Killing is Too Easy

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

The point of any punishment including life and the death penalty for a crime isn't revenge, rehabilitation, victim compensation, or even removing a dangerous and/or disruptive element from society, despite what the people who are responsible for doling out these punishments tell everybody. The point of the punishment is prevention, it's about scaring people so shitless about being punished that they won't even consider performing a crime, much less actually do it. If tomorrow society collapsed and punishments like jail or the death penalty could no longer happen, despite what those same people would say otherwise if asked prior, the vast majority of people would start stealing everything that wasn't nailed down, raping, and killing everybody else (many post apocalyptic games like The Last of Us are built on this point). It's the FEAR of punishment that allows society to even exist to begin with, to avoid descending into anarchy. Sure, many people will be falsely convicted and punished, including being executed, but this is an unavoidable cost of something that society can't function without.

OT: Violence is the go-to solution for most everything in fiction and games in particular not only because it's easy for the developers, or because humanity just inherently loves violence, but because it's probably the ultimate escapism. Hurting and killing others has always been the ultimate taboo throughout human history, even cultures that have allowed it set limits as to when, how, and why, so being allowed to witness and in games partake in violence in fiction allows us to be able to do something we never would be able to do otherwise without facing great consequences, and thus get out of our boring, mundane lives for a while. We spend most of our real lives interacting with others, trying to convince them to do what we want or to not do something, and otherwise avoiding physical conflict whenever possible. As a result, in our entertainment we love to see and partake in physical conflict because we would never be able to do so otherwise, something that's no only so different from our everyday lives, but something heavily frowned upon. We don't care much to talk our way out of or otherwise avoid conflict or see others do so in our fiction because that it isn't really an escape to do or see in our fiction what our real lives are like.

I think the real issue is that in fiction and games especially violence is the only solution to anything and everything, and we also don't want to see in our fiction the same crap over and over again, it gets boring. Even the ultimate escapism gets tiresome after seeing it for the 50,000th time.

 

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

The problem with video games like The Last of Us, comes from the very nature of the medium. Games are, by design, played for enjoyment - now that's not to say they can't be emotionally engaging, challenging, etc; but ultimately we feel some enjoyment from playing them. When you are playing as the villain/anti-hero problems arise in that if we are forced to commit terrible acts as part of the gameplay, we don't necessarily feel bad - in fact we possibly enjoy it if the gameplay is designed to be fun. So we have a situation were we are forced to play as the villain and identify with them, whilst not fully comprehending the gravity of their actions as it becomes lost in translation due to the enjoyability of the gameplay.

If The Last of Us was a book or movie, then the story would work as we are experiencing events directly through the eyes Joel without the visceral thrill of actually playing the game. That's my two cents anyway.

I see where you are coming from, but a long time ago, most movies and fiction books were also only considered as something to watch / read only for enjoyment. The thing is, that when a medium does mature creators become more confident about the expressive capabilities of their canvas, and begin tackling concepts that were previously unthinkable to the audience.
This is a phenomenon present in art as a whole.
The last of us is not the first game to do this, not even close, In fact the whole survival horror genre is arguably not designed solely for enjoyment. The situation has evolved and as I mentioned in another forum, Videogames are somewhat transcending their "game" status. They are gradually leaving behind most of their formal and mechanic requirements, to become something else.

Now it is not unlikely to find a movie that is very dark and delves in complex issues without ever leaving a feel-good sense in the viewer, and although a lot of people avoid that sort of experience, there is a huge audience craving the ideological clash. Games already begun doing this, not meaning that they are abandoning FUN, there will always be enjoyment, but they are no longer tied unavoidably to supplying rapid gratification.

 

[Jumplion]

The point of any punishment including life and the death penalty for a crime isn't revenge, rehabilitation, victim compensation, or even removing a dangerous and/or disruptive element from society, despite what the people who are responsible for doling out these punishments tell everybody. The point of the punishment is prevention, it's about scaring people so shitless about being punished that they won't even consider performing a crime, much less actually do it. If tomorrow society collapsed and punishments like jail or the death penalty could no longer happen, despite what those same people would say otherwise if asked prior, the vast majority of people would start stealing everything that wasn't nailed down, raping, and killing everybody else (many post apocalyptic games like The Last of Us are built on this point). It's the FEAR of punishment that allows society to even exist to begin with, to avoid descending into anarchy. Sure, many people will be falsely convicted and punished, including being executed, but this is an unavoidable cost of something that society can't function without.

