Kremlin Leak?

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
6,468
923
118
Country
USA
Could you point to a Democrat doing this?
Discounting Belgium, by official figures, effectively the only developed country that did worse than the USA is Italy and most have casualty rates around 50-70% of the USA. It's an abysmal performance from what would claim itself to be the greatest nation on Earth. And I think we all remember last year, and the abject chaos of Trump's federal government, centring around the highly erratic president himself.
I know that you know as well as I do that official figures are not the same from nation to nation. The US notably counts everyone who dies and tests positive as a covid death, and even those who couldn't be tested but had potentially covid caused deaths. While that doesn't mean we know if deaths are over or under counted in any meaningful sense, we can say pretty confident that it's more relative to other nations whose covid statistics aren't reported the same way. Like, Belgium is way up there because they reported excess deaths over average as their covid death-toll, and nobody else is doing that. The UK isn't way up there because the UK decided partway to define a covid death as a death within 4 weeks of a laboratory confirmed positive covid case (with exception for those with covid explicitly mentioned on the death certificate). A fair number of smaller countries just pretended to not have any deaths for quite a while.

You're ignoring the dishonesty of nations around the world because you want to dunk on Trump, but you have to know your country in particular is worse with this pandemic.
Sure, but then you said some complaints were just propaganda, on the basis that the accused transgressors said there's nothing to see here.
The complaints aren't propaganda.

The complaint: CBP holding facilities are too cold to stay in, particularly for people dressed for warm weather who don't have blankets. Fair and reasonable complaint.
The propaganda: CBP puts migrants in ice-boxes to torture people. Exaggerated nonsense.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,962
118
I know that you know as well as I do that official figures are not the same from nation to nation.
...
You're ignoring the dishonesty of nations around the world because you want to dunk on Trump, but you have to know your country in particular is worse with this pandemic.
1) Well, it's really funny how you Yanks want to throw at me "Your country did worse" as if I really gave the same patriotic shit you do. I really don't. And I am one of the first to say my country's government's response to covid was very poor and error-strewn.

2) There's nothing "honest" the USA is doing compared to other "dishonest" countries. One might (and should) question China's implausibly low figures. Russia's official figures are garbage (although Russia semi-admits the reality is much worse). But the vast majority of Western nations have measuring criteria which are reasonable, and likely to provide comparable figures. Again, this is some weird jingoism you're showing.

3) We can also look at other measures, such as excess death measures: these are of course problematic (and liable to be less accurate), but they are mostly consistent with officially recorded covid-19 deaths. Countries that fared relatively poorly generally have high excess deaths (2020): England & Wales, 10.5%; USA, 12.9%, Italy, 8.7%, Spain, 12.9%, France, 6.7%. Those with better covid-19 figures are generally lower: Netherlands, 7.2%; Germany, 3.3%; Greece, 4.9%; Canada, 6.0%, Denmark -4.3% (!).

There is pretty much no way of getting around the fact that the USA was one of the worst hit countries in terms of deaths. You just have to fucking deal with it, and accept that maybe your beloved ex-president was in numerous ways an absolute pile of crap who was not fit to assume that office.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,241
3,062
118
Country
United States of America
There is pretty much no way of getting around the fact that the USA was one of the worst hit countries in terms of deaths. You just have to fucking deal with it, and accept that maybe your beloved ex-president was in numerous ways an absolute pile of crap who was not fit to assume that office.
Perhaps he'll be able to console himself in the knowledge that our current president will be much the same as COVID spikes upward again
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
6,468
923
118
Country
USA
1) Well, it's really funny how you Yanks want to throw at me "Your country did worse" as if I really gave the same patriotic shit you do.
It's not funny. You picked the fight. You dismiss my comments as jingoistic or patriotic, but you're the one picking the fight. You're the one using measures that you know are questionable just to make the point about the country you want to look bad failing by those measures. If you really don't care, why are you picking the fight?
3) We can also look at other measures, such as excess death measures: these are of course problematic (and liable to be less accurate), but they are mostly consistent with officially recorded covid-19 deaths. Countries that fared relatively poorly generally have high excess deaths (2020): England & Wales, 10.5%; USA, 12.9%, Italy, 8.7%, Spain, 12.9%, France, 6.7%. Those with better covid-19 figures are generally lower: Netherlands, 7.2%; Germany, 3.3%; Greece, 4.9%; Canada, 6.0%, Denmark -4.3% (!).
And if you take the European Union as a whole, the excess mortality rate is like 12%. If you look at other places in the world, it can go a higher. I'm not saying that the USA is the best and fared the best and everyone else sucks, I'm saying your "third worst in the world" line is complete BS and you know it as well as I do. The US fared about as well as the average based on the circumstances. New Zealand is an island. Denmark has significantly fewer people in it than New York City. These places get to be statistical outliers. A nation as large, diverse, and interconnected to the world as the US is quite predictably going to end up near the average. I know you understand this, but for some reason you still excitedly cling to whatever evidence you can mock the US with. It's not a good look.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,962
118
It's not funny. You picked the fight. You dismiss my comments as jingoistic or patriotic, but you're the one picking the fight. You're the one using measures that you know are questionable just to make the point about the country you want to look bad failing by those measures. If you really don't care, why are you picking the fight?
Because the USA's figures are plainly really, really poor. This cannot help but reflect its governmental response to the pandemic to some degree.

And if you take the European Union as a whole, the excess mortality rate is like 12%.
The economically poorest state in the USA has a GDP/capita of about $40,000. There are nearly 20 EU states that are poorer than that, and half a dozen have a GDP per capita less than half that. Remember the old days of the Cold War? Most of those ex-communist countries are now in the EU, and they are significantly underdeveloped. Unsurprisingly, that's also where the highest covid death rates in Europe mostly are.

If you look at other places in the world, it can go a higher. I'm not saying that the USA is the best and fared the best and everyone else sucks, I'm saying your "third worst in the world" line is complete BS and you know it as well as I do.
I explicitly compared the USA to other developed countries and It is just dishonest for you to pretend otherwise. It's performance as a developed country is easily amongst the worst.

A nation as large, diverse, and interconnected to the world as the US is quite predictably going to end up near the average. I know you understand this, but for some reason you still excitedly cling to whatever evidence you can mock the US with. It's not a good look.
Well, you want to make this about the world, but the world average is ~50 deaths per 100,000 people, which means the USA is four times worse than the average. At least if you want to restrict it to developed countries, it looks less bad. But it's still way above average badness compared to Western Europe, never mind all the other developed nations (Israel, SK, Japan, Canada, etc.)
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,962
118
No, no it isn't.
Sure, probably not. Some countries almost certainly have heavily underreported because they don't have the administrative capacity to accurately report. On the other hand, for various reasons (like, low proportions of elderly), their casualty rates have probably been relatively modest anyway. But the point remains that the global average is likely still below that of the developed world average.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,241
3,062
118
Country
United States of America
I didn't say it was pro-Biden. It's anti-America. You've been trained to see record numbers of people trying to reach America as an American fault.
If you want to know why people think that, reading this is probably a good starting point:
Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent
Eduardo Galeano
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
6,468
923
118
Country
USA
If you want to know why people think that, reading this is probably a good starting point:
Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent
Eduardo Galeano
I mean, at least you didn't post a tweet. 5 points to Slytherin.