Lawyer: California Law Could Destroy Videogame Industry

Mcface

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Aug 30, 2009
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Lol blown out of proportion again. It's just going to have stricter laws against minors buying games, making it illegal for a store to sell a M game without checking for ID. A minor inconvenience for most. These laws are already in place in just about every store..ever.

Let's just hope we don't become like the UK, their gaming laws are so insanely stupid I would literally move to Canada if it got that bad... and Canada sucks!
 

talenos

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Dec 12, 2009
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It's a bad precedent for this thing to be held up. It means that our freedom of speech varies depending on the medium it's presented in. I can see why non-Americans don't see it as a big deal, but it would be a huge blow to our first amendment.
 

Toriver

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Jan 25, 2010
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Exile714 said:
Lawyers have a tendency to... exaggerate things. I should know, I am one. :(

But the argument is pretty laughable. I mean, the government regulates liquor and pornography... but neither of those has been stamped out of existence.

That said, as a constitutional law focused person, I really hope that this law is struck down by the Supreme Court. But if it's not, the video game industry isn't going anywhere.
Exactly. Lawyer is being lawyerish in the article. It's a common strategy to talk big before the ruling in order to do exactly this, get the media worked up about the ruling before it happens. If other countries have similar laws (and I believe Japan actually has this law too), then the US game industry will be fine.

Commander Breetai said:
El Poncho said:
Commander Breetai said:
Perhaps said:
If you are under 17 just get your parents to buy the mature rated games, problem solved.
...and idiots like you are why this is happening. Take a bow.
I don't see how it is because of people like him, he just knows a solution to what happens, the people who think video games are bad for kids is why this is happening.

Also, I am told that most game stores do not sell mature games to minors anyway.
Because mommy and daddfy byuy junior Super Killdeath Bloodshed Arena III which has an M rating (though they don't register this, it's "just what he wants") and happen to see him playing it and pop a cap.

Now who do you think gets blamed? Do you think they're going to say "Oh golly, this is our fault for buying this, because as we can now see this was a M rated game due to it's violent content?"

No; they're going to point a finger straight at the company that made it and scream bloody murder.
However, here's a bit of a counterpoint. The parents are definitely at fault for getting their kid the game. But in a way, the game company is also at fault. It's not the game itself. Developers are free to make whatever games they want, and should be free to do so. The problem is in the marketing. Let's compare the marketing of R-rated movies to M-rated games, shall we? With film, they make it abundantly clear that an R-rated movie is for adults. The rating is plastered nice and big on the back of the DVD box or on the bottom of the poster, and in many cases, that box or poster shows some scene with some indication that this is adult-oriented material. Do parents get mad at the movie studio for making an R-rated movie when they find their kid watching it? No, at least, not enough to make the news or a Supreme Court ruling out of it. Because they realize it's not the film distributor's fault, because they didn't try to sell the movie to the kid.
Now let's look at video games. And well, we kinda did this to ourselves, guys. Parents have been buying their kids violent video games for a long time, not realizing what was actually in that game. Why? Because in many cases, in the marketing, video game developers try to downplay the controversial material in their games because then they know they will sell more. If the industry is being "threatened" by this law, then it seems clear that the industry has been relying on kids buying adult games for their sales. I am sure they have some marketing demographic researchers out there who should have realized that this was happening. I don't believe the industry can play dumb on this one. So when they got hit with the ESRB rating system, what do they do? Downplay that too, and go for a long time without such a rating system having any "teeth", if you will. Part of the effectiveness of the film rating system is that the industry and the government have a mutual respect for it, and in turn, the movie-going public does as well, and so that rating system is actually enforced at the box office. Nobody but the ESRB gives their rating system any respect, in a large part because developers know that kids are a large market for games like Grand Theft Auto (yes, I'm using the stereotypical example, sue me). So in effect, it seems this law is just trying to ensure that the current rating system is actually enforced. If developers don't like it because they're going to lose a lot of sales, then perhaps they should have been clearer in their marketing that these games are for adults, so that kids couldn't fool mommy and daddy as easily into letting their kid play the game. That, and in some cases, they shouldn't have actively tried to sell such games to children.

