"Just go watch Porn!" (Probably NFSW, duh)

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG. How is this a different concept to grasp? Nowhere in the dictionary does it say ANYTHING about an opinion being by definition impossible to attribute a True/False value.


Here's a demonstration:

"I believe the Earth is flat"

By analysing the data available to us since Phoenician's time, we can conclude that the Earth is in fact spherical/elipsed. As such, the opinion is wrong.


What IS INDEED TRUE is that most opinions are based around more than a singular fact, and analysing the various conjectures and facts that allow a person to create an opinion about a complex topic is a very hard task, which makes it a fool's erand to immediately dismiss the opinion as wrong, or immediately laund it as right. It is, however, possible to attribute truthfulness or its abscence to any opinion, as long as the data behind it can be analyzed.


Another demonstration:

"I believe God exists" - Analyzing the data behind this opinion allows one to reach little conclusion about the veracity of the facts supporting it, so we cannot attribute an inherit right/wrong value.

"Gamergate are nothing but thugs" - By mere observation one can conclude this statement is wrong, and so are the facts that support it. As such, the OPINION is wrong.

Oh, I get how this works.

"I think we should have stricter gun control because nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway."

I shall start using this argument against people who want greater gun control since the statement "nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway" is factually wrong which makes the opinion "I think we should have stricter gun control" wrong as well.

Does this sound right?

Oh, and "I believe the Earth is flat" is not an opinion. It's a (wrong) factual statement nestled in a sentence to make it sound like an opinion.

 

[I can't enter my old name]

I don't have an issue with games tackling or displaying sexuality, nor owning to the fact that I'm playing them. If I have an issue, it's that games with a "sexual side" always seem to be engaged in what, at a cursory look, appears to be juvenile pandering. That's all well and good for those who enjoy it, but I'm well past the years in which I enjoy being pandered to in such a fashion.

I just got done posting in a "best opening scene" thread in which my submission was the opening shot for Boogie Nights, one of my favorite films of all time. Boogie Nights is an unabashedly sexual and adult film, to a degree that could be considered far more salacious and challenging of society's mores than jiggly girls playing volleyball. Its examination of sex and pornography, however, goes beyond "Here are some tits, watch them bounce". I have no problems with adults being adults in games, and that includes sex and sexuality. I'd just like to see the industry do a little growing up, or at least have some more "mature" offerings available (for lack of a better word. Sophisticated? More high brow? I don't know how to phrase that, I'm sure you know what I mean).

After doing some thinking, I realized there is also a social aspect to overt sexualization. For example, not a lot of people complain about "sexy time" in the Witcher 3, because they view it as mature and romantic or something. Some people wanted nudity built into many Elder Scrolls games instead of having to downloading a mod, because why should characters have underwear bolted onto them? Examples of unabashed fanservice are Kill la Kill and Monogatari, very popular and acclaimed anime with fanservice, where anime watchers, who may not watch a lot of anime to begin with, either don't care about fanservice or attribute deeper meanings to it, so it seems less icky. My theory is, it has to be socially acceptable kinds of sexualization or at least have a bandwagon effect, lest it become negative.

Things that are not well respected or well understood, including anime in general, visual novels, and DOA Xtreme Beach Volleyball, tend to be what people dislike when it has overt sexualization. The gist is that these things is that they are perverted, because this kind of sexualization is not the norm and not something very common in our culture, other than teen comedy films which certainly are not respected. Dating fictional girls in visual novels also is incredibly weird, so it is not the norm. Yet I would say that some of these things are certainly more romantic and "mature" than other offerings in the porn and romcom department.

Onto AAA games that are popular but have sexualization, I believe RPG or Sci-fi fantasy babes are not acceptable in a sense, because they are derived from geek culture, which does not always mesh well with the general audience. It's true, we can have less of this and more realistic designs, and we should in my opinion. However, some people really don't like the idea of ogling 3D fictional women, because it's not the norm. Other than that, I don't really have much else to say.

 

[wulf3n]

but I'm well past the years in which I enjoy being pandered to in such a fashion.

I don't understand why people equate sexual pandering to age? Maybe others just have a relatively uptight social circle but If my experiences are anything to go by it's your +40s that seem to be the most into sexual pandering.

I'd just like to see the industry do a little growing up,

The existence of immaturity does not effect an industries maturity.

or at least have some more "mature" offerings available (for lack of a better word. Sophisticated? More high brow? I don't know how to phrase that, I'm sure you know what I mean).

