Keep Calm and Feel Emotions

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
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Feb 9, 2008
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A Barrel In the Marketplace
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T said:
Fahrenheit was roughly one part brilliance to two parts nonsense
Wait, what are you using to measure that? I counted one part brilliance to ninety-nine parts nonsense.
Strangely enough, that's also the best way to describe gravity's rainbow. Though GR also involves all the scenes being in random order to boot.

There's the feeling in both that there's something really interesting going on. Too bad you can't figure out what it is.
 

Sheo_Dagana

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Aug 12, 2009
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Yep... this game is really silly. It's packed full of emotions all right - even though most of it is limited to crying and frustration - but there is nothing to the characters. You can throw all the emotion you want at me, but if I don't give a damn about the characters all that 'emotion' is just noise. Jodie has absolutely no personality outside of being an angry, sobbing mess, and the irony of this is that the entire game is a story about this one character. A wide miss.

The other characters weren't much to look at either. Dawkins was far less interesting than he could have been, Cole was equally boring, and the homeless were as stereotypical as they come. Ryan is probably the character that gets the most (read: any) development, which really isn't saying much.

I don't think that this game is terrible, aside from it's clunky controls and being visually buggy, I just feel like Quantic Dream completely missed the point behind the story that they themselves were trying to make.

I'll say this; the Navajo section was actually pretty cool to me. I would have liked the game a whole lot better if there had been more sections like that one.
 

Movitz

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Jan 30, 2013
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Just wanna check one thing: is it true you can't lose in Beyond? If that's true.. I mean what's even the point of playing? No matter what you do, you can't lose, and judging from the walkthrough Two best friends are doing, none of the choises you make seem to matter.
 

Raggedstar

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Jul 5, 2011
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Movitz said:
Just wanna check one thing: is it true you can't lose in Beyond? If that's true.. I mean what's even the point of playing? No matter what you do, you can't lose, and judging from the walkthrough Two best friends are doing, none of the choises you make seem to matter.
Pretty much. Sometimes it changes some of the events (for example there's one part where Jodie is chased by the police. If you fail some QTE, they catch you and you miss out on other content. But ya, Jodie escapes anyways) but nothing really serious. There are also some smaller "choices" you can make, but a lot of them are poorly projected and don't have clear consequences until MUCH later in the game. I'll list out a few ways.

(not that I'm defending the game, as I'm in agreement with many that it's emotionally unvaried, needlessly confusing tripe that takes itself far too seriously. Also I'm not that far in the TBFP LP but saw another one that's finished)

There's a point in the game where teenage Jodie escapes the lab to see some girls at a party (or something). The address was a very rapey dive-bar. If you stick around, the dudes will try to rape her and Jodie years later (as far as gameplay goes, maybe 5 more hours?) will have a panic attack if you choose to have sex with Ryan. In-game, you actually have a choice to LEAVE the bar, but a lot of people didn't know they even had the option to. In fact, I heard someone wanted to leave right away and they game encouraged the player to "stay a while and look around". So ya, the game boasts choice but it has a very clear idea what it wants you to do.

Sometimes characters can die if you fail QTE or actively don't care enough to initiate them, but they don't exactly trigger a whole lot (nothing like in Heavy Rain, where say Madison can distract the police if she's left alive. It basically only does minor changes in dialogue and cutscenes).

There are also 3 main routes in the ending, one where Jodie can die from player negligence to the QTE...but only THOSE QTE (and the game pretty much ends there, as she failed her mission and the world became engulfed by the Infra-world, roll credits after several minutes of monologue). Jodie can't die any other time in the game no matter how many times she's smacked, shot, etc. While it does keep the game moving, it does lead to a lot of complaints relating to agency. This is why people often got bored during the action scenes because it felt like Jodie was doing just fine without them and nothing was on the line for the most part.

(edited some stuff within the spoilers to clarify stuff)
 

Xan Krieger

Completely insane
Feb 11, 2009
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Didn't get the joke but I gotta say Erin looks really hot in that dress, I'd like to see more of her wearing that.
 