As I said before, this is not the downfall of the gaming industry. In fact, this could be a good thing for developers like Nintendo, who rarely produce anything T-rated, much less M. You can just expect your games to probably have some less blood, and we'll probably be shooting more fantastical space aliens or robots than zombies or enemy soldiers. The industry will adapt to save its life, and we will adapt our gaming with it. Kids will just have to wait until they're 18, or find ways to be more persuasive to get their parents to buy the game, in order to play Gears of War 7. That's just what happens. And hopefully, down the line, if the rating system finds more respect, maybe developers like Epic and Bioware will put as much effort into quality into T-rated titles as they do for their M-rated ones. Here's hoping that the best comes out of however the Court rules.
 

geldonyetich

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I don't really get this - exactly what does the law do? "Regulate videogames like the government currently does pornography, liquor or cigarettes?" Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Do this mean mature audiences only for all video games ever? I doubt it, probably just stricter regulation on explicit games. If so, that wouldn't "destroy" the industries at all, though it may diminish the availability of explicit titles to minors.
 

Ian Meier

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Oct 18, 2010
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Exile714 said:
Lawyers have a tendency to... exaggerate things. I should know, I am one. :(

But the argument is pretty laughable. I mean, the government regulates liquor and pornography... but neither of those has been stamped out of existence.

That said, as a constitutional law focused person, I really hope that this law is struck down by the Supreme Court. But if it's not, the video game industry isn't going anywhere.
Let's not forget that the gaming industry is composed of businesses like any other forms of entertainment, and businesses that have a history of preventing major losses to their company. Even a slim chance of fines on retailers will stop some retailers from carrying M rated games. This will lead to loss of profits for gaming comapanies like Bioware, Bungie, Epic games even Activision and EA will not produce M rated games which will kill the FPS genre, Mass-Effect like games, and other genres that rely on the M rated to allow an accurate use of the narrative of each of their games. If the law is upheld then CoD Black Ops could very well be the last FPS we'll have for a while. As there maybe a decision to tone back all other FPS games to a Teen rating.
 

mattttherman3

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Dec 16, 2008
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The law wouldn't change a thing. Just peoples parents will get them the game, and since 80% of stores doesn't sell to minors, this is already happening, therefore, nothing will change.
 

SelectivelyEvil13

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I detest the supporters of this law as they are benighted, fear-mongering fascists that use the "moral highground" targeted towards inept parents as their sword and shield.

This law epitomizes the absurd nature of the U.S.: Here there is no center of moderation, but a strict dichotomy between unlawful debauchery and the accepted status quo. The California law supporters want to video games to be taboos of sin and hedonism because they personally are not willing to accept video games and other entertainment sources that they disagree with.

What this amounts to is a sacrificial scapegoat to free parents and politicians from accountability while condemning a pawn through baseless accusations and correlations manipulated by their bias.

It is sickening to think that video games will be targeted by the wrath of inept parental figures and desperate politicians through this guise of "for the children" when movies like Saw are brought to the conversation not a single time. Should the California law prevail, however, what will be next? Will music, books, and movies undergo their own witch hunts through repeated assaults until the too must be compromised? That is what I fear most, as this precedent could become the first tipping domino leading to the demise of our first amendment rights regarding expression as censorship becomes the new force in power.
 

Sovvolf

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Sniper Team 4 said:
We are very protective of our First Amendment rights.
I've noticed that, though some times it becomes a point where the principle take place over common sense or the logical choice. I've liven in a country that have had these laws my whole life and yet everything seems to run fine over here with it. To me it makes plenty of sense, if your not above the age rating on the game, your not buying it. Your parent can buy it for you though, however, you your self cannot unless you are of that age or above. I think codes like that seem to lower the whole "Think of the children" crying over here, as, well... Children can't really get hold of the game unless the parent buys the game for them.

Putting this in place may actually help the game industry, or at least calm down all those "Think of the children" people. Then, in theory, less can be blamed on the game or the store when the kid goes nuts, that blame lies squarely on the parent who purchased the game.
 

ntw3001

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These people are going to be so confused when one day they manage to get games fully outlawed and bad things still continue to happen.
 

GothmogII

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Apr 6, 2008
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toriver said:
Exile714 said:
Lawyers have a tendency to... exaggerate things. I should know, I am one. :(

But the argument is pretty laughable. I mean, the government regulates liquor and pornography... but neither of those has been stamped out of existence.

That said, as a constitutional law focused person, I really hope that this law is struck down by the Supreme Court. But if it's not, the video game industry isn't going anywhere.
Exactly. Lawyer is being lawyerish in the article. It's a common strategy to talk big before the ruling in order to do exactly this, get the media worked up about the ruling before it happens. If other countries have similar laws (and I believe Japan actually has this law too), then the US game industry will be fine.