You get out what you put in. I find there's plenty of complex and sophisticated issues explored in video games, most people just aren't willing to look too deep into video games. Example: Everyone praised SpecOps: The line for it's introspective look at the players actions in video games, but MGS1 already did that 14 years earlier. The only difference between them is one paints itself as gritty and mature and the other camp.

 

[JamesStone]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG. How is this a different concept to grasp? Nowhere in the dictionary does it say ANYTHING about an opinion being by definition impossible to attribute a True/False value.


Here's a demonstration:

"I believe the Earth is flat"

By analysing the data available to us since Phoenician's time, we can conclude that the Earth is in fact spherical/elipsed. As such, the opinion is wrong.


What IS INDEED TRUE is that most opinions are based around more than a singular fact, and analysing the various conjectures and facts that allow a person to create an opinion about a complex topic is a very hard task, which makes it a fool's erand to immediately dismiss the opinion as wrong, or immediately laund it as right. It is, however, possible to attribute truthfulness or its abscence to any opinion, as long as the data behind it can be analyzed.


Another demonstration:

"I believe God exists" - Analyzing the data behind this opinion allows one to reach little conclusion about the veracity of the facts supporting it, so we cannot attribute an inherit right/wrong value.

"Gamergate are nothing but thugs" - By mere observation one can conclude this statement is wrong, and so are the facts that support it. As such, the OPINION is wrong.

Oh, I get how this works.

"I think we should have stricter gun control because nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway."

I shall start using this argument against people who want greater gun control since the statement "nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway" is factually wrong which makes the opinion "I think we should have stricter gun control" wrong as well.

Does this sound right?

Oh, and "I believe the Earth is flat" is not an opinion. It's a (wrong) factual statement nestled in a sentence to make it sound like an opinion.

Yeah yeah, we reached the point where you don't even care about what I wrote (if you had the ever-so-slight bother of actually reading the things you are replying, you'd notice the "I believe God exists" argument, which is in the same class as the example you provided as some kind of misguided counterargument that rests almost entirely on strawmanning my own).

Also, by the synonim of the link you oh-so-helpfully provided, you see that "I believe the Earth is flat" falls within the category of "opinion", but of course that doesn't fit within your fairy-land version of reality, so you exclude it. Real classy.


It also says a lot about your maturity to either think that your example in any way serves as a counterargument for mine OR that such a complex statement (again, as I described in my post above that you disrespectfully ignored in is near-integrity) could be simplified by analyzing and strawmanning one part of the argument. You also only addressed half of the sentence and even that was half-assed, so I am confused as to what you think that would prove.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I don't understand why people equate sexual pandering to age? Maybe others just have a relatively uptight social circle but If my experiences are anything to go by it's your +40s that seem to be the most into sexual pandering.

I dunno dude, it's just my personal experience. I would've been keener on it when I was a teen.

The existence of immaturity does not effect an industries maturity.

No, but there's almost a complete void of "mature" offerings in this particular realm, and a great panoply of jiggly titty-fests.

You get out what you put in. I find there's plenty of complex and sophisticated issues explored in video games, most people just aren't willing to look too deep into video games.

Of course there are. And I'd be the first to argue this. And I'd also attribute a lot of that TO the flack the industry has taken over the last decade for infantile storytelling and characterization. That shit has improved by leaps and bounds, although we've still a ways to go.

But sexually? Games still do not handle "sex" well. At all. The pinnacle of achievement thus far is awkwardly animated sex sequences that manage to be mildly embarrassing instead of completely off-putting. I recognize there are uncanny valley issues at work, but even on the simple front of romantic relationships the offerings have been pretty thin on the ground. So people pointing to DOAX and saying "If you don't like this you don't want sex in games you puritan!" is a bit exhausting. I'd love to see some sex in games, but it'd be nice to have more in the buffet than the one pot of grape jello.

 

[JamesStone]

You get out what you put in. I find there's plenty of complex and sophisticated issues explored in video games, most people just aren't willing to look too deep into video games. Example: Everyone praised SpecOps: The line for it's introspective look at the players actions in video games, but MGS1 already did that 14 years earlier. The only difference between them is one paints itself as gritty and mature and the other camp.

But people also praise MGS1. Praising one doesn't mean taking praise away from the other. It's a new look at the same topic done just as well. What's the problem with that?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG. How is this a different concept to grasp? Nowhere in the dictionary does it say ANYTHING about an opinion being by definition impossible to attribute a True/False value.