That's assuming the only thing stopping people from looting, stealing, killing, and raping is the death penalty, which is clearly not the case. The concept of the death penalty being used to "scare" people is also false as places that do enforce the death penalty, at least in the US as far as I know, have about the same crime rate as other places without the death penalty. If it worked as a deterrent, Rick Perry wouldn't have had to enforce it for over 200 people already.

Now, I do agree with your statement of "It's the FEAR of punishment that allows society to even exist to begin with", though that is not specific to the death penalty, unless I've been reading your comment wrong this whole time.

 

[llafnwod]

Yes. "Blame the audience, not the author" I agree with that wholeheartedly. Goes along with the idea that if you don't like something don't buy it. Don't add to it's audience.

Then I mistook those for sarcastic air-quotes. Rock on, meng.

 

[Callate]

Good read. Some interesting thoughts on the situation.

It's hard for me to take killing seriously in most FPSs- in part because a) so frequently they don't even bother using different textures for different enemies of the same "type", or more than a small rotation of same, and b) playing multiplayer re-enforces the idea that "death" within the context of the game world is more of an inconvenience- being put in a penalty box, rather than the end of mortal consciousness.

I haven't played The Last of Us or Uncharted, as I don't own a PS3, so I can't directly relate on that account

I will relate something about the recent "Walking Dead" DLC, "400 Days", though that did bother me for different reasons, though spoilers apply.

Spoiler

In one of the game's five character segments, Bonnie, wounded by a gunshot and isolated from the other two people in her party, is hiding from her pursuers (including whoever shot her.) Crouching behind a tractor, and with someone coming near, she seizes a piece of rebar. When the unseen figure comes around the edge of the tractor, she hits them in the head with the rebar.

It turns to be one of the characters in your party.

Oh, grief! Oh, guilt, oh...

Except, if you don't hit her, the "unseen figure" hits you with her flashlight. You are dead. Game over. Try again.

It's really hard to feel an investment in an act of violence, no matter how much you're told you should, if you're never given another choice.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

The 'Last of Us' sure has a lot of defenders that come out of the wood work every which way when someone speaks ill of their game.

 

[Sarge034]

For the love of god Yahtzee, we aren't killing people. We are pointing pixels that put pixels into other pixels. There is so much fundamentally wrong with this argument I don't know where to start. Joel and Tess were going to talk to the smuggler because they needed to know where their shit was. They killed him because he tried to have them killed. They killed the first guard because he refused to let them talk to the smuggler and then he pulled his weapon and threatened them.

You're intentionally doing this stuff for the site traffic now, aren't you?
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

 

[Black Reaper]

That bit you mentioned about with the death sentence...I never thought of it that way before, and wow. I'm now even further against the death sentence.

Anyway...I've very recently discovered a game that focusses on this "Killing is too easy" thing - Undertale. It's only a demo, but it made several poingiant points. If you haven't played it and want to, it's a lovely little RPG, give it a go, but DON'T click the spoiler. If you've either played it or don't care...

Spoiler

The game utterly chewed me out for killing some random mooks, stating that I saved Toriel - the lovely mother figure I'd grown to love - ...But what if some of the mooks I had killed were to someone else what Toriel was to me? That made me feel like shit. So...I replayed it, and this is where it gets relevant due to the antagonist's speech.

"So, you didn't kill anyone. This time. But suppose you meet a relentless killer. What will happen then? You'll die, and die, and die. So what will you do then? Will you kill out of frustration, or quit and let me take over?"

This point here reinforces just how easy it has become for a lot of gamers to just kill everyone in thier way, because the option of a peaceful resoloution is more difficult as opposed to just leaving a trail of bodies. This, in conjunction with the "They could have been someone else's Toriel" line, really makes this game stand out as the Spec Ops: The Line of RPGs.

You will be glad to know that this has only strengthened my resolve. I will not take the easy approach. I will prove the antagonist wrong. I will show that it is NOT kill or be killed. The only monster is him, and I will be more than glad to show him who the only person who deserves death in that game is. He is not anyone's Toriel. He is nobody's role model. And he will NOT be mourned, due to the torment he would be putting people through if I wasn't there.