Commander Breetai said:
El Poncho said:
Commander Breetai said:
Perhaps said:
If you are under 17 just get your parents to buy the mature rated games, problem solved.
...and idiots like you are why this is happening. Take a bow.
I don't see how it is because of people like him, he just knows a solution to what happens, the people who think video games are bad for kids is why this is happening.

Also, I am told that most game stores do not sell mature games to minors anyway.
Because mommy and daddfy byuy junior Super Killdeath Bloodshed Arena III which has an M rating (though they don't register this, it's "just what he wants") and happen to see him playing it and pop a cap.

Now who do you think gets blamed? Do you think they're going to say "Oh golly, this is our fault for buying this, because as we can now see this was a M rated game due to it's violent content?"

No; they're going to point a finger straight at the company that made it and scream bloody murder.
However, here's a bit of a counterpoint. The parents are definitely at fault for getting their kid the game. But in a way, the game company is also at fault. It's not the game itself. Developers are free to make whatever games they want, and should be free to do so. The problem is in the marketing. Let's compare the marketing of R-rated movies to M-rated games, shall we? With film, they make it abundantly clear that an R-rated movie is for adults. The rating is plastered nice and big on the back of the DVD box or on the bottom of the poster, and in many cases, that box or poster shows some scene with some indication that this is adult-oriented material. Do parents get mad at the movie studio for making an R-rated movie when they find their kid watching it? No, at least, not enough to make the news or a Supreme Court ruling out of it. Because they realize it's not the film distributor's fault, because they didn't try to sell the movie to the kid.
Now let's look at video games. And well, we kinda did this to ourselves, guys. Parents have been buying their kids violent video games for a long time, not realizing what was actually in that game. Why? Because in many cases, in the marketing, video game developers try to downplay the controversial material in their games because then they know they will sell more. If the industry is being "threatened" by this law, then it seems clear that the industry has been relying on kids buying adult games for their sales. I am sure they have some marketing demographic researchers out there who should have realized that this was happening. I don't believe the industry can play dumb on this one. So when they got hit with the ESRB rating system, what do they do? Downplay that too, and go for a long time without such a rating system having any "teeth", if you will. Part of the effectiveness of the film rating system is that the industry and the government have a mutual respect for it, and in turn, the movie-going public does as well, and so that rating system is actually enforced at the box office. Nobody but the ESRB gives their rating system any respect, in a large part because developers know that kids are a large market for games like Grand Theft Auto (yes, I'm using the stereotypical example, sue me). So in effect, it seems this law is just trying to ensure that the current rating system is actually enforced. If developers don't like it because they're going to lose a lot of sales, then perhaps they should have been clearer in their marketing that these games are for adults, so that kids couldn't fool mommy and daddy as easily into letting their kid play the game. That, and in some cases, they shouldn't have actively tried to sell such games to children.

As I said before, this is not the downfall of the gaming industry. In fact, this could be a good thing for developers like Nintendo, who rarely produce anything T-rated, much less M. You can just expect your games to probably have some less blood, and we'll probably be shooting more fantastical space aliens or robots than zombies or enemy soldiers. The industry will adapt to save its life, and we will adapt our gaming with it. Kids will just have to wait until they're 18, or find ways to be more persuasive to get their parents to buy the game, in order to play Gears of War 7. That's just what happens. And hopefully, down the line, if the rating system finds more respect, maybe developers like Epic and Bioware will put as much effort into quality into T-rated titles as they do for their M-rated ones. Here's hoping that the best comes out of however the Court rules.
You'll excuse me if I add a big so what on to that, and in return: Film has been doing that for years! You think of any Horror, or War, or really any film that has been advertised in the past decade that didn't refrain from showing the real nasty parts of em'?

Every single movie trailer or ad fit to be shown on the air has cut out pretty much anything in favour of jump cuts, vagueness and innuendo in order to get on tv. And while I don't especially like the 'well if they can do it why can't we argument', it certainly fits here, and it's unfairly singling out gaming in this instance. Of course they down play certain game elements, they wouldn't be allowed shown otherwise!

Lastly, I'd love to see all those instances of R-Rated/18+ games being advertised at minors, because at it's stands, the claim is farcical at best. Not to mention that despite your claims of a lack of respect (I don't disagree with that part) regarding the ESRB and the like, the rating system is pretty clear, hell, it's more concise than DVD ratings stickers!



What is so hard to understand about those? Are parents blind as well as ignorant?