Here's a demonstration:

"I believe the Earth is flat"

By analysing the data available to us since Phoenician's time, we can conclude that the Earth is in fact spherical/elipsed. As such, the opinion is wrong.


What IS INDEED TRUE is that most opinions are based around more than a singular fact, and analysing the various conjectures and facts that allow a person to create an opinion about a complex topic is a very hard task, which makes it a fool's erand to immediately dismiss the opinion as wrong, or immediately laund it as right. It is, however, possible to attribute truthfulness or its abscence to any opinion, as long as the data behind it can be analyzed.


Another demonstration:

"I believe God exists" - Analyzing the data behind this opinion allows one to reach little conclusion about the veracity of the facts supporting it, so we cannot attribute an inherit right/wrong value.

"Gamergate are nothing but thugs" - By mere observation one can conclude this statement is wrong, and so are the facts that support it. As such, the OPINION is wrong.

Oh, I get how this works.

"I think we should have stricter gun control because nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway."

I shall start using this argument against people who want greater gun control since the statement "nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway" is factually wrong which makes the opinion "I think we should have stricter gun control" wrong as well.

Does this sound right?

Oh, and "I believe the Earth is flat" is not an opinion. It's a (wrong) factual statement nestled in a sentence to make it sound like an opinion.

Dismissiveness is a sign that you don't have an answer anymore.

Yeah yeah, we reached the point where you don't even care about what I wrote (if you had the ever-so-slight bother of actually reading the things you are replying, you'd notice the "I believe God exists" argument, which is in the same class as the example you provided as some kind of misguided counterargument that rests almost entirely on strawmanning my own).

Actually the God statement is interesting, it's what's called an unfalsifiable statement. These are similar but different from opinions. It is a positive statement that could in theory be proven right or wrong, but there's no way to actually do so. But it is not an opinion.

Also, by the synonim of the link you oh-so-helpfully provided, you see that "I believe the Earth is flat" falls within the category of "opinion", but of course that doesn't fit within your fairy-land version of reality, so you exclude it. Real classy.

How so? Appending "I believe" to a statement doesn't magically make it an opinion.

It also says a lot about your maturity to either think that your example in any way serves as a counterargument for mine OR that such a complex statement (again, as I described in my post above that you disrespectfully ignored in is near-integrity) could be simplified by analyzing and strawmanning one part of the argument. You also only addressed half of the sentence and even that was half-assed, so I am confused as to what you think that would prove.

You said

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG.

Now, I gave (unlike you) an actual opinion that was supported by an (incorrect) actual factual statement. If this is not the method to determine whether an opinion is right or wrong, then what is?

 

[wulf3n]

I dunno dude, it's just my personal experience. I would've been keener on it when I was a teen.

Maybe it's just a difference in culture/sub-culture. I live in a fairly boganish part of Australia so...

No, but there's almost a complete void of "mature" offerings in this particular realm, and a great panoply of jiggly titty-fests.

Maybe we're thinking of different things when we talk about maturity. I think of it as mainly complex themes, and I haven't found it too difficult to find games that explore them.

Of course there are. And I'd be the first to argue this. And I'd also attribute a lot of that TO the flack the industry has taken over the last decade for infantile storytelling and characterization. That shit has improved by leaps and bounds, although we've still a ways to go.

I've found that even games with superficially infantile storytelling and characterization can actually be quite deep, if you're willing to put in the time. Not all of course, but some.

But sexually? Games still do not handle "sex" well. At all. The pinnacle of achievement thus far is awkwardly animated sex sequences that manage to be mildly embarrassing instead of completely off-putting. I recognize there are uncanny valley issues at work, but even on the simple front of romantic relationships the offerings have been pretty thin on the ground. So people pointing to DOAX and saying "If you don't like this you don't want sex in games you puritan!" is a bit exhausting. I'd love to see some sex in games, but it'd be nice to have more in the buffet than the one pot of grape jello.

I'd argue that's a technical limitation more so than anything else. Not just with the uncanny valley thing, but also exploring relationships. With games where a relationship is a sub-plot (non-interactive) there's not much time to dedicate it without taking away from the game aspect. With games where a relationship is an integral part (re: bioware) the breadth of player choice, writing and voice acting to create an in-depth experience is too much.

Fan-Service on the other hand is easy.