That sounds awesome, it reminds me of another game that has a similar theme, Fullmetal Daemon Muramasa
It's basically about a guy who has a sweet mecha, but his mecha comes with a curse, every time he kills someone he hates, he must also kill someone he loves

Spoiler: this might be a spoiler

The guy who made the mecha in-game made it to point out the hypocrisy of killing for justice and such, mostly everyone has family and friends and such who would mourn them if they died, so to balance the loss of life on the enemy's side, someone on your side has to die

Spoiler: now this is a spoiler

There is one point in one of the routes where you kill an asshole priest who raped a girl in front of an audience while a boy who had a crush on her watched, it seems as though you did the right thing, but later on a guy who wants to kill you says that his sister was under the priest's care, and now that he died she died too, even if he was a dick, by killing that priest you also killed an innocent girl

If you have free time, you should read this guy's translation of it

 

[kael013]

"Killing humans in a game to establish that our character has completely lost it, as in God of War and Spec Ops? Like it. Player-protagonist disconnect, very effective storytelling tool. Go nuts."

This is exactly what The Last of Us is about, and the fact that you don't seem to understand that is baffling to me.

In order to disconnect from something you have to connect to it in the first place. Showing the protagonist as Joel is shown from the very start doesn't allow for a disconnect - it just shows them as an unrepentant sociopathic killer, a mindset most of us can't get into. Now if they had shown us Joel acting as a normal person would have been acting at the beginning, then giving us a situation so bad that Joel accepts that being a ruthless killer is really the only way to survive would have been better. In that case we get to relate to him, only to have that relationship disconnected - which is what Yahtzee means in that quote. Both Kratos and Walker are shown as normal(ish) people at the beginning of their stories; Joel isn't.

All in all, good thought-provoking article Yahtzee. Now that I think about it it's kind of amazing how many games give us a choice as to how we play, then force us to kill when in a fight.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

You kinda have been reading it wrong. The death penalty is merely one of countless punishments that act as a deterrent, by itself it would never be enough to scare people into never committing a crime, even if it were used in excess. There are a myriad of punishments that when used effectively in conjunction reduce crime. The more effective those punishments are at creating fear, the better they are at acting as a deterrent.

I've also heard that "countries that don't have the death penalty have just as much crime as those who don't," before and it just doesn't hold water. That argument is a single cause fallacy, it assumes that the death penalty itself doesn't make a difference in crime because crime in various countries is roughly equal with or without it, but such an argument fails to take into account the countless other factors besides the death penalty that affect crime in each of these countries that could cause the number to even out, and it also assumes that this means that countries would be better off if they never had the death penalty, something that's impossible to determine. Either way, it's not really valid evidence one way or the other whether the death penalty is effective or not. The only way that such a line of reasoning would be valid is if every country on Earth had the death penalty simultaneously for say... 10 years, and then all dropped it simultaneously and compared the numbers, and even that would be affected by way too many factors to list.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

We like violence because we hate each other.

And I like my media violent, because senseless violence is fun and people suck.

 

[Jumplion]

Snip

You kinda have been reading it wrong. The death penalty is merely one of countless punishments that act as a deterrent, by itself it would never be enough to scare people into never committing a crime, even if it were used in excess. There are a myriad of punishments that when used effectively in conjunction reduce crime. The more effective those punishments are at creating fear, the better they are at acting as a deterrent.

In that respect we agree to an extent, and if you include "social suicide" as one of those punishments, I would agree completely. I apologize if I misread your comment.

I've also heard that "countries that don't have the death penalty have just as much crime as those who don't," before and it just doesn't hold water. That argument is a single cause fallacy, it assumes that the death penalty itself doesn't make a difference in crime because crime in various countries is roughly equal with or without it, but such an argument fails to take into account the countless other factors besides the death penalty that affect crime in each of these countries that could cause the number to even out, and it also assumes that this means that countries would be better off if they never had the death penalty, something that's impossible to determine. Either way, it's not really valid evidence one way or the other whether the death penalty is effective or not. The only way that such a line of reasoning would be valid is if every country on Earth had the death penalty simultaneously for say... 10 years, and then all dropped it simultaneously and compared the numbers, and even that would be affected by way too many factors to list.

