Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

[PiCroft]

The bottom line is that her series of videos will change nothing.
Because everyone who may be supporting (either intentionally or unintentionally) sexist ideals in the gaming industry will never watch it.
You can see from the overwhelming negative response that many males feel vilified by this so called documentary. Do you think that they will even watch it? let alone take it seriously? when they feel like they are being demonised?
If she were to look at things from a fair, objective point of view, rather than making her own bias blatantly obvious from the start, then this might of had a chance of reaching an audience who actually needs to see it. As it stands, only people who are already aware of the issue and have picked her "side" of the debate will watch it.

You're right, the issue here is of course to make sure that we don't offend the sensibilities of misogynist ogres who make rape threats, sexist slurs and random anti-semite bile.

God forbid we demonize people who vandalize a woman's wiki page because she wanted to make a documentary about sexism!

 

[Smeatza]

The bottom line is that her series of videos will change nothing.
Because everyone who may be supporting (either intentionally or unintentionally) sexist ideals in the gaming industry will never watch it.
You can see from the overwhelming negative response that many males feel vilified by this so called documentary. Do you think that they will even watch it? let alone take it seriously? when they feel like they are being demonised?
If she were to look at things from a fair, objective point of view, rather than making her own bias blatantly obvious from the start, then this might of had a chance of reaching an audience who actually needs to see it. As it stands, only people who are already aware of the issue and have picked her "side" of the debate will watch it.

You're right, the issue here is of course to make sure that we don't offend the sensibilities of misogynist ogres who make rape threats, sexist slurs and random anti-semite bile.

God forbid we demonize people who vandalize a woman's wiki page because she wanted to make a documentary about sexism!

Whether it is morally right or not to do so, the fact remains that it is not productive.
And the very small minorty who think it necessary to harass her are not the only people that might be supporting sexist ideals, and will be put off by her approach.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I get the impression that you're less responding to feminism as it is actually practiced by actual human beings and more that you're responding to whatever Rush Limbaugh or the local equivalent wants you to see feminism as. Because these are some pretty monumental mistakes.

And I get the idea you're trying to villify me as a Limbaugh disciple rather than adress what I actually have to say.

Please read what I write [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.378338.14802303] instead of what you think it says after a casual glance.
For one thing Limbaugh is a religious maniac, so blaming religion for most gender roles and labeling it as something that needs to be destroyed to achieve equality is hardly American conservative material is it? Heck, merely the notion that equality is a good thing basically makes me a mortal enemy of the American ultra-right.

But that's not going to stop me from disapproving of the extremists on the other side of the fence in equal measure. If anything, Limbaugh and his religion misogyny should be compared to feminists, since they're very much alike. Both have an agenda that preaches their own superiority, blame the wrong factors and both are often really crude and insulting.

The point is not that you're repeating verbatim every right-wing anti-feminist argument, the point is that you've apparently bought the right-wing anti-feminist strawman.

 

[RabbidKuriboh]

ugh feminism was relevant when women didn't have civil rights equal to men,now that they do it isn't

while portrayal of women in video games is a problem its not a problem that needs more attention than say genre saturation or lazy storytelling

over-sexualisation occurs in all media and why video games are singled out more than others simply baffles me and it is not just harmful to women, if expectations of men were also drawn solely from video games most of us would look awful by comparisson

also why does she need $6,000 to make 5 youtube videos?

 

[Gatx]

I personally dislike or at least disagree with Anita Sarkeesian when she called Bayonetta a sexist game. Now granted the video was about an advertisement for the game but she did give her opinion on the character and game itself.

But yes, the response could've been more classy <-understatement.

 

[PiCroft]

Whether it is morally right or not to do so, the fact remains that it is not productive.
And the very small minorty who think it necessary to harass her are not the only people that might be supporting sexist ideals, and will be put off by her approach.

No, its not a fact, You've asserted that no-one will have their minds changed, and that her approach is biased (which is really dumb because its designed to put a point across, not to be a scientific study).