But people also praise MGS1. Praising one doesn't mean taking praise away from the other. It's a new look at the same topic done just as well. What's the problem with that?

I wasn't so much saying that the praise for spec ops negates the praise for MGS1 just that even though they explore similar themes, both were praised for different reasons. When one thinks mature and complex game stories they don't necessarily think Metal Gear Solid.

I think what I'm getting at is that the existence of immaturity in a game shouldn't detract from the mature elements.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

With games where a relationship is an integral part (re: bioware) the breadth of player choice, writing and voice acting to create an in-depth experience is too much.

Fan-Service on the other hand is easy.

Well I think that goes to the heart of it, really. I'm not anti-sex, I'm just BORED of fan service. It's not servicing me any more, and it tends to be all that's on offer. I want complex, "made for adults" stories and themes in my games (not all of them, but a lot of them), and that can and probably should include sexuality. And it can be quite jarring to be experiencing a rich, well crafted story on all fronts, and then BOOM...lazy fan service out of left field.

I think we're slowly getting to the point where we're simulating more genuine-feeling human interactions in games, but there still some hurdles to clear.

 

[JamesStone]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG. How is this a different concept to grasp? Nowhere in the dictionary does it say ANYTHING about an opinion being by definition impossible to attribute a True/False value.


Here's a demonstration:

"I believe the Earth is flat"

By analysing the data available to us since Phoenician's time, we can conclude that the Earth is in fact spherical/elipsed. As such, the opinion is wrong.


What IS INDEED TRUE is that most opinions are based around more than a singular fact, and analysing the various conjectures and facts that allow a person to create an opinion about a complex topic is a very hard task, which makes it a fool's erand to immediately dismiss the opinion as wrong, or immediately laund it as right. It is, however, possible to attribute truthfulness or its abscence to any opinion, as long as the data behind it can be analyzed.


Another demonstration:

"I believe God exists" - Analyzing the data behind this opinion allows one to reach little conclusion about the veracity of the facts supporting it, so we cannot attribute an inherit right/wrong value.

"Gamergate are nothing but thugs" - By mere observation one can conclude this statement is wrong, and so are the facts that support it. As such, the OPINION is wrong.

Oh, I get how this works.

"I think we should have stricter gun control because nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway."

I shall start using this argument against people who want greater gun control since the statement "nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway" is factually wrong which makes the opinion "I think we should have stricter gun control" wrong as well.

Does this sound right?

Oh, and "I believe the Earth is flat" is not an opinion. It's a (wrong) factual statement nestled in a sentence to make it sound like an opinion.

Dismissiveness is a sign that you don't have an answer anymore.

Yeah yeah, we reached the point where you don't even care about what I wrote (if you had the ever-so-slight bother of actually reading the things you are replying, you'd notice the "I believe God exists" argument, which is in the same class as the example you provided as some kind of misguided counterargument that rests almost entirely on strawmanning my own).

Actually the God statement is interesting, it's what's called an unfalsifiable statement. These are similar but different from opinions. It is a positive statement that could in theory be proven right or wrong, but there's no way to actually do so. But it is not an opinion.

Also, by the synonim of the link you oh-so-helpfully provided, you see that "I believe the Earth is flat" falls within the category of "opinion", but of course that doesn't fit within your fairy-land version of reality, so you exclude it. Real classy.

How so? Appending "I believe" to a statement doesn't magically make it an opinion.

It also says a lot about your maturity to either think that your example in any way serves as a counterargument for mine OR that such a complex statement (again, as I described in my post above that you disrespectfully ignored in is near-integrity) could be simplified by analyzing and strawmanning one part of the argument. You also only addressed half of the sentence and even that was half-assed, so I am confused as to what you think that would prove.

You said

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG.

Now, I gave (unlike you) an actual opinion that was supported by an (incorrect) actual factual statement. If this is not the method to determine whether an opinion is right or wrong, then what is?

Yes, indeed, dismissal is a sign that you win and nothing else, and it means your arguments are so great I have nothing to contradict them with. Yuppy. Take home the gold medal, sport, you made it.

You keep throwing away the same incorrect statements and subvert anything anyone tries to tell you to fit your own pretty strawman that you can argue with. Fine, go argue with the strawman, go argue with the dictionary, go argue with whomever. I'm tired of this pointless drivel, and I'm tired of your senseless and pointless arguments.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG. How is this a different concept to grasp? Nowhere in the dictionary does it say ANYTHING about an opinion being by definition impossible to attribute a True/False value.