Boogie Knight

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Oct 17, 2011
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Moviebob talked about Battleship looking dated imitating previous dumb loud movies like Transformers in a post-Avengers world. I think we gave Heavy Rain a lot of slack because it was a first experience with Cage's style. Then we got TellTale's take on the The Walking Dead, with its artful tugging at the player's heartstrings to get out a variety of emotions... meanwhile David Cage shows no indication of growing as he keeps on with his monochrome sentiment of melancholy.

Jesus Christ, Shinji Ikari wasn't as perpetually depressed as David Cage's games.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Ruisu said:
Dislike is not the same as hate though.
For the intents and purposes of the "hate" David Cage gets, yes they are. Otherwise, we're shifting between terminologies and that just doesn't fly.

No, you don't need to be drawn or attracted to the subject to hate it. You're fixated or possibly even obsessed in your example, and both can have both positive and negative connotations and have nothing to do with hate in themselves. You're fixated on an argument which also happens to engender a negative emotional response. The latter part dictates "hate," not the former. "Hate" is a fairly casual term these days.

If you want to use this as your personal meaning, that's fine. But words have meaning in communication only if people are using the same or similar definitions. I mean, you can even go to the dictionary (not that you're likely to find one that meets your specific criteria as listed here), but dictionaries aren't always the best source for common word use. For example, it's only recently that dictionaries started to include the definition of "literal" that is so commonly used: figurative.

I mean, you're on the internet, where anyone who's even remotely critical is considered a "hater." You can say "no, that's not what it means," but that's the direction the word is taking. Pretending otherwise only devalues any discussion value here.
 

wAriot

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Jan 18, 2013
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Darth_Payn said:
That name sort of sounds familiar. What's she worked on that I would know?
She was a writer for Bioware, involved in Dragon Age and, if I'm not mistaken, Mass Effect. She recently left the company (not because of the harassing, as most think, but for personal reasons).

Most people is sure that she's responsible for the terrible writing those two games had at some points, and the cliched relationships you could have (specially the gay ones; she wrote several books with similar settings, all of them terrible).

AND she has also explicitly said that she doesn't like video games.
 

Movitz

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Jan 30, 2013
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Raggedstar said:
Movitz said:
Just wanna check one thing: is it true you can't lose in Beyond? If that's true.. I mean what's even the point of playing? No matter what you do, you can't lose, and judging from the walkthrough Two best friends are doing, none of the choises you make seem to matter.
Pretty much. Sometimes it changes some of the events (for example there's one part where Jodie is chased by the police. If you fail some QTE, they catch you and you miss out on other content. But ya, Jodie escapes anyways) but nothing really serious. There are also some smaller "choices" you can make, but a lot of them are poorly projected and don't have clear consequences until MUCH later in the game. I'll list out a few ways.

(not that I'm defending the game, as I'm in agreement with many that it's emotionally unvaried, needlessly confusing tripe that takes itself far too seriously. Also I'm not that far in the TBFP LP but saw another one that's finished)

There's a point in the game where teenage Jodie escapes the lab to see some girls at a party (or something). The address was a very rapey dive-bar. If you stick around, the dudes will try to rape her and Jodie years later (as far as gameplay goes, maybe 5 more hours?) will have a panic attack if you choose to have sex with Ryan. In-game, you actually have a choice to LEAVE the bar, but a lot of people didn't know they even had the option to. In fact, I heard someone wanted to leave right away and they game encouraged the player to "stay a while and look around". So ya, the game boasts choice but it has a very clear idea what it wants you to do.

Sometimes characters can die if you fail QTE or actively don't care enough to initiate them, but they don't exactly trigger a whole lot (nothing like in Heavy Rain, where say Madison can distract the police if she's left alive. It basically only does minor changes in dialogue and cutscenes).