That her attempt alone has brought forth a heated discussion and has done a lot to prove her point already is proof enough her aims are worthwhile.

 

[mirasiel]

You're right, the issue here is of course to make sure that we don't offend the sensibilities of misogynist ogres who make rape threats, sexist slurs and random anti-semite bile.

God forbid we demonize people who vandalize a woman's wiki page because she wanted to make a documentary about sexism!

Yeah, I don't see how anyone can even possible try and justify the behavior of these basement dwelling misfits.

 

[Danzavare]

At the very least, these people have given her an overflow of evidence she can use to prove sexist attitudes still exist in the gaming community.

Yep.
Sadly this proves to reinforce more stereotypes about certain types of dudes in our community than any of her videos ever could. People had a chance to let other people express opinions which they may not agree with but no- not in our community.
(As for people who say this is `just youtube`- bull-fucking-shit. If you* honestly cannot see that our community has women problems, then your head is so far up your arse you will never see daylight).

*Objective you, not personal `you`.

It's also funny to see so many people gloss over the reaction and just go `oh well she shouldnt make those videos`.
Piss off. There are videos out there of guys nailing their dicks to bits of wood. People can make videos of what they want- dont like it? Don't watch it.

It's utterly ridiculous. The worst part is that there is no rational reason someone wouldn't want to be aware of gender inequalities or want a lot of those problems fixed in games. If this woman is anything like most of the feminist gamers she'd be advocating why deeper female character simply offer more and why learning from present and past mistakes can help further that goal.

If they don't care about any of this why are they wasting time on videos that want discussion about games? We have shallow objectification of women (men, bridges, anything really...) for free on the internet if that's what they're afraid of losing. Heck, I'd argue that characters like Bayonetta (In control of her sexuality) present a sexual female far more appealing and interesting than the shallow ones we're used to, while still being a character that can be appreciated by both male (Desperate teens and mature adults alike) and female gamers. On all fronts, I can't imagine any game being worsened by the presence of 'proper' female characters.

Where I'd differ in opinion is with your last paragraph because unlike the example you mentioned (A video made for sexual stimulation), this lady's videos (if done well) could lead to a better awareness and better changes for gaming. By spewing vulgarities at her people are essentially saying that this discussion is not worth having, which ticks me off. I want better female characters because I want better games. I don't enjoy the awkward breaks in logic that pull me out of the game experience (See: Male Knight armor Vs Metal bikini) or blatant insults to my intelligence (See: Newest Hitman trailer). I'm not a sexually repressed tween and I don't appreciate being treated as such.

A lot of gamers just want great gaming experiences - so screw the jerks that want to put their irrational whiny bitching ahead of that. We're not all the repressed human-hating scared-of-females geeky stereotype of American teen movies these people seem to be channeling. D:

Captcha: well read - why thank you captcha~!

 

[Smeatza]

Whether it is morally right or not to do so, the fact remains that it is not productive.
And the very small minorty who think it necessary to harass her are not the only people that might be supporting sexist ideals, and will be put off by her approach.

No, its not a fact, You've asserted that no-one will have their minds changed, and that her approach is biased (which is really dumb because its designed to put a point across, not to be a scientific study).

That her attempt alone has brought forth a heated discussion and has done a lot to prove her point already is proof enough her aims are worthwhile.

Heated discussion? Like you said it was just outright abuse.
And aims and means are not the same thing.
I realise feminism is a social/political thing, but I still expect factual productions to be up to certain standards of journalism. Maybe that's just me.
She's preaching to the choir. And if she were to take and objective point of view she would be much more effective in getting her message to those who actually need to hear it and pay heed.

Yeah, I don't see how anyone can even possible try and justify the behavior of these basement dwelling misfits.

I am not defending them.
Re-read my post.

