Word.Richardplex said:
Both of the "Stupid Shitty Kickstarter Documentaries" mentioned are transparently-clear attempts at manufacturing propaganda and shouldn't be considered as either objective nor as documentaries in their own right.
Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde
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Both of the "Stupid Shitty Kickstarter Documentaries" mentioned are transparently-clear attempts at manufacturing propaganda and shouldn't be considered as either objective nor as documentaries in their own right.
Richardplex said:
Hey dude, just a quick tip, try reading the article before defending youtube commenters.
Now then, are you insane? Do you seriously think that because you disagree with her position that people should be allowed to say this kind of stuff?
I still agree with what Buretsu said. Men in videogames suffer from stereotypes as much as women.Bertylicious said:
It's not like there are no adult women in videogames who are not overly sexualised though:
In TRON 2.0 there is Mercury, who frequently rescues a male protagonist who story-wise should be rather nerdy, but actually falls more into the broad-shouldered cookie-cutter area.
Half-Life 2 has Alyx.
In Portal, the main protagonist is a woman many players might not even actually see, except for a short time at the beginning.
In Beyond Good and Evil, the protagonist is a female reporter/investigator/rebel.
The Metroid series famously features Samus Aran.
MAss Effect (and most Bioware games) features strong female characters (possibly including the player).
I would rather be associated with these six examples than having the choice between broad-shouldered, perfectly chiseled meatheads, scientists who would never get a job in any real science lab, fearful nerdy/geeky characters and Gordon Freeman.
Actually, thinking about it, Gordon Freeman is OK as a representation for me.
I am all for feminism. However can we just stop having people point out "This is not a true representative of women. It is sexist." Instead tell us WHAT the actual representation that should be used and go from there.
Right now all that happens is like a rat in a box. You hit it when it goes for food, you hit when it tries to drink, you hit it when it moves. It gets to a point to decides that the best action to not be hut is to just sit in the corner and die. Or just ignore you, bite you and do its own thing.
Right now all that happens is like a rat in a box. You hit it when it goes for food, you hit when it tries to drink, you hit it when it moves. It gets to a point to decides that the best action to not be hut is to just sit in the corner and die. Or just ignore you, bite you and do its own thing.
I am chilled by the comments to be honest. I'm a female gamer and while I would not consider myself "called" to the feminist agenda (or at least the extreme bits of it, which have the loudest advocates though they may be a minority of the feminist crowd) I am well aware of the slant in the representation of my gender in my favorite entertainment medium.
This is where most males point out that they too are stereotyped. This is true and yet it is not the same type of stereotyping in most cases. Let me briefly explain what I mean there. Men are, by and large in video games, portrayed as either really masculine, tough, burly, physical, and good in combat or smart, clever, charming, suave, etc. These are positive stereotypes. They are still stereotypes, they can still be harmful and misrepresentative of the group, but they are positive attributes being exaggerated - and they are the type of attributes that are generally viewed as positive by males as well as females. This is like the stereotype that all Asians are good at math or all African Americans are particularly athletic. It isn't okay to generalize to that degree, but it isn't the same thing as negative stereotypes like Asian people are bad drivers or African American people talk through movies. Women, on the other hand, are stereotyped in games in ways that are not considered positive by females as well as males in general, the slant is clearly toward a physical ideal that is perceived to be valued by males (talking about giant breasts and skimpy outfits here).
I've not been happy about this issue, but I've not seen a need to be ardently proactive about it either, because I feel that as the industry gains more audience equality the problem will correct itself. It did used to be that most players were guys. It makes some sense that they would be catered to as the primary audience and the consideration for female players wouldn't be a high priority (being that they were the minority). As things have begun to even out though, there is a disturbing trend for a certain group of players who are males lashing out at any female player who wants to recognize her values in what she plays. As if we are unwelcome. As if we don't deserve to be part of the community and feel comfortable in it as much as anyone else. This is particularly painful for me as someone who has always been part of the community from the days when it was very much a boys club and thought things would naturally improve and that the improvement would be welcomed.