There are also 3 main routes in the ending, one where Jodie can die from player negligence to the QTE...but only THOSE QTE (and the game pretty much ends there, as she failed her mission and the world became engulfed by the Infra-world, roll credits after several minutes of monologue). Jodie can't die any other time in the game no matter how many times she's smacked, shot, etc. While it does keep the game moving, it does lead to a lot of complaints relating to agency. This is why people often got bored during the action scenes because it felt like Jodie was doing just fine without them and nothing was on the line for the most part.

(edited some stuff within the spoilers to clarify stuff)
Thanks, mate. So yeah, pretty pointless game, all in all.
 

TheNaut131

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Jul 6, 2011
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You know, there are a lot of ways to make a game. There are a number of different ways to entertain people through an interactive experience. Maybe even create a whole new style gameplay or even just take an older style of gameplay and add some polish to an older system. Or maybe just create a fun, interesting experience that can hold its own in this world.

Beyond Two Souls is not one of those games.

And I'm actually starting to get pissed at those who say it is.

[spoiler:eek:kay this got longer than I thought it would 'cause apparently I got a lot of issues with this game. spoilers I guess.]Because the entire basis of Beyond Two Soul's gameplay are two things: a lie and busy work. First, you have no choice. Get that lie out of your head, there is no choice. I know a lot of can't do choices well, and karma systems aren't too great sometimes, but Beyond Two Soul's way of doing things is essentially the epitome of those two things. It's more like an anti-freewill device. You try and go down one path and the game does everything in it's power to persuade you onto the path it wants (overbearingly lovey stuff with Ryan, super boring sections so you want to smash things as Aiden) or it just doesn't matter. Choke Jodie's dad ,don't choke Jodie's dad who cares? They're not even an option in the ending.

Oh yes different things can happen, some characters can die, you can save a couple too...or you can let them die. But first off, that raises the question of why wouldn't you? I mean, you can't die during the game, so what's their to fear by trying to save people? Like Cole during the ending or those two homeless guys in the fire? And apparently you can save Paul, the father, during the Navajo section...but how the hell is anyone supposed to infer that on the first play through? I mean, we hear Jodie say for say he's alive, which actually makes you think he's going to be okay. Why would I worry about Paul when there's a giant Native American Demon outside?

Then you've got Aiden's powers and just how inconsistent or just random they can be. The max distance Aiden can be from Jodie is constantly changing, we don't get an explanation as to why Aiden can only do certain things to certain people, in the Chinese military base section Aiden can apparently posses a person a second time but throughout the rest of the game he's only done it once, and frankly his powers weren't utilized that well or often like Aiden's apparent force field ability. (why doesn't she use that during the African section? WHO KNOWS?) Plus, we know he can make levitate objects and that he can do things like the Poltergeist chair stacking trick...so why does he only break things or just shake crap or throw it when we play as him? Cause it's honestly really boring after awhile.

Speaking of boring, you have Jodie's...everything. The busywork aspect of the game. The dinner scene is the most blatant one in my opinion cause *pick up trash, pick up CD's, oh Aiden you kookie lil sweet heart, fix chairs* See what I mean? You're just doing things for no reason. You're just forced into this position of boredom and fiddling looking for something to do with no actual sense of purpose for most of the game. And then you get control of Aiden and you start fiddling with him now, breaking things, being a jerk, etc. But fiddling with Aiden is worse than fiddling with Jodie (when you can with him at all) because it's now a disappointing kind of boring. "This is it? That was everything in the room I could mess with. Back to Jodie so I can get more exposition." That's it. Just waiting for more exposition with very little mental challenge or genuine intrigue.

And that's just my problem with the "gameplay." let's talk about the story. Aside from being the literal combination of a dozen different genre cliches, they're just sorta...lackluster. In and out and reused a few times before the game is over. And yes the joke been made a thousand times, but this is essentially just an Ellen Paige demo reel. Punk Rock Ellen Paige, Hobo Ellen Paige, etc, etc you know where this is going. The Native American section is so eye-rollingly Hollywood slock typical, the Africa section is sorta hypocritical. Cause Jodie gets sorta nervous when she finally finds here target and has to hype herself up by saying stuff like "okay Jodie, you can do it, this guy is has killed a lot of people, he has to die, etc." but it seems after, you know, choking, shooting, killing everyone else whose gotten in your way. But hey, alright, I guess she had "no choice" in the other sections, fine, fine...