 

[PiCroft]

Heated discussion? Like you said it was just outright abuse.
And aims and means are not the same thing.
She's preaching to the choir. And if she were to take and objective point of view she would be much more effective in getting her message to those who actually need to hear it and pay heed.

If someone is violently unwilling to have their opinion challenged by something as utterly milquetoast as the proposition "Analysis: videogames as a medium has sexism issues regarding women" then that isn't the problem of the person providing the viewpoint (well it kind of is, but the moral onus isn't on them to water down their views to not offend shitbags, but for the shit bags to not be shitbags).

Also, the potential viewers aren't literally divided only into "I already know all this stuff, I am watching it because it agrees with me" and "I hate femininsts and all they stand for, I will never watch this"

 

[Oskuro]

No no, please, there is no problem. Equality has been reached and feminists are just exaggerating!

Studies pointing at how women are at a massive disadvantage worldwide in issues like employment, healthcare or their right to free speech are obviously bullshit, I mean, what kind of legitimacy do organizations like the UN have to make such assessments?

And let's not forget cases like Angie Varona (Google her), a girl whose Photobucket account was hacked and personal pictures publicly distributed, and afterwards got subjected to all kinds of abuse and harassment due to her *daring* to be a beautiful woman (14 year old teenager in those pictures, actually).

Obviously, a man showing his pecs online would be totally subjected to the same slut-shaming and rape-threats, because equality has been achieved!




Really, men, we have to shut the fuck up.

 

[Evan Waters]

Okay, seriously, do people not get the idea that money can be used to live on while you do a thing that doesn't pay a salary? And this is why novelists get advances? But this model apparently is badwrong for video work.

Also, anyone who says "She has an obligation to be unbiased" basically knows nothing about the history of documentary film throughout the history of time. Why We Fight was propaganda and it's still great documentary filmmaking.

Don't like what she's doing? Fine, don't donate. But don't fume and rage about it. Far worse things are getting funded.

 

[Evan Waters]

ugh feminism was relevant when women didn't have civil rights equal to men,now that they do it isn't

Do they? When did this happen?

There's not even an equivalent of the Civil Rights Act for women. The Equal Rights Amendment was passed but never ratified.

 

[Kahunaburger]

My point: There's no conspiracy of all men going on to suppress all women, there are many factors involved, most of them involving religion, or own choices. A mono-explanation or a conspiracy theory is folly.

Yeah, and the notion of feminism as a conspiracy theory about how all men are trying to suppress all women is a pretty classic right-wing talking point. It doesn't resemble actual feminism.

 

[Smeatza]

If someone is violently unwilling to have their opinion challenged by something as utterly milquetoast as the proposition "Analysis: videogames as a medium has sexism issues regarding women" then that isn't the problem of the person providing the viewpoint (well it kind of is, but the moral onus isn't on them to water down their views to not offend shitbags, but for the shit bags to not be shitbags).

What is the point in the videos if not educate and appeal to those who currently see sexist ideals as acceptable? Or make those that unintentionally support sexist ideals aware that they are doing so?
If their sole purpose is just a big pat on the back for those who are against sexism then it seems like an exercise in futility to me.

Also, the potential viewers aren't literally divided only into "I already know all this stuff, I am watching it because it agrees with me" and "I hate femininsts and all they stand for, I will never watch this"

No but her approach will have put off many otherwise reasonable people who feel their favourite hobby (or games within that hobby) are being unfairly singled out.

Don't get me wrong, I admire her motivations and agree with what she had to say in the kickstarter video (for the most part). And I realise that people are donating to what she has put forward, so there's obviously a demand for it.

It's just that whenever people try to address this issue, from either side, you get such a barrage of sensationalist fervor that it's hard to take either side seriously. So whenever I see a project like this, where a bias is apparent from the word go, and a single type of media is singled out from all others. The lost potential does disappoint me.

Like I say, perhaps I shouldn't expect documentaries to meet journalistic standards, but as a factual production, I do.

