Lawyer: California Law Could Destroy Videogame Industry

[elvor0]

I STILL dont understand how I why this is a big deal, to me as a UK citizen this stinks of "MY FIRST AMMENDMENT RIGHTS DAMN IT!" I dont see why making it illegal to sell games to underage people is going to make any difference, surely you can't buy an 18(or 17 in the US) movie there? Why is the industry suddenly going to collapse because minors can't buy them? Just order them online or whatever, the sales are not effected in any other part of the world so why should it suddenly change in the US?

No body is going to act any differnt, the anti video game parents and politicions are not going to change their argument, the people who buy M games are not going to stop buying them, stores are unlikely to stop selling them for loss of profit, and all that will happen is kids are not allowed to buy M games, which is how it should be, because if they are allowed, what the bloody hell the point of the M rating?

I've read all the arguments on both sides, and I've tried my hardest to understand how this is going to "destroy the industry" and just going by everything I've read I still dont see how it will, to me it just feels like BOTH sides are straw manning, the anti crowd saying video games are harmful to minors, and the other side saying "This breaks my rights!" and some how a bizzare entitlement to being able to buy them underage with no discernable reason to argue, I just don't get it.

Movies are rated and they still get praised, and eventually so will video games, they're just going through a phase, the same as DnD, rock music and books, and none of those industried collapsed when age ratings were introduced, (ok not on dnd and books, obviously) but the movie industry never collapsed when it was rated did it? I dont see why publishers would suddenly stop making M games, or stores stop selling them because it would be illegal to do so to minors, they shouldnt be selling them to minors in the first place, because they are MATURE products, INTENDED for a mature audience.

 

[ShadowKirby]

Let me post what I posted in an earlier topic:

It's great to see that a bunch of you guys are okay with california politicians deciding what is a violent game (because that's what the law is about) and removing the medium's 1st Amendment protection.

It's great to see that a bunch of you guys are okay with california politicians putting violent games (which, under the new law, will include a lot more than the currently rated M games. They will be calling the shots, remember?) under the same category as porn, alcohol and tobacco. Yep, games whit violence in them, as damaging to kids 0-18(or is it 21?) as a potential lung cancer.

It's great to see that a bunch of you guys are okay with california politicians saying that games are less than movies, books and music. That those three can be protected speech, but video games have no speech, they are just some dumb products that say nothing of interest. Bioshock? Same as porn. GTA4? Like smoking 4 pack a day. Fallout 3? May as well just give a 40 oz. to an 11 years old.


It's not only about business. Who cares if retailers stop selling violent games (I say it again, not just M-rated games, everything that california says is violent) or not. It's about the perception of the medium. Do you really want the medium to free of protection? First they say it's too violent, then, the medium not being protected because it doesn't have anything to say anyway, they will say it passes "unamericain" values to kids. Maybe it's a bit of a doomsday scenario. It's not like america ever censored medias [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hays_code] right?


So you decide guys. Are games an expressive medium that should have the same protection that movies, books and music have, or should they be like porn, alcohol and cigarettes, products without anything to say.

It is more than business guys, it's about the public perception of the medium. Some of you may be okay being seen enjoying violent games like some addict enjoys is porn, but I'd rather be seen as someone who enjoys violent games like he enjoys violent movies who happened to win Oscars like No Country for Old Man, The Departed or The Lord of the Ring.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

If this law passes, I'm moving to Canada. I hear the government is less stupid up there.

Not on gaming. Just about everything else, our government sucks at however.

 

[matsugawa]

First off the bat who the fuck made California's word law, like come on if this somehow passes then there will be no duke Nukem no more battlefield and no more funny mindless games that only were made was for the crack of it like god of war. I hope to christ this doesn't come to pass if so then say good buy to our most basest human rights!

I mean seriously why does this one state out of all the other 50 or 51 states has the last words wupty fucking do its the land where all the celeb's are and where the ex-terminator runs for office like come on.

The saddest part is the law doesn't need to pass in order to set precedent:

A few years earlier, California became the stage for another lawsuit that would have national impact: Cellular providers' early termination fees. The suit was against Sprint (and only Sprint), stating that charging people 200 dollars to close out a cell plan was unconstitutional. Nothing came of the lawsuit; it was practically laughed out of court. Despite that, however, the other cell providers (including the one I worked customer service for at the time) began to adopt new policies about early termination fees, namely staggering the amount of the fee the farther along into your contract you were (200, then 150 after a year, 100 with six months left, and so on). As you can imagine, cell customers the nation over were very happy about this (at least, until they found out it was only for NEW customers, with no grandfathering policy for existing ones ;P ).

