Just trying to save the world
- Thread starter Aramax
- Start date
Pointing out the obvious flaws, as has been done since the start of the thread by many others, is hardly mere pessimism. Don't just look for "me too" answers.Aramax said:
Oh yeah, I remember reading about this crap, one problem, if we got everything we wanted (especially here in America) who the in the hell would work? not fat-ass America. Considering the robot thing, who would build them? You see, currency is what keeps people going, want to see the next big concert? better start working your ass off skippy, its just so many lazy people would take advantage of this type of economy
Most of my vitriol came from reading your replies to others, and a lot of their criticism felt valid. If it's pessimism about the realities of human nature, then at least acknowledge that ideas about human nature emerge from observation of humans in their natural state (especially when they think they can get away with things).Aramax said:
Replacing one system of power and resource distribution with another doesn't imply that all the world's problems will be solved. The sort of idealistic thinking you're advocating is too general, and insists too much that mutual good will and cooperation would solve all problems. Each problem has to be approached on its own terms. And while everybody wishes for peace and prosperity, they always want it on their own terms.
If you're going to respond to criticism you find pessimistic with mockery and condescension, then that's not a ringing endorsement for the idea that the cynical notions of human nature can be transcended by high ideals.
Without some sort of incentive, would anyone have ever come up with medical treatments that are keeping people alive today? Without incentive in the future, will anyone come up with treatments that may eliminate many chronic diseases? This is where money comes into the equation. The only reason we have so many different treatment options for things like Alzheimers and Depression and Diabetes is because there is money to be made at it. If everyone gets the same sort of resources no matter what they do, why spend so much time on developing new medications?
This is a good point. And even in a moneyless, barterless system where ideals hold, the lack of human sense of competition or the struggle to Gain Some Upper Hand (money-wise) would make innovation, and motivation, difficult. If all competition was for social gains, such as recognition for being honorable, virtuous, or a credit to the community then there would be a system of "social barter" where prestige and face could well take the place of money. (After all, it would not be long before people with more social credit could start insisting that they deserve more resources than those who don't contribute as much as they.)VicMcSeven said:
And these social barter systems are just as cutthroat and oppressive as money or commodity-based barter. East Asia's systems of social credit and influence, with "virtue" and other good-sounding words attached to the recipients of social credit, are terribly oppressive.
But that's just another possible route this utopian ideal could end up.
Y'know I thought about something else, if we do get the robot technology and somehow this idea worked out, it would be HELL. think about this (just throwin this out there) if a newborn comes into this type of world, whats to teach him the value of hard work? and if people got everything they wanted, wouldn't we all be fat, lazy, ungrateful assholes who just wanted more and more of things like pizza? Back to the newborn thing, if we were all this lazy that would be a TERRIBLE influence on a young mind. Imagine your world where everything was great, no wars, robots doing everything, then we get to a town and see a bunch a fat dicks just wanting food. (one more thing, in the first post you said something about bridges collapsing, how the hell would free food fix that?)
Amusingly, people today who don't understand the value of hard work (or the value of a dollar, for starters) and feel entitled to living out their selfish fantasies might also have a lot to do with the world's economic problems as they stand. Ironic, considering that the idea was posited as a solution to this sort of crisis.skitzo van said:
After all, thousands of people buying something they could not afford and going into debt, throwing the entire world economy into the crapper in the process, has a lot to do with the sort of decadence that comes with people insisting that they must have something without actually deserving it or, heavens forbid, affording.
While this utopia idea covers the "Affording" bit, it doesn't address the decadent sense of entitlement and selfishness that these unwise and irresponsible people possess--and they have MUCH better lives than their counterparts in undeveloped countries, to the point where other people dream of having their lives as some sort of utopia, too.
Internet is serious business. Sorry for all my cynical response but everytime I start a discussion I get the feeling i'm going to argue with a bunch of kids who have nothing better to do then to troll around all day on discussion where they found some material that annoy and angers the original poster. In this case it's pessimism and a bipolar view of everything that leads people to identify new systems with old system because it's such a great way to discredit political ideologists.Dorian Cornelius Jasper said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcEuhi7KKHA
You can't observe humans in their natural state because of the capitalism system that is in place. It's far from being a natural state and it's clearly changing everyone from the inside out. I would go as far as to call this symptom caused by capitalism the human rage.
I'm tracing a line. Stay on your side if you love it so much.