That, however, I think is kind of bs. You can see with states that once had the death penalty but then removed it, crime had not changed significantly regardless of its enforcement. The argument isn't that the death penalty has a significant effect, but rather that it doesn't have a significant effect, and the removal of it in states that once had it should be enough to see that result. If you say "there's too many variables to determine anything", then we can't determine whether people like ice cream or not because it depends on the season, how the ice cream is made, what flavor, what brand, how it is served, waffle cone or cup, etc... I would assume that the studies that both of us have seen would have the courtesy to correct for any variable anomalies.

Regardless, if you'd like to talk more about this topic feel free to PM me as it's probably best to keep from clogging this thread from ancillary topics.

 

[Animyr]

In order to disconnect from something you have to connect to it in the first place. Showing the protagonist as Joel is shown from the very start doesn't allow for a disconnect - it just shows them as an unrepentant sociopathic killer, a mindset most of us can't get into. Now if they had shown us Joel acting as a normal person would have been acting at the beginning, then giving us a situation so bad that Joel accepts that being a ruthless killer is really the only way to survive would have been better. In that case we get to relate to him, only to have that relationship disconnected - which is what Yahtzee means in that quote. Both Kratos and Walker are shown as normal(ish) people at the beginning of their stories; Joel isn't.

Erm...yes he is. That's the entire point of the prologue section. It's a fairly short sequence, but crucial for exactly the reason that you described. Even if you don't think the sequence was effective (for some reason; it's one of the best scripted sequences in a recent game, IMHO), please don't pretend that they didn't try.

Unless, of course, you haven't played or watched the game at all and are relying on the incomplete information Yahtzee provided and out-of-context video clips to make your evaluation. That does seem to be going around on this thread.

Now while I do think that Yahtzee has completely (and bafflingly) misunderstood the game, and that LOU did a fine job at contextualizing it's violence in the exact way the games Spec ops was mocking didn't, I also think that it would have been better served if it had had less fighting and more peaceful activities like hunting and quiet exploration/travel through the environment. The story covers several months and skips time on several occasions; why did every episode the action slowed down to explore involve at least one firefight? It seems that Naughty dog just couldn't quite let go of the instinctive urge to pad every level out with enemy encounters that it acquired while making Uncharted games (Pittsburgh level, I'm looking at you).

 

[Jegsimmons]

I know right? there's no sport in it! I mean, shit, people crowd up and run for the same exit so i'll i have to do is keep stabbing or shooting and even when one on one unarmed it only take 75 pounds of force to collapse a throat or even pocket sand. Do people not understand the importance of being inshape and learning how to fight?
And don't even get me started on the how easy it is to enter city hall and-

*reads rest fo the post*

oh im sorry i was thinking of something way different.
NEVER MIND, NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!!

 

[DjinnFor]

And Yahtzee demonstrates yet again that he entirely misses the point of violence in The Last of Us. Case in point, he thinks that Joel is meant to be a likeable everyman character.

In order to demonstrate that the developers failed horribly at their task of making Joel out to be a pure-hearted and divinely sanctioned protagonist, Yahtzee references what is essentially the very first thing we see post-apocalypse Joel and his partner do, which is go hunt down a fellow gangster/smuggler who stole from the pair and brutally execute him.

Apparently, the idea that the developers set the stage with that piece to establish that Joel was NOT supposed to be a likeable everyman completely slipped his mind.

 

[EXos]

And Yahtzee demonstrates yet again that he entirely misses the point of violence in The Last of Us. Case in point, he thinks that Joel is meant to be a likeable everyman character.

I'll challenge your unfounded projection with my own:

Yahtzee demonstrates he got a firm grasp on the points of violence in The Last of Us. He doesn't think that Joel is meant to be a likeable everyman character. He's bothered by the fact that the Killing in the serious setting without anything changing.
Joel starts as an A-hole, is an A-hole in the middle and an A-hole at the end. Nothing learned nothing gained.

The walking dead was better.

Now prove me wrong.

----

I've seen several people saying that Joel wasn't meant to be related to. Then two posts after that there is someone that says he is.

