGs you listed do don't know but i have played a flash game(mardek rpg) the may have been a jrpg and i don't have any problems with the game. in fact i like the game and it beats a mediocre AAA game any day IMO
 

Chibz

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Fanfic_warper said:
Ok, so I hear it all the time on Yahtzee's reviews and from a lot of other people on the forums, but I generally do want to know what people seem to have against JRPGs.
I don't hate JRPGs, I jus hate the generic mess they've become. Some of my favourite games are JRPGs!
 

zhoominator

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Zhukov said:
*shrug*

I hate the combat, I usually hate the characters, I always hate the dialogue and I really hate the visual design.

What more would you like to know?
You know, because every JRPG is like FF, right? Right?!

The correct answer is: no.

I think that's the problem most people have. A big part of this problem is also that many JRPGs stay in Japan and never get released over here, so we have an incredibly narrow perception of the genre, so it would be kinda like if I were to base my opinion on Australian television solely on Neighbours and Home and Away, the only two shows that people in the UK can watch on Freeview (well, pretty much anyway). Of course that would be unfair and also rather silly, but that doesn't stop Westerners making exactly these presumptions when it comes to Japanese media.

Not only that, when products do come over, they often don't remain entirely intact. Often the stories will be significantly changed when they are released here. Power Rangers and Card Captors are extreme and probably well known examples of this but it crops up all over the place. On many occasions if you hate the crap plot, it isn't the JRPG you should blame but the shitty localisation team who may dilute or outright change a story to pander to a larger American audience.
 

Lt. Vinciti

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?Tend to follow linear plots, with less of a Wide Open Sandbox setting.
?The player usually controls a party of predesigned characters. The player is sometimes offered a choice of what characters to use, but not the option of designing his own protagonists.
?The party members are usually written into the plot, rather than blank slates.
?A linear plot and lack of character creation that, hopefully, allows a more cinematic and tightly-scripted story.
?Later games tend to have one or more elaborate, minigame-like "systems" (such as the License Grid in Final Fantasy XII) that allow skill and ability customization.
?Random Encounters are a common gameplay element.
?Turn-based combat is also prominent.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EasternRPG

My dislike stems from these fine examples....
 

madwarper

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JWRosser said:
The problem is (and FF is not excluded from this) is that JRPGs do follow a lot of clichés. Whilst sometimes this works...a lot of the time it gets tedious. Also, character archetypes are generally the same. Looking at the last few Final Fantasy games, you can easily pick out similar characters:
The Spunky Girl: Yuffie, Selphie, Eiko, Rikku, Penelo, Vanille.
The Lone Warrior: Cloud, Squall, Amarant, Lightning.
The Love Interest (and usually White Mage): Aeries, Rinoa, Garnet, Yuna.
The Evil Overlord of some sort: Rufus (Shinra), Edea, Brahne, Seymour, Vane, Galenth Dysley/ Baldanders.

I mean, these archetypes obviously work, but they do get a bit samey.
While I agree that cliches are well... cliche, this is not a problem that just exists within JRPGs.

The spunky girl: Tali, Sierra, Shale
The lone warrior: Shepard/Garus/Wrex, You, You/Sten
The love interest: Ashely/Liara, Amata, Everyone
The evil overlord: Saren/Sovereign, President Eden/Colonel Autumn, The archdemon

That's Mass Effect, Fallout and Dragon Age, 3 big WRPGs with the same cliche casting.
 

LordFisheh

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Dec 31, 2008
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I just really dislike the art style in most JRPGs. I don' think it's inferior or anything, it's just not to my taste.

To me, the odd hair, oversized weapons, impractical costumes, and so on just come across as really silly looking. And don't get me started on cat ears of any variety whatsoever.
 

MatsVS

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Nov 9, 2009
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People seem to think that playing pre-established characters somehow lessens the gaming experience, which is, of course, rubbish. When playing a non-defined character, such as Shepard, the Grey Warden, the Wastelander, the Prisoner, Revan, etc, etc, you sacrifice all potential of depth so that the protagonist instead functions as a glorified avatar of the player. You can, naturally, roleplay all the depth you want into your avatar, but the game will never recognize this. This has its merits, as it opens up whole new dimensions of possibilities, and it is fascinating to see how NPCs reacts to you in different ways depending on how you choose to manipulate them. The NPCs can still be great characters, after all.