Not to mention the fact that they list every possibly offensive or parent 'need to know' element contained on the back:

* Alcohol Reference - Reference to and/or images of alcoholic beverages
* Animated Blood - Discolored and/or unrealistic depictions of blood
* Blood - Depictions of blood
* Blood and Gore - Depictions of blood or the mutilation of body parts
* Cartoon Violence - Violent actions involving cartoon-like situations and characters. May include violence where a character is unharmed after the action has been inflicted
* Comic Mischief - Depictions or dialogue involving slapstick or suggestive humor
* Crude Humor - Depictions or dialogue involving vulgar antics, including ?bathroom? humor
* Drug Reference - Reference to and/or images of illegal drugs
* Fantasy Violence - Violent actions of a fantasy nature, involving human or non-human characters in situations easily distinguishable from real life
* Intense Violence - Graphic and realistic-looking depictions of physical conflict. May involve extreme and/or realistic blood, gore, weapons and depictions of human injury and death
* Language - Mild to moderate use of profanity
* Lyrics - Mild references to profanity, sexuality, violence, alcohol or drug use in music
* Mature Humor - Depictions or dialogue involving "adult" humor, including sexual references
* Nudity - Graphic or prolonged depictions of nudity
* Partial Nudity - Brief and/or mild depictions of nudity
* Real Gambling - Player can gamble, including betting or wagering real cash or currency
* Sexual Content - Non-explicit depictions of sexual behavior, possibly including partial nudity
* Sexual Themes - References to sex or sexuality
* Sexual Violence - Depictions of rape or other violent sexual acts
* Simulated Gambling - Player can gamble without betting or wagering real cash or currency
* Strong Language - Explicit and/or frequent use of profanity
* Strong Lyrics - Explicit and/or frequent references to profanity, sex, violence, alcohol or drug use in music
* Strong Sexual Content - Explicit and/or frequent depictions of sexual behavior, possibly including nudity
* Suggestive Themes - Mild provocative references or materials
* Tobacco Reference - Reference to and/or images of tobacco products
* Use of Drugs - The consumption or use of illegal drugs
* Use of Alcohol - The consumption of alcoholic beverages
* Use of Tobacco - The consumption of tobacco products
* Violence - Scenes involving aggressive conflict. May contain bloodless dismemberment
* Violent References - References to violent acts
 

mjc0961

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Nov 30, 2009
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Dear Lawyer:

No shit. We've been saying this for months. But thanks for stating the obvious.
 

benbenthegamerman

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Gxas said:
This is not fucking cool. At all.

This is the worst thing that could happen. We're attempting to create new jobs, so what do we do? Pass a law that will essentially lay-off thousands of workers. Good job government and over-protective parents, you're the reason our country is such a shithole right now.

Completely ninja'd.
 

Shadow-Phoenix

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Mar 22, 2010
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Exile714 said:
Lawyers have a tendency to... exaggerate things. I should know, I am one. :(

But the argument is pretty laughable. I mean, the government regulates liquor and pornography... but neither of those has been stamped out of existence.

That said, as a constitutional law focused person, I really hope that this law is struck down by the Supreme Court. But if it's not, the video game industry isn't going anywhere.
All i can say is this about the United States Government: "The plans are set in motion".
 

vivalahelvig

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Do the anti-game law makers know that the video game industry is a HUGE part of the economy, because there is alsmost always a market for them, AND that that would erase the need for nvidia and other thingy thingy makers, killing jobs, and letting xbox live users get out on the streets to cause more chaos.
 

Doomed Prophet

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Wow. A lot of you must have shins of steel from all the knee jerk reactions. The lawyer, if you noticed, works for the gaming companies so he?s going to make it sound like ?doom and gloom? if the Supreme Court agrees and upholds the Californian law. It?s called ?spin?. It?s a bit sad that the gaming industry subscribes to the ESRB but does nothing, and I do mean NOTHING, to enforce it. Since 1994 the gaming industry has been classifying its games, putting that rating at the beginning of their adverts, and happily peddling their violence to anyone with money. They should be behind the movement, since forcing their distributors to enforce the ESRB ratings is better than banning a game outright.
Gamers are just up in arms because they want their violence fix. Stores being forced to enforce those ratings will be doing the same thing that movie theaters have done since 1968, and they?re still a thriving business. It won?t hurt internet sales in any way. The development companies will still churn out the games you?ve grown to know and love.
It is a bit sad to realize how low the industry has sunk. There used to be a time when overtly violent games were few and far between, but now days it?s the opposite.
Before you break out your flame throwers: I work in the gaming industry and I really don?t see the point of games that substitute violence for story.