Ahh, the good old days, where the best directions you'd get was a compass heading, and dungeon maps were the scrawls you made on grid paper. Good times.
Kids Can't Handle Old-School RPGs Anymore
- Thread starter Tom Goldman
- Start date
I was responding to why people don't read the "READ THIS" things. Otherwise I agree with you.Sylocat said:
I miss the days when game designers assumed people read the manuals so they wouldn't have to include boring game tutorials. Now, if you read the manual, you already know what to do and yet you're bogged down by NPCs who reiterate everything you just read in a painfully slow manner. Or even worse, the manual doesn't explain half the controls of the game so you HAVE to pay attention to the tutorial and then have no future reference to crawl back, or have to bog yourself down with in-game menus. It's no wonder people who got into gaming recently have no fondness for additional reading when modern games are such hand-holders.
But I admit, these days it is bad game design to NOT tell you where to go. Even in an open-ended game, you should be able to figure out what your character is capable of doing without having to read a textbook.
But I admit, these days it is bad game design to NOT tell you where to go. Even in an open-ended game, you should be able to figure out what your character is capable of doing without having to read a textbook.
I think there's a reason why people don't tolerate having to mark everything down on grid paper - that's bad design. Making a player do non-engaging labor that could be accomplished by an automated map system, just so they can play the game, is bad user interface.
Software, as a general rule, should have good user interface. There should be contextual cues that explain minutiae that can't be fit into a tutorial (attribute description, command description [In a rogue-like I'm fond of: (z)ap which monster?]). A game should rarely, if ever, make you fight with its interface.
Software, as a general rule, should have good user interface. There should be contextual cues that explain minutiae that can't be fit into a tutorial (attribute description, command description [In a rogue-like I'm fond of: (z)ap which monster?]). A game should rarely, if ever, make you fight with its interface.
What surprised me most in this article was the fact that videogame history courses exist. I wonder how long I'll have to wait for interactive media historians to start popping up.
Incidentally, I would have to recommend not reading online walkthroughs. I read most of one for Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura and it sadly ruined the game for me. The guide in question did not give away spoilers, but it did change the way I operated by telling me locations of rare and powerful items. The guide also mentioned that a certain potential party member (I won't speak its name, that would just ruin things) was far too powerful and made the game too easy. However, I rather like said potential party member, so this created quite a struggle for me that ultimately messed up the game.
Incidentally, I would have to recommend not reading online walkthroughs. I read most of one for Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura and it sadly ruined the game for me. The guide in question did not give away spoilers, but it did change the way I operated by telling me locations of rare and powerful items. The guide also mentioned that a certain potential party member (I won't speak its name, that would just ruin things) was far too powerful and made the game too easy. However, I rather like said potential party member, so this created quite a struggle for me that ultimately messed up the game.
Sir, you are mistaken, Steam has manuals. If you wish to access them simply right-click on a game's icon and select "view player manual" from the context menu.SnipErlite said:
I loved Ultima IV and Ultima V on the old Apple IIe. Truth be told, I don't think I ever read the manual, yet managed to finish those games as a 13-14 year old back in the late 80s. They are 2 games that I had an exercise book simply for note taking, self drawn dungeon maps, passwords, obscure locations, and other secrets. I then passed on that book to other friends who wanted to play them after I was done. I have really fond memories of playing those games, but I don't think I'd go back in a hurry to replay them.
So the point of the article is telling people that if you're used to modern stuff, it's hard to go back to the old stuff? Euhm... duh? Especially if you were born after the old stuff. I mean... Sure, games are a lot easier then they were before but half of those old games are nothing more then glorified memories. There's nothing grand about them anymore. It's like saying "You should have definately driven the first car ever build if you're into driving/racing."
The younger crowd ruining and not understanding RPG's isn't anything new I mean why do you think Turn Based combat is a thing of the past and battles are now little more than any button mashing action game you can mention. And then there's the arrow thing that was sort of brought up, you can't even go to a town and ask a guy where to go next and find it yourself that's too complicated for the twats so you have a literal Arrow hold their hand and walk them there.
Seriously do we have to have people trying to rip one out of FFVII every single time it is mentioned in a thread. I love it other people and every damn game is overrated by its fans. If you don't like i t fair enough as the first person who quoted him mention fairly that the plot is love or hate it is a marmite type plot and the combat is a bit easy. In fact I actually consider FFVI to be the most over rated in the series especially on this site. You never really get someone going on this site "OMG FFVII BEST FF GAME EVA" but you always get someone saying I like FF but I didn't like FFVII aren't I quite the rebel being different just like everyone else.mjc0961 said:
So fair enough if you personally do not like the game I don't care about that but don't be calling it overrated especially on this site where it is probably the least overrated game. Personally I do think it is a classic of PS1 JRPGs and one that everyone should try along with Chrono Trigger and Breath of Fire 3. There are plenty of other Classic PS1 JRPGs as well but FFVII is one of them.
It has to be recognised that just because the game is old, and top of its class at the time, does not mean it's any good.
A quick for example:
What in the article has been described as "leading the players by the hand" has a more accurate definition as a difficulty curve, and not an unforgiving one. If having an accessible difficulty curve makes a game poorer by design, then should we keep trying to be an accessible medium?
Now I'm one of those youngsters who've never played an 8 bit RPG, but at the same time, I've played inaccessible games such as Dungeons and Dragons. (Don't believe that it's inaccessible? Give a non-roleplayer the first edition sourcebooks and let them flounder), ones that demand the player use their imagination and own wit, and to a much greater degree than any roleplaying game on a computer.
There's no reason to assume from that correlation that a younger audience is unable to understand those games. They simply have access to superior games today.
Let the nostalgic rose tinted flames begin.