However, I much prefer to play a fully fleshed out character, with specific traits, weaknesses and preferences, and see how him/her interacts with the world we explore together. It makes a whole lot more sense from a narrative standpoint, as it anchors the narrative more firmly to the protagonist and opens up the possibility of the game granting the main character an actual arc. You know, that small thing that defines all great characters through all great stories. Ever.

Why cry for the Grey Warden, when he or she was only smoke?
 

Iwata

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1- JRPG's have a generally-obnoxious, "Japanese means better" fanbase that gets annoying really fast.

2- JRPG's follow the same formula over and over again, changing... well... nothing, really.

3- The cast and characters also follow the same formula over and over again, with the same tired stereotypes being presented under not-so-different skins.

I'll be the first to admit that it's a matter of personal taste, and I'm sure some people will rave on and on (and on and on and on) on the good side of JRPG's, but for the reasons above and more, they are most definitely not my cup 'o tea. I do like Japanese games (Vanquish, Shadows of the Damned, No More Heroes, Demons' Souls) but the JRPG's are, to me, the Twilight-area of video gaming.
 

MightyRabbit

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I believe it's either a dislike of the character archetypes and designs and a general lack of interest in the battle systems, which many people see as boring, slow or too removed from reality.

Also, the fanbases tend to be arrogant and exclusionary, or just plain weird.

Oh, and a lot of JRPGs we get here are just not original, or even very good. They're like the Japanese equivalent of all those brown, boring generic shooters.

They're very much a love-it or hate-it collection of games, and I'm very much live and let live about it. It's a shame that a portion of the retractors of the genre don't do the same.
 

AlternatePFG

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I like good JRPG's but I can see why people dislike it. Honestly, I don't like the anime style but if the game is good enough I can get past it.
 
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JWRosser said:
The exact same can be said of WRPGs especially Biowares.
Fanfic_warper said:
There are plenty reasons to dislike all FF games stop singling out one game because it did have at one point in time the most obnoxious in your face fan base. Every game has reasons to dislike it.

OT: People do not like art and character style, people do not like gameplay, the fanbase. Same reasons people dislike other games there is nothing special about JRPGs in this regard.
 

Fishyash

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I like both and can appreciate both. Both of them have their goods and bads and have their own clichés and archetypes story-wise and character-wise.
 

Chibz

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Iwata said:
1- JRPG's have a generally-obnoxious, "Japanese means better" fanbase that gets annoying really fast.

2- JRPG's follow the same formula over and over again, changing... well... nothing, really.

3- The cast and characters also follow the same formula over and over again, with the same tired stereotypes being presented under not-so-different skins.
1. I don't know about the fans of more recent FF games, but most of my JRPG-enjoying friends enjoy the games we do because they're genuinely fun.

2. I'll assume you're talking gameplay here. Tell me what FF2, FF6 and Dragon Quest 9 have in common other than turn-based or pseudo-turn based combat. Even the stat systems are radically differnt.

3. Um... What? A quality JRPG won't fall under this. At all.
 

Leoofmoon

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I really like RPG's western or japanes i fnd them fun and enteraining. the FFXIII is the most BORING combat and painnuming RPG iv every played im getn XIV because i liked XI the MMO was kinda fun.
 

uzo

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thedoclc said:
Interactivity
This one is simple. Much of a typical JRPG experience is spent watching (or reading!) exposition which the player takes in passively. Much of a typical WRPG - even one as dependent on conversation as Torment - is spent making decisions and interacting with the game world. Many players do not want to just watch the game talk to itself.
This is a great point. I lived in Japan for about 7 years, and it's interesting the things that are successful in Western countries, yet not there. The prime example is Lord of the Rings. The Japanese, for whatever reason, culturally, spiritually and even purely in an entertainment fashion, do not give a crap about LotR. It's possibly the most epic film series made in my lifetime (I was born after the Star Wars series started) .... and they watch it for 30 mins and give up. It just does not interest them in the slightest.