The thing is there to be studied and she wants to study it - I don't see the issue. This isn't a campaign to boycott games for being what they've been, it's a research project into what have they been, indeed, and where are they going. If we can't stand to be questioned about our history as a community we are not going to develop in a healthy direction. Maybe that is the crux of the problem though. There isn't a "game community" really. We aren't so much a real community as we are a group of people who enjoy a shared hobby and had in the past been forced to band together in defense of that hobby against scrutiny of a wider society. Now that issue is waning and our cohesion is waning with it perhaps. But I digress.
What shocks me is the comments and the hate. I often convince myself that such things are outlying elements of a few people who would be that way no matter where they were or what they were doing. The more this issue comes up though the more I see that I really may not even want to be part of this "community" if that is what the sentiment of it is. So much hatred over simply pointing out that things have been unequal and the outright denial of the possibility that anything about the video games in question could ever be unequal... it just staggers me.
This is where most males point out that they too are stereotyped. This is true and yet it is not the same type of stereotyping in most cases. Let me briefly explain what I mean there. Men are, by and large in video games, portrayed as either really masculine, tough, burly, physical, and good in combat or smart, clever, charming, suave, etc. These are positive stereotypes. They are still stereotypes, they can still be harmful and misrepresentative of the group, but they are positive attributes being exaggerated - and they are the type of attributes that are generally viewed as positive by males as well as females. This is like the stereotype that all Asians are good at math or all African Americans are particularly athletic. It isn't okay to generalize to that degree, but it isn't the same thing as negative stereotypes like Asian people are bad drivers or African American people talk through movies. Women, on the other hand, are stereotyped in games in ways that are not considered positive by females as well as males in general, the slant is clearly toward a physical ideal that is perceived to be valued by males (talking about giant breasts and skimpy outfits here).
I've not been happy about this issue, but I've not seen a need to be ardently proactive about it either, because I feel that as the industry gains more audience equality the problem will correct itself. It did used to be that most players were guys. It makes some sense that they would be catered to as the primary audience and the consideration for female players wouldn't be a high priority (being that they were the minority). As things have begun to even out though, there is a disturbing trend for a certain group of players who are males lashing out at any female player who wants to recognize her values in what she plays. As if we are unwelcome. As if we don't deserve to be part of the community and feel comfortable in it as much as anyone else. This is particularly painful for me as someone who has always been part of the community from the days when it was very much a boys club and thought things would naturally improve and that the improvement would be welcomed.
The thing is there to be studied and she wants to study it - I don't see the issue. This isn't a campaign to boycott games for being what they've been, it's a research project into what have they been, indeed, and where are they going. If we can't stand to be questioned about our history as a community we are not going to develop in a healthy direction. Maybe that is the crux of the problem though. There isn't a "game community" really. We aren't so much a real community as we are a group of people who enjoy a shared hobby and had in the past been forced to band together in defense of that hobby against scrutiny of a wider society. Now that issue is waning and our cohesion is waning with it perhaps. But I digress.
What shocks me is the comments and the hate. I often convince myself that such things are outlying elements of a few people who would be that way no matter where they were or what they were doing. The more this issue comes up though the more I see that I really may not even want to be part of this "community" if that is what the sentiment of it is. So much hatred over simply pointing out that things have been unequal and the outright denial of the possibility that anything about the video games in question could ever be unequal... it just staggers me.
This, this, a thousands times this!!! I had just formulated my point in my head so that I felt confident enough that I could post it without every idiot under the escapist sun accusing me of supporting the douches in the article (which I obviously don't). When I watch this video and find it makes the exact same points I would have (even about the completely unrelated and currently irrelevant topic of bronies) with pictures and shit to boot!Richardplex said:
If "we know," why do so many outright deny it and still more are so oblivious to it?LastGreatBlasphemer said:
So you were going to knock down a bunch of strawmen before you saw he summed up those strawmen so perfectly for you?El Dwarfio said:
You think thats unfair? I'll tell you whats unfair - fucking stereotyping against men.