But then you have Ryan. Oh dear Ryan. Early on in the CIA training section, he acts as one of her instructors and essentially tells her what to do, acting as her boss/partner in another section. Later in the game, we see Jodie meeting Ryan. She's being forced to go off to the CIA, and Aiden nearly goes apeshit on him. After this scene we find out that apparently they're sorta kind of dating...why? How? When? We don't know! And frankly, I have no reason or any feelings to support this, aside from perhaps "Jodie's happiness." ...which even if you do support it, doesn't matter. If you somehow fail to get to the bar, Jodie never get assaulted and she has no fear of having sex with Nathan...aaaand why should I care? How does this help me during the game? Am I supposed to be happy that Jodie is fucking the person she was yelling literally one chapter ago? So you've been a good little ghost for nothing, had to sit through first date breaking-the-ice dialogue, and now watch them do the nasty. Yay. Look, their relationship does not make sense and honestly it's just sort of awkward. ...also I can't stand his face.

And then there's the number one thing that really got under my skin and I just can't stand: Nathan's death scene or more accurately, really lazily written suicide. So we find out the Nathan has created this device that's sorta keeping his dead wife and daughter tethered to this world, so he can see them. He has Jodi do her whole "speak to the dead" number and we find out that Nathan is hurting them by holding them here. Obviously this doesn't make him happy, so he goes a bit nuts, turns off the negation field, entities start spilling in, the Infraworld and our world will mix, blah blah typical climax end game movie junk, and we eventually find him near the condenser. A number of things can happen actually. Jodie can get shot, Aiden can actually choke Nathan out, Ryan saves Jodie and dies with Nathan (personal favorite) but Nathan's suicide makes me mad. Not cause he kills himself but cause of what happens after it: his family runs up and hugs him. Uh...what? Okay, I know you're ghost, but feel some sort of disappointment or fear of him. He essentially tortured you! Okay, fine whatever, maybe Nathan will feel some guilt...no, he's taking it pretty well. Really happy to have his family back. That's really shitty to be honest, but okay. fine. At least apologize to Jodie for-

"You're only one who can fix this Jodie. Do it for me."

What? Okay, no. He can't say that. Casue he's essentially saying "hey there Jodie oh buddy oh pal of mine. I know I sorta cause the Apocalypse and as far as I know, left you alone to fix it yourself, but hey you gotta clean this shit up! Do it for your old buddy Nathan, the guy who let the military try to put you in a coma and caused the end of days! Bye bye, I'm gonna have fun in the afterlife with my family who accepts even tho I caused all this, hurt them, and killed myself without so much as redeeming myself in the slightest. NATHAN OUT BITCHES"

I know that's a bit exaggerated...but that is the end of Nathan Dawkins. He kills himself, gets what he wants, and leaves Jodie to clean up his mess. And it's a load of bullshit and perhaps the worst death scene I have ever seen in my life.[/spoiler]

Honestly, Cage's style of game design has always been shoddy but at least felt...cohesive to me. I mean, in Indigo Prophecy, you hide a dead body, try to get out of a place without drawing attention to yourself knowing damn well someone will find said body, out run ghost bugs, investigate crime scenes, fight a hooded figure on a rooftop, etc. Quick time events and dialogue, alright with me. Heavy Rain actually worked a bit better in my opinion, cause you mostly investigated or you were playing the role of someone whose life had been shaken. From their humble beginnings as a father who brushes his teeth, watches his kids, etc to some guy forced to cut off his own finger to find his son. Or a woman having to put herself in awkward (tho perhaps poorly written) situations to achieve an overall goal, or a detective using a new piece of technology to try and catch a serial killer.

In Beyond Two Soul's, it's just a bit mess of concepts, cliches, underutilized or just random game mechanics, and busy work through constant fiddling and the search for something interesting, or new, or even FUN.