Something culturally does not connect - think of Frodo - he's comfortable, happy, has prospects in Hobbiton, comes from a wealthy family, and has lots of friends. He's the cool guy at school you all hated because he was popular and utterly without issues. The Japanese enjoy stability, and relish 'same old same old'. Frodo leaving this life of security and running off to fight Sauron is simply illogical to them. Sure, eventually Sauron is gonna come and enslave all the Hobbits too.

But the Japanese will think "Frodo is an insignificant runt - if anyone is gonna save us, it'll be the men of Gondor" and leave it at that. Westerners enjoy the underdog-to-saviour story arc, Japanese don't unless the underdog actually has some super bullshit uber power (despite strength of character, which is Frodo's ONLY strength - and he still needs Sam to carry him half the frickin' way to Mordor). But this super bullshit uber power means he ISN'T an underdog, he's just an underachiever. However, if the story pumped up Frodo's outcast nature, and gave him some super bullshit hadoken fireball power, or let Sting do some kind of laser attack that melts orcs' faces off, and gave him the strength to rape nazgul in single combat as long as he does his pre-attack "hhhwwwoooooooaaaaaAAAARRRRR!!!" power charge, it would have been a phenomenal hit.

Hmm .. come to think of it, the Japanese don't like underdogs, they like *underachievers* - a character who, if he bothers, will kick arse all the way to Mordor. A runty little hobbit with barely a sword to his name is called Link - the classic J-underachiever who, once given purpose, can butcher *LEGIONS* of professional soldiers despite being only about 13 years old. You wouldn't see Frodo doing that.
 

Chibz

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uzo said:
BLAM, CUTMAN!
ANd now, to blow this concept out of the water.

Marona. She IS talented (She's a chroma. She can see & communicate with "spirits". A rare gift in canon). What you start off doing is, well, the best she's capable of. With how few/weak the phantoms are that fight for her, and her lack of any real combat ability herself she starts out almost as useless as frodo is. But becomes more potent over the course of the game.

Not to mention, if you call her angsty I will laugh at you. I will laugh, and laugh and forget to breath then die.

On to Frodo. This is from someone who despises LOTR, so take it with a grain of salt.

Frodo isn't an underdog. He's an unbelievably whiny little *****. He doesn't WANT to carry the ring, he barely does anything all that heroic, and overall he's a radically underdeveloped character. Only beat in being underdeveloped by his life partner, Sam.

Strength of character? You mean "betray Sam when person of OBVIOUSLY questionable loyalty does a shallow attempt at making Sam look bad"?

As an added bonus, the songs "featured" in LOTR are annoying beyond belief. They're actually worse than the people who spam lyrics over the internet. Mostly because you have no rhythm to go with them, and how awful the lyrics are. Tolkien's attempts at music should be outlawed.
 

Ruiner87

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I don't dislike JRPG's as a genre, I just hate every single one that I've ever played. Maybe one day a good JRPG will come along and change my mind. A few reasons why I've disliked every JRPG I've played so far:

1. Reused character archtypes. Dear God, every single game just has the same reskinned characters, and none of them are particularly likeable. Maybe if I could actually relate to the characters, instead of them all being angsty pricks, I would actually enjoy the games. But when the game is focused on these characters, I find it hard to enjoy.

Conversely, western RPG's either have characters that I enjoy, such as Garrus, Thane and Wrex from Mass Effect. Either this, or the player character is the only character that is important to the narrative, and as a blank slate, I get to be in charge of their personality. As such, I automatically enjoy the character. Think of the player character in games such as The Elder Scrolls, or Fallout, or Commander Shepherd from Mass Effect, whose personality is predominantly decided by me.

2. Turn based combat. I don't hate turn based combat, or even dislike it. My problem is that certain JRPG's just do this absolutely horrendously.


That's pretty much it. Really, the thing that annoys me is that the games are so heavily focused on the story and the characters, despite the story usually being uninteresting and the characters being irritating. Extra points if the story is getting in the way of gameplay, with cutscenes every eighteen seconds.