PS: I clearly pointed out exactly how a Resource-Based Economy would actually solve MOST ( Not all ) of the world's problems. Learn to read.
ha, how very nice that you can just completely absolve yourself by claiming you've been on the high road from the start. I can respond to your topic with pessimism because I've taken the time to read up on the theory you're spouting (a topic I'm not entirely sure you fully understand yourself). And I'm also sorry, but there is no "fact" to keep to. There is an economic theory you're trying to tout as the answer to all mankind's problems, something of which I take great issue with. You're like a religious missionary who talks down to the people he's trying to convert. And you have the nerve to talk to me of eloquence. A wide vocabulary does not an intellectual make.Aramax said:
As much as I would love to see a resource based economy, its a far away prospect. People are too used to the idea of money and needing to give something to get something, too scared at the thought of money, which theyve worked for their whole lives, becoming what it actually is, a piece of paper that someone drew some pictures on and gave it a value. Too few people have too much power and dont want to lose it, the kind of people who would rather make a buck than save a life, even though it would benefit every single person on this planet.
The only thing more outdated than money is religion.
The only thing more outdated than money is religion.
A couple of questions for the OP,
1) Given the vast amount of individuals with differing tastes, desiring a vast amount of different products, central economic planning has been notoriously poor at anticipating demand, often misallocating resources i.e. shortages/surpluses. How does a resource-based economy overcome this problem?
2)You say human nature is not inherent. By this I assume you mean that humans are not inherently rationally self-interested and that human nature is determined by the society in which we live (presently capitalist). What evidence can be presented that this is the case?
1) Given the vast amount of individuals with differing tastes, desiring a vast amount of different products, central economic planning has been notoriously poor at anticipating demand, often misallocating resources i.e. shortages/surpluses. How does a resource-based economy overcome this problem?
2)You say human nature is not inherent. By this I assume you mean that humans are not inherently rationally self-interested and that human nature is determined by the society in which we live (presently capitalist). What evidence can be presented that this is the case?
The observations on human nature have existed long before the system of capitalism ever has. Dare I say before money or even barter.Aramax said:
(Capitalism has only existed for several centuries. Humanity's problems go far deeper than that.)
And attempting to wave away a remark on your overly idealistic goals by saying "most" and not "all," and telling me to "learn to read," not only misses the point of the complaint (overly idealistic estimation of the effect one change can have) but is also a terribly condescending way to respond to a fair criticism.
Again, a petty response illustrating the darker side of human nature.
You gave vague, shallow reasons why it would work, but utterly refused to go any further then skin deep. You see the poor man and think "how can i fix that".Aramax said:
You need to see every one, the poor man, the working man, the rich man, the man in control and the man who wants to be in control and think "what could possible help one without harming the others." The way i see your veiw is very communistic and just wrong. We are decades away from creating artificial intelligence that will make "OMGJUSTUSEROBOTLOLOLOL" an option.
It kind of remind me this story in the news last week; A young mother who was found dead in her car 4 months after she was reported missing. The news said that people were passing by all this time but they didn't wanted to get involved so they just never reported the crime.WeedWorm said:
Talk about leading by example.
http://www.montrealgazette.com/entertainment/Woman+found+dead+Henri/1435078/story.html
Eventually, everyone get bored doing nothing and the desire to do something with their lives just hit them like a brick to the face. Has this ever happened to you?nova18 said:
1) If you can name me 100 totally different products ( Not just the same product of a different type, brand, build or company ) that are still currently used today. I will declare you a god. You don't even how much useless repetitive useless crap you got lying in your apartment. Things that you could easily live without because you already got a better version of it somewhere else in a drawer.munkyforce said:
2) When I say human nature is not inherent I mean that human nature is just a theory and I say this because of a single fact "We all act differently depending on the perception of our surroundings." therefore, if our surroundings are more peaceful and less stressful humanity will get better. This is what I believe.
When you say that human nature is inherent it means that we can't fight who we are that we can't really decide to do something unless we're being trained to do so, like some sort of laboratory rat, by society. I hope you understand why I think that people who think that human nature is inherent are the closest thing to zombie... people who are infected with the human rage.
Seriously.
I'm running my presidential campaign in 4 years. Be sure to vote for me
Because when you vote Zeke, you vote Awsome.
And by awsome I mean cannibalistic walking corpses that shamble the towns in search of warm, flesh to feast upon only to be met by a shotgun shell to the face...
I'm running my presidential campaign in 4 years. Be sure to vote for me
Because when you vote Zeke, you vote Awsome.
And by awsome I mean cannibalistic walking corpses that shamble the towns in search of warm, flesh to feast upon only to be met by a shotgun shell to the face...
No.
Just no.
We will never reach a post-scarcity society if we attempt to go down roads like this.
the escapist is so full of little 14-22 year old facist wannabes who think government intervention and control will solve all the world's problems... as long as they get to design the government that is intervening and controlling.
retarded
Just no.
We will never reach a post-scarcity society if we attempt to go down roads like this.
the escapist is so full of little 14-22 year old facist wannabes who think government intervention and control will solve all the world's problems... as long as they get to design the government that is intervening and controlling.
retarded