Here's a demonstration:

"I believe the Earth is flat"

By analysing the data available to us since Phoenician's time, we can conclude that the Earth is in fact spherical/elipsed. As such, the opinion is wrong.


What IS INDEED TRUE is that most opinions are based around more than a singular fact, and analysing the various conjectures and facts that allow a person to create an opinion about a complex topic is a very hard task, which makes it a fool's erand to immediately dismiss the opinion as wrong, or immediately laund it as right. It is, however, possible to attribute truthfulness or its abscence to any opinion, as long as the data behind it can be analyzed.


Another demonstration:

"I believe God exists" - Analyzing the data behind this opinion allows one to reach little conclusion about the veracity of the facts supporting it, so we cannot attribute an inherit right/wrong value.

"Gamergate are nothing but thugs" - By mere observation one can conclude this statement is wrong, and so are the facts that support it. As such, the OPINION is wrong.

Oh, I get how this works.

"I think we should have stricter gun control because nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway."

I shall start using this argument against people who want greater gun control since the statement "nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway" is factually wrong which makes the opinion "I think we should have stricter gun control" wrong as well.

Does this sound right?

Oh, and "I believe the Earth is flat" is not an opinion. It's a (wrong) factual statement nestled in a sentence to make it sound like an opinion.

Dismissiveness is a sign that you don't have an answer anymore.

Yeah yeah, we reached the point where you don't even care about what I wrote (if you had the ever-so-slight bother of actually reading the things you are replying, you'd notice the "I believe God exists" argument, which is in the same class as the example you provided as some kind of misguided counterargument that rests almost entirely on strawmanning my own).

Actually the God statement is interesting, it's what's called an unfalsifiable statement. These are similar but different from opinions. It is a positive statement that could in theory be proven right or wrong, but there's no way to actually do so. But it is not an opinion.

Also, by the synonim of the link you oh-so-helpfully provided, you see that "I believe the Earth is flat" falls within the category of "opinion", but of course that doesn't fit within your fairy-land version of reality, so you exclude it. Real classy.

How so? Appending "I believe" to a statement doesn't magically make it an opinion.

It also says a lot about your maturity to either think that your example in any way serves as a counterargument for mine OR that such a complex statement (again, as I described in my post above that you disrespectfully ignored in is near-integrity) could be simplified by analyzing and strawmanning one part of the argument. You also only addressed half of the sentence and even that was half-assed, so I am confused as to what you think that would prove.

You said

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG.

Now, I gave (unlike you) an actual opinion that was supported by an (incorrect) actual factual statement. If this is not the method to determine whether an opinion is right or wrong, then what is?

Yes, indeed, dismissal is a sign that you win and nothing else, and it means your arguments are so great I have nothing to contradict them with. Yuppy. Take home the gold medal, sport, you made it.

You keep throwing away the same incorrect statements and subvert anything anyone tries to tell you to fit your own pretty strawman that you can argue with. Fine, go argue with the strawman, go argue with the dictionary, go argue with whomever. I'm tired of this pointless drivel, and I'm tired of your senseless and pointless arguments.

Well I'll be here if you want to answer questions instead of throwing your hands up when someone challenges you on the things you said.

 

[Batou667]

I disagree with the description of DOAX as "basically porn". Not because I'm some reactionary who can't handle criticism, but because it's a poor description if not outright untrue. It's really not very erotic - or at least the original wasn't, and that's the only game in the spin-off series I played. There's no sex. There's no nudity - a lot of skin on display, but no nudity, and for all that the girls are more like airbrushed mannequins than living, breathing, sexual beings. It's visually aesthetically pleasing but actually quite difficult to find genuinely titillating - look, I was a teenager, I was lonely, trust me, I tried. I quickly gave up attempting to use DOAX as spank material - firstly it's redundant when you consider the complete ease with which you can access real porn, and secondly, if you take more than a cursory glance it becomes evident that it's not the intention of the game anyway.

I also disagree with the appraisal of DOAX being a "lads" game. It's not. FIFA is a lad's game. CoD is. DOAX is the type of game you strenuously deny owning in front of your mates.

So what's the appeal? It's character-driven, fanservice, and (although I only skimmed this thread) I think somebody described it as a virtual dollhouse and I think that's quite fitting. It's a dress-up game for males. It's The Sims for males. There's something quite pleasant about putting together a nicely coordinated outfit for your character, indeed the gameplay mostly revolves around the dress-up and outfit unlocking metagame. Playing volleyball is almost a mini-game or grinding in comparison. And personally, that's the first time I'd encountered a game that rewarded me for doing that; choosing a character, building her wardrobe, developing her relationship with other characters, and so on.

