Kremlin Leak?

[Agema]

Isn't that Zontar? I remember him mentioning he has a Jewish grandmother.

Ohh... yes I think that strikes a chord, him saying something about being Jewish.

Although he wasn't a patch on some of the guys from back around the early 2010s sort of era. They were genuinely fascists, in some cases self-admittedly.

 

[Agema]

I just wish they didn't have a mirror in centrists who rapidly switch between hysterical raving about fascism, the Big Lie, and so on... and then go on to treat bipartisanship as a virtue in various ways. It is an apparent dissociative disorder that leads to some rather ugly conclusions about the United States as a whole and the nature of what is considered normal.

Bipartisanship is a pragmatic approach which is a sensible thing to do under the right circumstances. In the current USA, it's nothing more than farting into the breeze.

When the Republicans uncritically portray the entire Democratic Party as "extreme left", they are telling the country that bipartisanship is dead, and it's their way or no way. I don't mind Democrats making noises about bipartisanship and seeking it where possible, as it is appropriate to their image for being reasonable and seeking consensus, but any Democrat planning on it to get policy through is a fucking moron.

 

[Baffle]

What the hell do I have to do with it? Victimization? Are you just a computer with a list of keywords to spew out? Use your brain instead of just throwing buzzwords at me.

No, it's true. Most right-wingers seem very thin-skinned and have a chip on their shoulder. Always someone else's fault etc. Many things *are* someone else's fault, but to me they never seem to have much sense of personal responsibility.

 

[Hawki]

No, it's true. Most right-wingers seem very thin-skinned and have a chip on their shoulder. Always someone else's fault etc. Many things *are* someone else's fault, but to me they never seem to have much sense of personal responsibility.

Frankly, here and in real life, that's an attitude that isn't confined to one side of the spectrum.

 

[Baffle]

Frankly, here and in real life, that's an attitude that isn't confined to one side of the spectrum.

I dunno about that. Left-wingers generally aim to improve things for others and have a stronger sense of a community that they contribute to. There's an element of personal responsibility there.

 

[Hawki]

I dunno about that. Left-wingers generally aim to improve things for others and have a stronger sense of a community that they contribute to. There's an element of personal responsibility there.

Well first, I'd say "stronger sense of community" is the opposite of personal responsibility. The right generally likes to emphasize personal responsibility, the left tends to emphasize the group (in the broadest terms). I don't think, in principle, any side has an inherent monopoly on virtue, though that might depend on what country you're talking about.

As for chips on shoulders, well, won't comment on real life, but just look at the stuff here. People skew way, WAY left here (you can look at the result of the 8 values thread I did), and it's got no shortage of positions I've found...eyebrow raising, to say the least. Ranging from, but not limited to, using the US military to remove all Jews from Israel, to completely disbanding the police, to your usual communist/socialist/Marxist schtick.

 

[Buyetyen]

The right generally likes to emphasize personal responsibility,

In an empty platitude kind of way maybe. "Personal responsibility" is more often just code for, "Fuck you, I got mine."

 

[Hawki]

In an empty platitude kind of way maybe. "Personal responsibility" is more often just code for, "Fuck you, I got mine."

You're not entirely wrong, but...well, I'll use an example.

I forget the details, but there was this woman who sued McDonalds for 'making' her obese. It was a farce. No-one forced her to eat at McDonalds, no-one forced her to eat so much that she became obese.

Clearly, personal responsibility starts somewhere. It doesn't cover everything, because circumstance and environment start somewhere as well. For instance, if you were a child who witnessed your parents committing domestic violence, you're more likely to engage in domestic violence yourself. So on one hand, circumstance gave you a shitty hand in life. On the other, that doesn't excuse your own violence.

 

[Buyetyen]

You're not entirely wrong, but...well, I'll use an example.

I forget the details, but there was this woman who sued McDonalds for 'making' her obese. It was a farce. No-one forced her to eat at McDonalds, no-one forced her to eat so much that she became obese.

Clearly, personal responsibility starts somewhere. It doesn't cover everything, because circumstance and environment start somewhere as well. For instance, if you were a child who witnessed your parents committing domestic violence, you're more likely to engage in domestic violence yourself. So on one hand, circumstance gave you a shitty hand in life. On the other, that doesn't excuse your own violence.

So what you're really talking about is accountability, something that Republicans have made pretty clear they are against.

 

[Hawki]

So what you're really talking about is accountability, something that Republicans have made pretty clear they are against.

As I said above, when I talk about "the left" and "the right," that depends a lot on which country I'm talking about (though in the context of these forums, it'll usually be the US, since that's where most topics land). And having watched the US devolve into a shitshow over the last half decade, I'm going to make a few things very clear.

1: Trump is a criminal (I don't mean that as hyperbole, I mean that literally)

2: The GOP has gone off the deep end. I don't doubt that there are genuine, principled conservatives/Republicans, both in the party and out, but talking about the party itself...no. Just no. It's frankly gone insane. Again, not hyperbole, the GOP is, among other things, a party with no respect for democracy at this point.

Clearly I'm not as far left as a lot of people here, but that's my position on the issue. Glad as I am not to have lived in the US shitshow in question, that doesn't mean I've enjoyed watching it, and not only because I've got colleagues in real-life who've immigrated from the US.

 

[Baffle]

Well first, I'd say "stronger sense of community" is the opposite of personal responsibility.

I'm talking more about grass-roots community initiatives, whereby people collectively take responsibility for improving something, but without the (noted above) 'fuck you I got mine'.