ALMOST EVERY FUCKING GAME has an action hero, he's always handsome and often smart or ripped, who's an ace shot or ace detective and f there's any girls to have he almost always gets them.
It's fucking sickening, games should be about boring normal people and their boring normal lives and boring normal girls and boring normal cars and boring normal jobs. If I see another ripped male soldier or suave, swift talking hero I'm gonna have a fucking aneurysm.
How dare people use the media as a form of escapism to depict things they like that are unrepresentative of real life.
EDIT: but yeah those commenters mentioned in the article are scum, didn't think I'd need to say it...
EDIT 2:
ALMOST EVERY FUCKING GAME has an action hero, he's always handsome and often smart or ripped, who's an ace shot or ace detective and f there's any girls to have he almost always gets them.
It's fucking sickening, games should be about boring normal people and their boring normal lives and boring normal girls and boring normal cars and boring normal jobs. If I see another ripped male soldier or suave, swift talking hero I'm gonna have a fucking aneurysm.
How dare people use the media as a form of escapism to depict things they like that are unrepresentative of real life.
EDIT: but yeah those commenters mentioned in the article are scum, didn't think I'd need to say it...
EDIT 2:
Think your mis-using the term straw-man there my friend, but if you're trying to imply we're ignoring the point of the article, I would argue that the point is so puerile it doesn't warrant reporting. Yeah some people can be cunts when given anonymity, shock horror, what of it?Zachary Amaranth said:
haven,t read the comments but I assume they say "DURR GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN DURRR" proving her correct on the other hand I don,t really see how woman are being portrayed badly by video games even sex symbols like Lara Craft can be seen as positive role models considering Lara is skilled in various fields.
PS why does she need 60K to do this? YT videos especially like this don,t really cost anything?
PS why does she need 60K to do this? YT videos especially like this don,t really cost anything?
And then all you have is music and movies to contend with.Phasmal said:
I'm all for progress but I find it odd that you could release the same game in movie form and see no controversy.
Probably shouldn't bring reality into this. It's only cool to accept this all as fact.El Dwarfio said:
1. Yes you probably areyeti585 said:
2. I'm not disagreeing with you, but maybe some of the comments were deleted?
3. This is just how the news works, take the loudest group of any position (oftentimes these groups are very small and rarely represent the overall group), then try to present it as what "everybody" is thinking.
Now I'm not saying that there isn't sexism in Video Games, but shouldn't we try to get stronger arguments/sources than fucking YouTube comments? The YouTube comments section is probably one of the worst places on the internet, how is this news? I would be willing to bet that almost all of those sexist comments were made by people who either A- created an account for the sole use of trolling, or B- don't use their real names on YouTube so they can get away with whatever they feel like. Anonymous sexist comments really don't mean anything
I believe it was only $6000, which is still fucking ridiculoushenritje said:
And the magazine industry, and TV, and every other entertainment medium out theretheultimateend said:
I have two points to make:
1) I really hate to be that guy who replies "why is this news?? shit lik this hapenns every day" to every article he reads, up to and including articles on mass murder, but why is this news, shit like this happens every day. Sexist a-holes on YouTube will be sexist a-holes on YouTube. The depth and quantity of the hate isn't even particularly remarkable, nor is it hatred for some new subject the internet has never gotten around to before. It's just more obnoxious, vile, but ultimately inconsequential douchebaggery from more perfect examples of the GIFT.