In short Yahtzee didn't like Joel as a character in this setting and that is probably why he didn't enjoy the game.
The violence just got him doing a little re-evaluating of the use of violence.

 

[kael013]

Erm...yes he is. That's the entire point of the prologue section. It's a fairly short sequence, but crucial for exactly the reason that you described. Even if you don't think the sequence was effective (for some reason; it's one of the best scripted sequences in a recent game, IMHO), please don't pretend that they didn't try.

Unless, of course, you haven't played or watched the game at all and are relying on the incomplete information Yahtzee provided and out-of-context video clips to make your evaluation. That does seem to be going around on this thread.

Oh. I haven't played or watched gameplay videos (until just now), but I had watched a friend play. During that I asked him how far in he was and he said he was at the beginning - but he was obviously past the prologue and apparently didn't feel the need to mention it. So I went back and watched a walkthrough of the prologue (and up to Robert's death) and it kinda blows my argument out of the water.

That said I'm still on Yahtzee's side. There were parts where the game presented killing as the only option when others were available. Case in point: the guard in the beginning. He verbally threatens you. He ends up dead (he didn't even have a weapon that I could see, his friend did). The protagonists could have just wounded him, but instead they kill him. Why? Because he might have sought revenge by sending thugs after them (or coming after them himself)? His boss tried that and it didn't work. Another example: Later you run across two of Robert's guards on patrol. It's a stealth section where the patrolling guards are walking [i/]away[/i] from you. They get killed. Why? The first guard had buddies and may have been a threat, but these guys were [i/]leaving without knowing you were there[/i]. The game could have easily allowed us to let them go, but it had us kill them instead. And all for a stupid tutorial about stealth kills from behind. If they had put the guards in a place where it was absolutely necessary to kill them in order to proceed I could have let it slide, but it didn't. That right there cemented my loathing of the "everyman heroes" this game had (I actually wanted to kill Tess myself long before that to be honest. She was a pain). Then when our protagonists where threatened with death I was supposed to care? They killed people for just getting in their way(!) so I saw it as just deserts (desserts? I can never remember...). Plus, the world is presented as a place where "kill or be killed" was the top law, so why should I care when the nature of the world temporarily turned against the protagonists? In a serious character drama when you hate every side it just doesn't work.

All that just because the game forced you to kill. That's what I think Yahtzee was getting at.

 

[IronMit]

In a world where humanity is on the verge of annihilation, the idea that human lives would be even less valuable then they are in the real world is a worrying thought.

Why is this bad?-It's supposed to be worrying. They explained why society ended up this way. Not buying the explanation or arguing it's not convincing enough is one thing but to pretend they didn't even try to address it is misleading or completely missing the point.
And what a stupid argument anyway, for example during a war when law and order fall apart crime increases. Murder, theft, rape...criminals, opportunists, desperate people don't sit around contemplating the value of life.
See Mad max, reign of fire, fallout, Game of thrones, book of eli, three kings or any actual war in the middle east.

Joel himself single highhandedly kills more people than the infected that are supposedly the single greatest problem facing them in that time.

First of all the writers are aware he kills a lot of people, it's addressed, even worse Joel admits to being like those bandits. So killing bandits are the least of your moral worries.
As too the amount of people killed; That's called ludonarrative dissonance. I also have a problem with this in all games but it is particularly jarring here; So many other steps are done to show realism -in crafting, resources, healing, combat that it's a shame area's of the game have hordes of human enemies.
Counting the human enemies and saying Joel killed exactly '100' doesn't really reflect the story- you have to take into account that 99% of games use this trope to pad gametime& pacing.
Yes it's still a major flaw in this game/story and should rightly be addressed. but how does Yahtzee's positively reviewed Bioshock infinite get a free pass, when you are shooting authorities in the face. Or Spec-ops:the line (which I and Yahtzee both like) where you kill half of Dubai. Oh that's addressed in the narrative and themes you say? well so is TLOU.

Yet on he goes, executing people that appear to be innocent in the first 20 minutes.

Have you played the game. Joel doesn't execute anyone in a cutscene until the half way point. It takes 20 mins for Tess to shoot the first guy in the head. and when they finally get their man it is Tess who kills him again, but not before explaining to the player why she killed him. Moments earlier an official executes someone on the street. It's purposely done this way so you are introduced into this brutal world without having to initially kill anyone.