So, that's why the sentiment of "hurr hurr, it's porn" irks me. It's not incorrect, it's an oversimplification; and arguably that's worse.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

I think a big reason why so many people want ecchi/titillating/borderline porn games comes down to one single word; Control.

Control is what makes video games so much more engrossing then film or pictures and it's what fuels the conservatives that try to ban games based or violence or sex, because you are the one in control of what happens.

You can't control the camera in porno vids, you can't make the actors get into exact positions and read your mind. Select your girl off the rack and pan around and get those titties giggling, ass bobbing, wearing THAT bikini and talking like Gilbert Gottfreid! Real people have their own tastes and more importantly judgments, but a bunch of polygons wont judge me, is the underlying thought process I'd imagine, because society shames people for their sexual tastes.

What's more important though is why Japan's anime porn industry is mostly made up of underaged sisters being raped, or a mix of those three. Am I weird with my love of legal lesbians with big gozongas having consensual fun times... speaking like Gilbert Gottfreid?

 

[9tailedflame]

I think a big reason why so many people want Ecchi/titillating/borderline porn games comes down to one single word; Control.

You cant control the camera in porno vids, you can't make the actors get into exact positions and read your mind. Select your cow off the rack and pan around and get those titties giggle, ass bobbing, wearing THAT bikini and talking like Gilbert Gottfreid! Real people have their own tastes and more importantly judgments, but a buncha polygons wont judge me, is the central thought process I'd imagine.

What's more important though is why Japan's anime porn industry is mostly made up of underaged sisters being raped, or a mix of those three. Am I weird with my love of legal lesbians with big gozongas having consensual fun times... speaking like Gilbert Gottfreid?

Now i'm imagining a porn vid where lesbians talk sexy to each other with the voice of Gilbert Gottfreid, thanks for that.

 

[Paragon Fury]

I...was thinking of making another post, but you guys seemed to have turned my thread into a free-for-all here.

 

[IceForce]

I...was thinking of making another post, but you guys seemed to have turned my thread into a free-for-all here.

Well, you could start by explaining this:

sexy time isn't happening for me unless I'm the last man standing,

What makes you say this? (Bearing in mind that misanthropy and self-pity are usually huge turn-offs where women are concerned, which effectively turns the above attitude into a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.)

 

[runic knight]

I...was thinking of making another post, but you guys seemed to have turned my thread into a free-for-all here.

I thought the thread was a simple counter-point to an often regurgitated "just watch porn" excuse for people bashing on a game that titillates, done with a more entertaining tone. That some used it as excuse to attack your character for daring to have different tastes is sadly not unexpected, though I had seen some others posting about the topic with regard to differences between sex and titillation or even extrapolating the topic to talk about differences between games and video and how the differences there could factor in.

It is a good topic, shame that it devolved the way it did.

 

[KissingSunlight]

Let's be honest. Anyone who makes the argument "Why don't you watch porn?" is most likely a prude.

To get some context, I embedded a video from a DOA Volleyball game.
If this is porn, then real life beach volleyball must be a live sex show. I've tried to take sexism in videogame argument seriously. I stopped. Their argument simply boils down to: OMG!!! That videogame character has boobs!

We need to stop taking these people seriously. They are no different from the conservative prudes who burned books and try to ban rap and rock music.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Some things of note Guppy. For one, I've found that the people clamoring for maturity tend to be some of the most immature people. Anyone who is actually mature generally doesn't try and bring attention to it.

For another, what exactly do you mean by mature, and what makes you thing the gaming industry hasn't reached that point? Cause if the existance of mindless boobathons make you think the industry isn't mature, then there's pretty much no media that is.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Some things of note Guppy. For one, I've found that the people clamoring for maturity tend to be some of the most immature people. Anyone who is actually mature generally doesn't try and bring attention to it.

For another, what exactly do you mean by mature, and what makes you thing the gaming industry hasn't reached that point? Cause if the existance of mindless boobathons make you think the industry isn't mature, then there's pretty much no media that is.

Heh. So...okay. If you think anything I said constitutes "clamoring", and if pleases you to believe I'm immature, then have it. Fill yer boots. I appreciate the random drive by insult, I guess?