 

[mirasiel]

I am not defending them.
Re-read my post.

I wasn't actually talking to/about you but re-reading your post, actually you do seem to me to be defending or at least justifying the behavior of trolls.

 

[Danzavare]

I realise feminism is a social/political thing, but I still expect factual productions to be up to certain standards of journalism. Maybe that's just me.
She's preaching to the choir. And if she were to take and objective point of view she would be much more effective in getting her message to those who actually need to hear it and pay heed.

I hate to interrupt but what do you mean by 'objective point of view'? I understand the idea of fact checking insofar as physical realities (Release dates, platform, etc) but I don't understand what you mean by an objective point of view.

Ethnography and historiography are just two academic fields that deal with the inherent subjectivity of texts. Your choice in words, subject matter and selection of evidence all alter the information you present. Even science reports are marked by their conscious decision to use 'scientific writing conventions' to present their information, and tend to have a particular aim or hypothesis in mind (At the necessary exclusion of others). Subjectivity doesn't negate the value of a discussion, it's an inherent part of it.

To keep to the topic, how do you find the objective facts behind the social implications of games? Sure, you can work toward an intuitive and intelligent interpretation of a game and how this may sit with its broader context (As I imagine is her aim), but I can't see how you can pull out an objective account or point of view from it.

When you say people who need to hear it, do you mean the ones in your other post?

The bottom line is that her series of videos will change nothing.
Because everyone who may be supporting (either intentionally or unintentionally) sexist ideals in the gaming industry will never watch it.
You can see from the overwhelming negative response that many males feel vilified by this so called documentary. Do you think that they will even watch it? let alone take it seriously? when they feel like they are being demonised?
If she were to look at things from a fair, objective point of view, rather than making her own bias blatantly obvious from the start, then this might of had a chance of reaching an audience who actually needs to see it. As it stands, only people who are already aware of the issue and have picked her "side" of the debate will watch it.

I think you're forgetting all the people who don't have a strong opinion either way. It's perfectly plausible to think that the video is aimed to educate and inform people who either aren't aware of the issue, haven't given it adequate thought or know the issue, but don't yet grasp its serious implications for gaming and gaming's place in society. I'd hate to think how difficult progress would be if the only way to it was through stubborn minorities (In any issues there are always people who will never see reason). As far as getting many people to see it I'm thinking it'll be more a marketing problem than anything else.

In all honesty I'm not sure I'll agree with everything she will say, but I think it's definitely a debate worth having.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

"OH NO! PEOPLE ARE BEING MEAN AND WACIST ON THE INTERWEBS!!!" You might as well link to any given thread on fucking 4chan and call that "Journalism".

I frankly can't fucking believe that this article was approved.

I dunno, I think a huge, ORGANIZED backlash that includes mass reporting of her videos to YouTube as hate speech and defamation of her Wikipedia page is actually pretty newsworthy.

And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

Why is it that in every feminism debate on this website the "I have evidence, I promise, I just don't have it with me" people are always on the anti-feminism side?

I've never seen someone source the 1 in 4 rape stat.

And I've never seen anyone source the stupid claim that rapists think all other men are also rapists, and rape jokes reinforce that.

Sources for the 1/4 claim listed here [http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php].

1994? Oh so it's just really out of date now. Look at how low rape rates have fallen

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/viortrdtab.cfm

Rape jokes are bullshit anyway. OH NOES WE CANT MAKE LIGHT OF ONE OF THE WORST THINGS A PERSON CAN GO THROUGH BAWWWWW

No it's more like "WAHH we hate this kind of dark humor, quick make up some bullshit about how it's harmful so we can justify a campaign against it"

Homework does not entail reading biased as fuck people who already agree with you.

He quite clearly already knows what the smurfette principle is, but he disagrees with you so you gotta call him a sexist.

Homework DOES entail reading stuff from people who know a hell of a lot more about the subject and have thought about it more than you ever will. Knowing *what* the Smurfette Principle is and knowing *why* it is wrong and *why* his usage of it as a defense there was fucked up are different things.