A pending lawsuit in one state against one company led to other companies the nation over acting in response to the worst possible outcome. Retailers getting fined 1000 dollars for the sale of M-rated games to minors wouldn't have to be a federal mandate to exist. There just have to be enough people who want and believe in such a policy for it to have an effect.

 

[KiruTheMant]

Whats up 1984? I thought you happened sixteen years ago.

Twenty seven years ago. Sixteen Years ago was '93.

OP: NO!
I support the first amendment, and as such, this law must not pass!

16 years ago was 1984 o_o

Its '10 buddy.

 

[Romidude]

So, videogames won't be considered a work of art, but Beverly Hills Chiahuah(being a movie) still is?

 

[steverivers]

As for less games, I'm not exactly bothered; 9/10 stuff churned out nowadays is shovelware designed to fill the pockets of certain developers who can't be arsed to be original anymore.

God that is so true.

Thats capitalism for ya, though. When the world boils down to just money, rarely does it invoke creativity.

 

[Koroviev]

The irony in all this is overwhelming. It would only be worse if Arnold had once been a fucking porn star. As it is, he was naked in one of the Terminator movies.

And I'm sure this whole debacle will do wonders for our budget.

Glad to see his stupid ass leave office.

 

[wasalp]

california sur is getting alot of attention from the internet, what with this and prop 19.

 

[Cmd. Shepard]

Should the law get passed, it won't just factor into the US, but it will create a ripple effect that will resonate most places in the world (except Asia because the Japanese market is quite substantial).

We basically have to hold on now and pray that the courts decide in our favour.

 

[Koroviev]

Now, Corporations are allowed to represent themselves yes? So why doesn't the entire fuckingindustry make a stand? Activision and EA might be evil, but they are big, and they are powerful. Get gaming corporations and businesses to group together to fight this bill.

I agree. If there was ever a time I wanted to back big business, it's now. Screw politicians and their moral crusading. It's just a cover for the fact that they don't accomplish jack shit for the most part.

 

[wasalp]

-snip-

its simply because politicians from alot states will start passing bills restricting videogames because they need a scapegoat to attract the attention of the voters away from all the other problems they have.

 

[Dfskelleton]

What does it mean by "Minors"? Is it talking about little kids or anyone under 18? I know that's probably been specified, but what age does the term "Minor" apply? If people my age (I'm between 13-16, I don't like giving my exact age on the internet. Paranoia, but whatever.) are considered minors, then the justice system should be pawnched in the head.

But if we lose indie developers like Frictional, I will go insane.

 

[elvor0]

-snip-

its simply because politicians from alot states will start passing bills restricting videogames because they need a scapegoat to attract the attention of the voters away from all the other problems they have.

Surely this is just speculation though? I mean we dont ban games in britain, and most other countries dont either, the only other countries to do so far are German, which does so because they;re still trying to get away from the Nazi stereotype, China because they're all batshit insane and dicatorial and Australia, because one man who is also batshit insane is in charge, we dont censor things here in Britain, and we've had laws on movies and video games since forever, and America and Britain are reasonably similar at least culturaly, I dont know, I just don't see other states or polititions suddenly starting to attempt to completely censor video games to get votes, when they can easily go on about Taxes or WMDs or terrorists.

 

[GLo Jones]

This is all incredibly exaggerated, but I guess he of all people should be biased.

 

[Gxas]

Whats up 1984? I thought you happened sixteen years ago.

Twenty seven years ago. Sixteen Years ago was '93.

OP: NO!
I support the first amendment, and as such, this law must not pass!

<.<

Math is apparently not my strong suit when I'm pissed off...

Thank you for that.

Gah. The person correcting you can't count either. -_-'

it's 2010.

2010 - 1984 = 26

Although I guess that's close enough.

But I know this because I'm 27 and was born in 1982. (that only works because of how late into the year I was born though. There will be a brief period this year when I'm 28)

WE'RE ALL SO ANGRY THAT NONE OF US CAN COUNT CORRECTLY!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you though

 

[Charli]

Or at least make it as small and shitty as it is in the UK...Definitely do not want.

AMERICA, DO THE RIGHT THING, DON'T DESTROY WHAT IS ONE OF YOUR BEST INDUSTRIES

 

[Therumancer]

You know I kind of want this law to actually get passed. Then once it does all those paranoid idiots might actually shut about once they realise that absolutely nothing has changed. Ah hell who am I kidding they will still try to blame the law even though it doesnt actually change anything.

In fact it may actually help the industry. People can no longer simply blame video games for violence among children they will have to blame the parents because it will be illegal for the kids to actually buy the games.