A quick for example:
What in the article has been described as "leading the players by the hand" has a more accurate definition as a difficulty curve, and not an unforgiving one. If having an accessible difficulty curve makes a game poorer by design, then should we keep trying to be an accessible medium?
Now I'm one of those youngsters who've never played an 8 bit RPG, but at the same time, I've played inaccessible games such as Dungeons and Dragons. (Don't believe that it's inaccessible? Give a non-roleplayer the first edition sourcebooks and let them flounder), ones that demand the player use their imagination and own wit, and to a much greater degree than any roleplaying game on a computer.
There's no reason to assume from that correlation that a younger audience is unable to understand those games. They simply have access to superior games today.
Let the nostalgic rose tinted flames begin.
It's not news... Speak to any young gamer and they all have a hard time with old school game.Tom Goldman said:Kids Can't Handle Old-School RPGs Anymore
A college professor that teaches the history of videogames has noticed that kids simply cannot grasp Ultima IV.
Michael Abbott teaches a course called The Art and History of Electronic Gaming at Wabash College, and is known for spreading the videogame love to Portal [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/102951-College-Professor-Requires-Students-to-Study-Portal]. In an interesting article he's written on his blog Brainy Gamer, Abbott discusses the trouble kids have with playing older RPGs.
Abbott exposes his students to older titles like the original Fallout, Rogue, and Planetfall in his course. Most of the students handle being taken out of their comfort zones with the isometric strategy title, ASCII roguelike, and text-based adventure, but there's one game in particular that they don't seem to be able to handle: Ultima IV.
Origin released Ultima IV on the Apple II in 1985 and it's acclaimed as one of the top RPGs for its time. Instead of having players focus on killing orcs, it required that they reach enlightenment within eight virtues to become the series' Avatar. Its character creation system, conversation system, and huge world are examples of what players liked about it.
But Ultima IV is very different from World of Warcraft [http://www.amazon.com/World-Warcraft-Cataclysm-Pc/dp/B002I0HKIU/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285435557&sr=8-1] and other modern games that hold the player's hand and point an arrow at their goals. Abbott provided all the documentation that his students would need, but they didn't seem to realize that the reading the game's documentation was necessary.
One student said: "I've been very confused throughout the entire experience. I've honestly sat here for hours trying to figure out what to do and it just isn't making much sense to me right now." Another: "When I start a game I like to do it all on my own, but it's been impossible to do so with Ultima." A third: "I tried for awhile without any walkthroughs to get the full gamer experience sort of thing and within the hour I gave up because of a combination of bad controls and a hard to get into story for me at least. It reminded me of a bad Runescape."
The comments don't seem to be indicative of one of the top RPGs of all time. Students also call the game "boring" and "unplayable," but when Abbott questioned whether they read Ultima IV's documentation provided in PDF format, it turned out that not a single one had. "Wow," one replied when Abbott told him that the game's designer, Richard Garriott, expected players to read the manual first.
Abbott believes the "gap separating today's generation of gamers from those of us who once drew maps on grid paper is nearly unbridgeable." Indeed, this seems to be true about a lot of games from the 1980s and 1990s. While certain games were revolutionary for their time, even I find it hard to go back to older titles that I once enjoyed immensely, so it's unlikely for the average teenage Halo [http://www.amazon.com/Halo-Reach-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA20M/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285435989&sr=8-1] player to be able to realize the impact of a game like Ultima IV. Abbott no longer assumes "the game will make its case for greatness all by itself," and says he may take a more hands-on educational approach in regards to the classic RPG.
Source: BrainyGamer [http://www.brainygamer.com/the_brainy_gamer/2010/09/unplayable.html]
Permalink
Hah, yeah its a good point, when I was younger the first thing I would do after buying a computer game would be to read the manual which could sometimes take ages. I think the game that stopped me doing that was Baldur's Gate because the manual was more like an actual book which while interesting I don't think it was much help playing the game apart from pages and pages of baffling tables at the end. Fortunately Candlekeep was a pretty good 'tutorial'.
Can't really relate since I grew up with 8-bit era games but even back then some were horribly designed and impenetrable. Games like Ultima might be too far towards the geek level of table top gamers by the sounds of it.
Though I must admit I only completed Fallout last year and damn is the turn based system clunky. Still very enjoyable and worth playing but you need to be very patient in comparison to most other games.
Still I don't think people are unable to enjoy extremely hard old school RPGs, Etrian Odyssey is extremely popular.
Though I must admit I only completed Fallout last year and damn is the turn based system clunky. Still very enjoyable and worth playing but you need to be very patient in comparison to most other games.
Still I don't think people are unable to enjoy extremely hard old school RPGs, Etrian Odyssey is extremely popular.
I've always read the manuals of new games unless it's part of a trilogy of games that I have played before, in which case it will likely have similar controls to its counterparts.
I remember playing on my parent's old Coleco vision when I was ridiculously young.
The only old gaming device I had played with for a very long period of time was our Commodore Amiga. Games like Desert Strike, Cannon Fodder, Lotus Challenge (I still remember the cheat 'peasoup' for the wet London stage for some reason), Walker, Swiv, Fruit Salad and loads of others.
I remember playing on my parent's old Coleco vision when I was ridiculously young.
The only old gaming device I had played with for a very long period of time was our Commodore Amiga. Games like Desert Strike, Cannon Fodder, Lotus Challenge (I still remember the cheat 'peasoup' for the wet London stage for some reason), Walker, Swiv, Fruit Salad and loads of others.
yeah, now the books that come with games contain about as much information as loading screens, and if you install the games to the hard drives of the respective consoles, you hardly get to see those. I remember a golden era around the PSOne era where you could read a manual and have some entertainment, for example FF7 having character bios in the booklet, even being so kind as to put a walkthrough for the first level in the back.