Why can't you just explain it or link to the explanations yourself at the very least? This is basically "you do the research for my claims"

But please, by all means continue to be the rape apologist.

A rape apologist? If you don't know the difference between fictional jokes and actual rape ... you're a probably a danger to others and should be monitored at all times.

1.) Less than half of rapes ever go reported. Things do not magically fix themselves in a decade and a half. (Also, the sources are all at the bottom.)

2.) Got it. So having your pwecious widdle jokes is more important to you than the comfort and safety of people who have been through one of the most traumatic experiences possible. One in six women in the united states are raped. (The 1/4 stat, looking at it, is about college students.) *You know someone who has been raped*, odds are. And how do you think your pwecious wape jokes make her feel? Oh, what's that? You didn't think of that? great job.

3.) It is not my responsibility to educate you. Become a better person.

4.) Yep, a rape apologist. Again, read the "rape culture" article. Promoting a culture that trivializes rape, even in little ways, allows that culture to thrive, and subsequently makes it more likely that women will be abused. Sexual assault and rape DO NOT HAPPEN IN A VACUUM.

...uh..lol. Please explain to me how astrophysics is a Men's Gender Studies department, or how geology is a Men's Gender Studies department.

Because like most (all?) scientific departments, they tend to focus exclusively on the contributions of male scientists, with any work by women brushed under the table. How many times do you learn about Ada Lovelace in CompSci?

So in your opinion, feminism is for women's equality and if they help men its a plus but not it's primary intention, correct? If that is how you view feminism, then your right to say that she shouldn't be expected to also focus on male gender issues. However, if I have misread this and your saying feminism is about gender equality, then I see no reason why she shouldn't devote time to male gender issues in video games as well.

Strawman argument. Feminism is about gender equality in its ultimate point. However, since women are the marginalized sex, it is more concerned with their rights and issues because *they have further to go*.

Screaming ABOUT TEH WEMONZ doesn't do much either besides create really long escapist threads.

It educates. It makes people think about things they don't question due to their privilege. That's the most important part. Way more than crying about perceived inequality when we're already a lot more equal.

Here's an interesting study from... a year ago? Two years? I don't remember - In a classroom/business environment, if men and women speak out exactly 50/50, where half the conversation is from women and half from men, men will perceive it as women "dominating" the conversation. They only think it's equal when it falls down to somewhere from 30-40% on the womens' part. Similarly, a group of people where exactly half are men and half are women will be perceived by the men as being mostly women.

We see equality as being unequal for us because we are so used to being the default.

snip

The article was crap, apparently rape culture doesn't have to have rape involved? Then it isn't rape culture!

>The Point

>Your Head

The entire point of the article is that rape and sexual assault *do not exist in a vacuum.* There is a culture around us that enables it, that encourages it however subtly - by questioning rape victims when we wouldn't, say, doubt the word of someone that he was mugged.

To that end, one can promote rape culture without being a rapist. Without ever actually mentioning rape. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

 

[Smeatza]

I am not defending them.
Re-read my post.

I wasn't actually talking to/about you but re-reading your post, actually you do seem to me to be defending or at least justifying the behavior of trolls.

My apologies then.
I'll spell it out anyway. As unjust as their responses are it shows that a number of people who are part of the problem will become instantly defensive when directly attacked. In spite of the valid points presented to them.

 

[Caligulove]

Boy, that escalated quickly.

I'm always amazed at how a woman talking about anything regarding gender roles or portrayal of women will be overcome by "nazi feminism **** kitchen slave" vitriol before a full sentence or thesis can be stated. There are valid questions here to be asked before giving a donation to her (as with any kickstarter) but they're all missed by knee-jerk douchebaggery and "hilarious" sexist jokes.

The internet is just a cesspit sometimes. Lots of sad, pitiful people that have serious issues with women.