I think your misunderstanding the central issue here.

The crux of this matter isn't just about video games, but the goverment being given the abillity to regulate speech. Controlling things like cigarettes and alcohol is regulation on behavior rather than expression and always fell under the goverment purview. Getting the abillity to regulate media the same way is a big deal because it establishes precedent for the goverment to violate our constitutional right to free speech.

This isn't the kind of issue that is going to have the sky fall on people's heads and cause a massive differance overnight. Rather it's the kind of thing that is going to snowball, it's going to start out as a little pebble sized spec of snow that people are going to say "oh see, it really didn't do much" but as time goes on it's going to get bigger, and we're going to see the goverment getting it's hands into more and more aspects of the media due to this precedent.

When it comes to the games industry, there is some hyberbole there. I expect we will see a lot of what is predicted to happen transpire, but not overnight. See, if the goverment can hold retailers and/or game companies criminally liable for the product, this is going to make it so that retailers and game companies aren't going to want to take the risks of something they produced getting into the hands of kids so they can be prosecuted. Effectively the blame for Jr. getting an "M" rated game ceases to be on the parents not doing their job, and becomes the fault of the game industry. Kid has a game? Well that means some poor gamestop Clerk is probably losing his job at a minimum, while the store pays a fine. Depending on how it goes, you could see liability all the way up the chain to the guys who produced the thing. All of that will be hashed out in court battles, and it will take time.

Right now the only recourse the goverment really has is the abillity to review games individually and ban them if hey are "obscene and without any redeeming value"... effectively becoming porn. An impractical way of policing things, which is why the goverment wants precedents that allows it to wield a much more effective punk hammer.


This is a bigger deal than I think you realize, however your correct that I doubt there will be any sudden catastrophe. The catasrophe is likely to creep up after the ruling.

-

Now, to the other people argueing this point who thin it's a big deal, I again raise the point: How big a deal do you *REALLY* think it is. How many of you plan to take up arms against the goverment should this law pass? Anyone planning on walking into a federal building and letting fly? Sniping cops off the side of the highway? Making runs to assasinate politicians?

Understand something, the power of citizens is totally contingent on our right to keep and bear arms. Things like the civil liberties movement were won through shows of force. Right now gamers are not taken seriously because we have yet to assemble anything more impressive than an internet petition from what I've seen. We haven't even performed a non-violent protest to show our potential force yield like the things Martin Luthor King Jr. did.

Right now I think the bottom line is that all gamers are going to do is whine, and the fact that people realize that is one of the reasons why this is quite probably going to be an uphill battle.

All points about guns and violence aside, changes come about by doing things, and taking risks, even if that's cuffing yourself to a fence and getting carted away by the police once they get enough wire cutters.

It's possible we'll win this one just by going through the supreme court, but we might not, especially if we're not being taken seriously. At that point it's all about what we do, not how many impassioned messages we write, and how many internet petitions we might send out.

 

[Dfskelleton]

Now, Corporations are allowed to represent themselves yes? So why doesn't the entire fuckingindustry make a stand? Activision and EA might be evil, but they are big, and they are powerful. Get gaming corporations and businesses to group together to fight this bill.

I agree. If there was ever a time I wanted to back big business, it's now. Screw politicians and their moral crusading. It's just a cover for the fact that they don't accomplish jack shit for the most part.

That'd be awesome if we had the leaders of VALVe, Bungie, Id Software, Activision, Epic, Konami, Nintendo, EA, 3D Realms and 2K all standing in the same podium. Or if Representatives... from their games! Then it'd be Gordon Freeman, Master Chief, The Doomguy, Soap Mactavish, Marcus Fenix, Pyramid Head, Mario, Isaac Clarke, Duke Nukem and Big Daddy... in the same podium.

And you're right.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

Uhm, as far as I know. The law they are talking about just means violent videogames wont be able to legally be sold to minors. They do that in Canada already. Nothing has changed.

People need to calm down.

If that's true then well, that's also how it goes in Briton and as been like this for as long as I can remember so... I don't see the big deal.

We are very protective of our First Amendment rights, although I agree with both of you. My store already doesn't allow minors to buy M-rated games, so it wouldn't really be any different. There's also the fact that, so far, this would only be in California, not the other 49 states. Naturally, the fear is that it will expand beyond California. There's also the fact that no other form of media is regulated this way (movies, music, books--and porn doesn't count), so it is a bit unfair.
If this does pass, I think it will be like what happened to comic books several decades ago. Eventually, it will just blow over. If it doesn't pass, then the bright spot is that we will have heard the end of this nonsense.