As for chips on shoulders, well, won't comment on real life, but just look at the stuff here.

I think we should look at it in real life. Why do you think so many people vote for right-wing parties when doing so is against their own interests? Because they've been told their lot in life (which they are unhappy with) is someone else's fault, and right-wing parties are going to punish that group in some way.

 

[Agema]

Well first, I'd say "stronger sense of community" is the opposite of personal responsibility. The right generally likes to emphasize personal responsibility, the left tends to emphasize the group (in the broadest terms). I don't think, in principle, any side has an inherent monopoly on virtue, though that might depend on what country you're talking about.

I'm talking more about grass-roots community initiatives, whereby people collectively take responsibility for improving something, but without the (noted above) 'fuck you I got mine'.

At a certain level and probably the most commonly understood one, personal responsibility is a key principle of both a collectivist or individualist society. Even in the most collectivist society, individuals have duties. In fact, personal responsibility is just a important part of being an adult and a good citizen. Personal responsibility at the level of individualism-collectivism more represents a form of (chiefly economic) self-reliance and duties to others. Personal responsibility (in the former sense of self-ownership) is a strong moral theme within individualism in a way it is not always in collectivism because it reflects the responsibility necessary to make individual freedom function smoothly as a society.

One might argue a potential conflict between personal responsibility (taking ownership for one's actions) and personal responsibility (self-reliance): because the minute someone does something wrong, it is more heavily in their best interest to fob the blame off onto someone else.

As for chips on shoulders, well, won't comment on real life, but just look at the stuff here. People skew way, WAY left here (you can look at the result of the 8 values thread I did), and it's got no shortage of positions I've found...

Implicit in that claim is that the 8 values thing is accurate. I think it is not, and it skews its results heavily to the left.

This could just be a lack of fine tuning - note in that thread my criticism of the question design that creates ambiguity of understanding. But it could also be because of the programming of the values. Someone has to assign how various questions score towards certain values. If you ask three people - right, centre and left - to classify things as right or left wing, you will almost certainly find the left wing person classifies more things as right (because they will tend to view the centre as right) and vice versa of the right wing person.

This forum is almost certainly left-of-centre in terms of wider society, as a natural result of demographic factors for who ends up on a computer gaming forum.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

No, it's true. Most right-wingers seem very thin-skinned and have a chip on their shoulder. Always someone else's fault etc. Many things *are* someone else's fault, but to me they never seem to have much sense of personal responsibility.

What does right wingers having a chip on their shoulders have to do with me? And are you fucking serious? You think people on the left side of the spectrum aren't doing the same damn thing? You don't think someone like Marx who complained about the bourgeoisie and rich and sitting on his ass and never working a day in his life while making the 19th century's version of blog posts about it isn't an example of someone blamming everything on someone else? Don't give me that bullshit.

 

[Baffle]

What does right wingers having a chip on their shoulders have to do with me? And are you fucking serious? You think people on the left side of the spectrum aren't doing the same damn thing? You don't think someone like Marx who complained about the bourgeoisie and rich and sitting on his ass and never working a day in his life while making the 19th century's version of blog posts about it isn't an example of someone blamming everything on someone else? Don't give me that bullshit.

lol, I couldn't even walk straight with a chip that big, and I've got a gold medal in walking straight.

 

[Avnger]

What does right wingers having a chip on their shoulders have to do with me? And are you fucking serious? You think people on the left side of the spectrum aren't doing the same damn thing? You don't think someone like Marx who complained about the bourgeoisie and rich and sitting on his ass and never working a day in his life while making the 19th century's version of blog posts about it isn't an example of someone blamming everything on someone else? Don't give me that bullshit.

You're doing an amazing job of proving his point. Please tell me this is some ingenious performance art.

 

[Agema]

You don't think someone like Marx who complained about the bourgeoisie and rich and sitting on his ass and never working a day in his life...

Actually, he worked as an author and journalist: although he was chronically poor and through some periods did depend on charitable contributions from his friends.

 

[Worgen]

Trump might have conceded that something by the name of Covid-19 indeed existed. But the Covid that actually existed, the Covid that was both very dangerous and which he was consistently downplaying he did call a hoax. Not at all helped by statement such as that it would ''magically disappear in the spring''

In ''this is their new hoax'' the ''this'' refers to covid as something very dangerous that Trump is underestimating. That Trump might have conceded a friendly neighborhood version of covid existed doesn't really detract from this. He didn't want to see covid for the danger it truly was.

Did he ever call it covid? I thought he only called it the china virus, well, he at least mostly called it that.

 

[Agema]

Did he ever call it covid? I thought he only called it the china virus, well, he at least mostly called it that.

No - he was trying to be on best buddy terms with China at the start. It was only later when he realised (probably connected to his failure to control it) that he'd be better off turning both barrels on China instead.

 

[Worgen]

No - he was trying to be on best buddy terms with China at the start. It was only later when he realised (probably connected to his failure to control it) that he'd be better off turning both barrels on China instead.

Yeah, but for him best buddies just means calling it the 'wuhan virus' instead.

 

[Baffle]

You're doing an amazing job of proving his point. Please tell me this is some ingenious performance art.

I feel like <famously stupid character> setting a neon orange snare for a rabbit and coming back and finding I've caught a bear that has nevertheless managed to brain itself on a tree trying to remove the neon orange string around its foot, but I'm also allergic to bear meat so it feels like I've just done it for fun. I dunno though, that could be any one of <list of famously stupid characters>.