2) I'm not overly optimistic about this series. Citing Skullgirls as an example of a mysoginistic game is a bit off in my opinion. It's like citing a Tarantino film as an example of a violent gore-porn movie: the entire point is to take that aspect and crank it right over the top to the point that it's clearly meant to be a gentle poke at, if not an outright satire of, the sort of work that tries to use that trope in earnest. I acknowledge it's a noble effort, and I'll probably give it a watch and see where this goes, but I'm not expecting much in the way of revolutionary new ideas.
1) I really hate to be that guy who replies "why is this news?? shit lik this hapenns every day" to every article he reads, up to and including articles on mass murder, but why is this news, shit like this happens every day. Sexist a-holes on YouTube will be sexist a-holes on YouTube. The depth and quantity of the hate isn't even particularly remarkable, nor is it hatred for some new subject the internet has never gotten around to before. It's just more obnoxious, vile, but ultimately inconsequential douchebaggery from more perfect examples of the GIFT.
2) I'm not overly optimistic about this series. Citing Skullgirls as an example of a mysoginistic game is a bit off in my opinion. It's like citing a Tarantino film as an example of a violent gore-porn movie: the entire point is to take that aspect and crank it right over the top to the point that it's clearly meant to be a gentle poke at, if not an outright satire of, the sort of work that tries to use that trope in earnest. I acknowledge it's a noble effort, and I'll probably give it a watch and see where this goes, but I'm not expecting much in the way of revolutionary new ideas.
I think only one person has really commented on my problem with the whole scenario: Do we really want games to get rid of the stereotypes for either sex?
Do you know how boring it would be to play a game that replicates reality right down to a T? Think about it, playing as an average Joe who has to file his taxes would put most gamers to sleep.
No, I don't think women should be reduced to eye-candy trophies that the male characters have to rescue, but would it really help to kill off all sterotypes? Even Princess Peach, who actually isn't over-sexualized? What about Ivy, who is actually one of the tougher fighters in SoulCalibur despite her lacking the armor (or general clothing)? Astoroth, who is gigantic and muscular (and almost as naked as Ivy)?
Yes, videogames could use more positive female protagonists. Even Samus has found herself in an uncomfortable position in her more recent games. However, we had more reason to be upset with her portrayal in Other M because it just did not fit her character, whereas the others were made to be over-sexualized or just weak characters from the very begining. That's the crux of the problem, really. They're made to be that way because videogames are fantasies being marketed to a largly male demographic. I don't want to see them all disapear, either, but I would like to see more respectable representations of the fairer sex in videogames.
Not that we talk about Miku, Xiangua, or even Hammer all that often, eh? There are more of them than you'd think. Just that the negatives still outnumber the positives.
...and a lot of other people have already pointed out the stupidity of the kickstarter, I don't really need to repeat their arguments.
Point: I don't want stereotypes to completely dissapear because then gaming would actually become boring. They need to be less ham-handed, and more nonsterotypical characters should exist to balance out the others, mostly for the female demographic.
Do you know how boring it would be to play a game that replicates reality right down to a T? Think about it, playing as an average Joe who has to file his taxes would put most gamers to sleep.
No, I don't think women should be reduced to eye-candy trophies that the male characters have to rescue, but would it really help to kill off all sterotypes? Even Princess Peach, who actually isn't over-sexualized? What about Ivy, who is actually one of the tougher fighters in SoulCalibur despite her lacking the armor (or general clothing)? Astoroth, who is gigantic and muscular (and almost as naked as Ivy)?
Yes, videogames could use more positive female protagonists. Even Samus has found herself in an uncomfortable position in her more recent games. However, we had more reason to be upset with her portrayal in Other M because it just did not fit her character, whereas the others were made to be over-sexualized or just weak characters from the very begining. That's the crux of the problem, really. They're made to be that way because videogames are fantasies being marketed to a largly male demographic. I don't want to see them all disapear, either, but I would like to see more respectable representations of the fairer sex in videogames.
Not that we talk about Miku, Xiangua, or even Hammer all that often, eh? There are more of them than you'd think. Just that the negatives still outnumber the positives.