What this does is absolutely destroy the credibility of the world, and lessens the impact of the single most important point in the narrative; the infection.

I think the infection is the least important part of the entire story. The infection is just the setting, it is what sets up everything to be post-apocolyptic. There could of been actual zombies, or dragons, or the aftermath of a war. That same character driven story could work.

Naughty Dog wholeheartedly wants us to identify with Joel as the guardian angel of Ellie, the protector of the most important person to the world, who would do anything necessary to keep her alive because it's 'what we would do'.

Not every story is going to hit everyone's sweetspot. Something like 90/95% people identified with it or were able to emphasise.The other 5/10 could not. Seems about right. (meta-critic isn't the most accurate of sources but still)

I don't know about you, but shafting the entire human race because of the actions of a few in the American South seems like an ignorant and selfish act.

Well yeah, that's what we are supposed to discuss after finishing the game. Everyone has a different opinion.
Are you a parent yet...well when your 14 year old girl is the cure for mankind tell me how easy it is to send her to her death.

And this entire argument (maybe not you but other people) of the protagonist needing to be likeable or needs a ridiculous arc is lost on me.
In a story there's often a protagonist with a certain personality with motivations in whatever setting. It's interesting to see what happens, it doesn't have to be good, we personally don't have to like the decisions, as long as it's logical to the character


What should be being discussed is weather this can be relevant for games. Can controlling someone that is as awful as Tony Montana work in a character driven video game? (GTA don't count)
Not omg his not likeable (I'm going to ignore the fact his not supposed to be) so I don't like him and the game is bad.

And the reason killing is cheap is because it's easy to do. video game Stories are often made to somehow justify violence...not the other way round.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZM2jXyvGOc

 

[Bucketface]

The killing people in these games is not exactly what is being called out in these games, it's the sheer quantity of people you kill to the point that by the end of the game the protagonist is a mass murderer having killed so many it numbers in the hundreds.
The amount of killing in both Boishock Infinte & The Last of Us feels out of place (it is of course the easiest way to crate an obstacle to be overcome but it's a archaic piece of gaming that seems to persist) i can't see how either Ellie or Elizabeth could possibly sympathies with Booker or Joel. both BI & TLoU really needed alternative solutions to killing everyone that becomes an obstacle. They were brilliant games & i enjoyed the stories they told despite this problem but it is a problem in games like these. in COD or BF it's a core part of the game & makes sense given the setting, i can't say the same for bioshock infinite or the last of us, these games should have made us feel torn every time we killed. I'll leave a link to an Extra Credits episode that that covers similar problems http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzkS0mt3B50

 

[K12]

Snip

The point of any punishment including life and the death penalty for a crime isn't revenge, rehabilitation, victim compensation, or even removing a dangerous and/or disruptive element from society, despite what the people who are responsible for doling out these punishments tell everybody. The point of the punishment is prevention, it's about scaring people so shitless about being punished that they won't even consider performing a crime, much less actually do it. If tomorrow society collapsed and punishments like jail or the death penalty could no longer happen, despite what those same people would say otherwise if asked prior, the vast majority of people would start stealing everything that wasn't nailed down, raping, and killing everybody else (many post apocalyptic games like The Last of Us are built on this point). It's the FEAR of punishment that allows society to even exist to begin with, to avoid descending into anarchy. Sure, many people will be falsely convicted and punished, including being executed, but this is an unavoidable cost of something that society can't function without.

The point of the punishment isn't prevention because if it were then the statistics regarding the death penalty would mean that nobody ever used one. There is strong evidence that introducing the death penalty INCREASES the murder rate it doesn't decrease it.

Having the death penalty doesn't seem to make any real difference to the kind of people who commit cold blooded murder because it doesn't seem to stop them. It also promotes the idea that killing is a legitimate way of getting rid of a problem.

It's about revenge and vindication. "This person was a irredeemable bad and there's nothing we could have done for them, their crimes are nobody's fault but their own".

I don't know about you but no situation would ever make me go around raping people, I would steal to survive and possibly even kill for defense (though I don't think I'd be able to make myself do it if I had time to think about it) but rape doesn't get you anything. The law isn't the thing stopping me from raping, killing and stealing I simply don't want to!