...and a lot of other people have already pointed out the stupidity of the kickstarter, I don't really need to repeat their arguments.
Point: I don't want stereotypes to completely dissapear because then gaming would actually become boring. They need to be less ham-handed, and more nonsterotypical characters should exist to balance out the others, mostly for the female demographic.
But there's a deeper problem we encounter when faced with this. Even those of us that listen to the disparity that exists between gender portrayal with the mind to change things have very little effect against the tsunami of ignorant bile that these people project. We can support the projects, yes, and spread awareness, and we can try and instruct others that the portrayal of one of the walking meat slabs that are the varied space marines and foot soldiers of popular gaming are not an equivalent set of problems as bikini-clad martial artists, and show them that even assuming so is a fallacy, but like a tsunami, it's hard to fight, it's easiest to board up, wait until the worst is over, and start recovering. We can ignore it, and filter out the parts of the community that are reasonable and those that are jeering because they find jeers to be a form of communication, but the insipid shouting of these asshats is exponentially louder than our discourse asking what can be done to rectify this inequality. Quite simply, we don't know how to fight it, as a community. Game devs can help more than we can, but foregoing a character creation sheet ripped from TVTropes is apparently something hard to do, and it's gonna take more than just a couple of competent, goal-oriented, real female characters to get this ball rolling. As a society, we're not good at actually confronting problems, and that gets even more compounded in communities like ours, one build around consequence-free anonymity. Right now, our only recourse is ignoring it, turning a blind eye, and that's not how to stop unwanted behavior. Unfortunately, we don't have many other feasible ways to stifle this behavior.Susan Arendt said:
Okay... well idiocy aside, that harassment was probably the best thing that could have happened to that project. No such thing as bad publicity and all that.
And ovendodger... going to have to file that one away. I'd love to use that one on my wife just so she could remind me that we don't own an oven... Well either that or she'd punch me. Could go either way.
And ovendodger... going to have to file that one away. I'd love to use that one on my wife just so she could remind me that we don't own an oven... Well either that or she'd punch me. Could go either way.
Overall, I agree with you. However, it is a little bit like saying we shouldn't worry about who's fighting wars right now, what we really need is some global peace all around, yeah, totally. No one can disagree with the sentiment of such a statement, but it doesn't really address any of the problem and it actually skims over the problem by saying the answer is a perfect solution that doesn't exist and can't come into reality until the problem is dealt with piecemeal.Buretsu said:
There are other problems of generalization and stereotyping in games (and other entertainment media). There are a series of complexities to be handled regarding each facet of those individual issues. We are never going to have an instant solution to all of them at once, however, and saying that one problem should not be brought into the open because all of the problems can't be put in the light at the same time is the path to never solving anything at all.
This is what becomes frustrating about this topic for me. I'm constantly reading that the problem of how women are portrayed in video games can't or shouldn't be addressed until every problem of representation is being also addressed and that just is impossible. It is the same thing as saying that it will never be dealt with, but in an evasive way that shuts down any argument to the contrary.
I would completely support a movement by male gamers to make their representation in games more realistic - without demanding my gender be treated first or alongside it, but I detest the fact that my gender's redress of their representation has to wait until all other concerns are also being dealt with. We aren't asking to be special. We aren't asking other causes to wait on us. Some of us are just trying to address a problem we see, and because the males aren't proactive enough to have their own issue addressed we seem more zealous by comparison and have to be somehow trying to dominate because of that. It's ridiculous. Start a movement if you care, but don't impede a movement for something else because your problem doesn't have one yet.
I really have no problem with this project, I can't see what the fuss is about?
At it's worst this project is looking to tell us what we already know. Will it really impact on the status quo? Well, sex sells so probably not. Then again, nothing changes if we don't try at all.
At it's worst this project is looking to tell us what we already know. Will it really impact on the status quo? Well, sex sells so probably not. Then again, nothing changes if we don't try at all.