Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy

[Marmooset]

There's no point in arguing with pirates over the morality or definition of theft. It's like arguing with a junkie. Logic will simply wash over them without a drop soaking in.

It's a blame shift, pure and simple.

 

[Thyunda]

How can you look down on us 'apologists' when you're playing stolen games? No amount of rhetoric is going to escape that fact. 'Less profit than we are entitled to' is a more serious concern than "Corporations are evil and I am a revolutionary for stealing from them."
You're not a revolutionary.

Those rioters in London this summer? Taking advantage of the chaos to bag a load of free shit? You're no better than they are. Dirty pirates.

I'm not going to debate the merits of your post. Others have done that quite thoroughly, and with minimal effect.

I'd simply like to point out that, unless you have evidence for your assertion that Sylveria is a "dirty pirate" and has been "playing stolen games" (link it, please) the above statements fall under the technical definition of Libel.

Which... is illegal.

So, to clarify, you just broke the law in your post telling us how much you're

defending the God damned law.

Congratulations.

Clearly you didn't pay much attention to my response to the earlier post. I said I wasn't aiming exactly at the poster I was talking to, it was a response aimed at pirates in general.

Doesn't matter. Still libelous, as the initial post was aimed at a specific person. And if you were really aiming at "pirates in general"...

Escapist provides a wonderful edit button. Also, apologies work wonders. Since the fact remains that you DID libel Sylveria.

And now, you're providing excuses for why your illegal actions should be given a pass. Tell me, is your sense of irony going berserk right now? Because mine is...

I libelled nobody. Stop trying to be smart. Pirates are criminals. If Sylveria is a pirate, they are a criminal. If not, they have nothing to be upset over. Go home.

 

[saregos]

How can you look down on us 'apologists' when you're playing stolen games? No amount of rhetoric is going to escape that fact. 'Less profit than we are entitled to' is a more serious concern than "Corporations are evil and I am a revolutionary for stealing from them."
You're not a revolutionary.

Those rioters in London this summer? Taking advantage of the chaos to bag a load of free shit? You're no better than they are. Dirty pirates.

I'm not going to debate the merits of your post. Others have done that quite thoroughly, and with minimal effect.

I'd simply like to point out that, unless you have evidence for your assertion that Sylveria is a "dirty pirate" and has been "playing stolen games" (link it, please) the above statements fall under the technical definition of Libel.

Which... is illegal.

So, to clarify, you just broke the law in your post telling us how much you're

defending the God damned law.

Congratulations.

Clearly you didn't pay much attention to my response to the earlier post. I said I wasn't aiming exactly at the poster I was talking to, it was a response aimed at pirates in general.

Doesn't matter. Still libelous, as the initial post was aimed at a specific person. And if you were really aiming at "pirates in general"...

Escapist provides a wonderful edit button. Also, apologies work wonders. Since the fact remains that you DID libel Sylveria.

And now, you're providing excuses for why your illegal actions should be given a pass. Tell me, is your sense of irony going berserk right now? Because mine is...

I libelled nobody. Stop trying to be smart. Pirates are criminals. If Sylveria is a pirate, they are a criminal. If not, they have nothing to be upset over. Go home.

Uh, no...
If Sylveria isn't a pirate, you FALSELY STATED THEY COMMITTED A CRIME. Which is a crime in and of itself.

Libel:
defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures.

Defamation:
false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another.

So... who's trying (and failing miserably) to be smart? You explicitly committed libel (an actionable offense, if Sylveria weren't an obviously better person than yourself).

Hypocrite.

 

[saregos]

How can you look down on us 'apologists' when you're playing stolen games? No amount of rhetoric is going to escape that fact. 'Less profit than we are entitled to' is a more serious concern than "Corporations are evil and I am a revolutionary for stealing from them."
You're not a revolutionary.

Those rioters in London this summer? Taking advantage of the chaos to bag a load of free shit? You're no better than they are. Dirty pirates.

I'm not going to debate the merits of your post. Others have done that quite thoroughly, and with minimal effect.

I'd simply like to point out that, unless you have evidence for your assertion that Sylveria is a "dirty pirate" and has been "playing stolen games" (link it, please) the above statements fall under the technical definition of Libel.

Which... is illegal.

So, to clarify, you just broke the law in your post telling us how much you're

defending the God damned law.

Congratulations.

Clearly you didn't pay much attention to my response to the earlier post. I said I wasn't aiming exactly at the poster I was talking to, it was a response aimed at pirates in general.

Doesn't matter. Still libelous, as the initial post was aimed at a specific person. And if you were really aiming at "pirates in general"...

Escapist provides a wonderful edit button. Also, apologies work wonders. Since the fact remains that you DID libel Sylveria.

And now, you're providing excuses for why your illegal actions should be given a pass. Tell me, is your sense of irony going berserk right now? Because mine is...

I libelled nobody. Stop trying to be smart. Pirates are criminals. If Sylveria is a pirate, they are a criminal. If not, they have nothing to be upset over. Go home.

Depends which country you're talking about. If he's from the UK, then no, he's not a criminal even if he does pirate as it's only a civil offence not criminal.

More to the point - His unfounded statements fall explicitly in the category of defamation. Written defamation is libel, an actionable offense (at least, in the US).

 

[Aeshi]

There are "some" people on this very forum who would gladly see game developers/publishers/both starve to death for the "crime" of wanting to stop piracy/make money.

Really? I strongly doubt that. However, since you apparently have intimate knowledge of the forums, I'm sure you have no problem whatsoever providing a link.

Personally, I'm all for Ubisoft starving themselves to sanity. Their DRM is counter-productive, obtrusive and, largely, ineffective.

Also, I'd like to point out that there's no fundamental right to success. If a game company produces a game that's blatantly hostile to their customer, they have NO RIGHT to expect profit from it. Piracy doesn't change that fact.

As you wish, please refer to post 278 of this thread. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.333033-Obsidian-Hopes-Digital-Distribution-Stabs-the-Used-Game-Market-in-the-Heart?page=8]

Feel free to start your Goalpost Movement/No True Scotsman Fallacies now.

 

[Flac00]

but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer

NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.

No it doesn't. It means that a product that could have been bought wasn't. Games take money to make, and not paying for the game means that the developer is not getting the money they need to stay in the black for that game. Thus, a loss.

 

[ResonanceSD]

Snip

Snip

I only really take issue with dismissing "not a lost sale" and "If they made better games". I'm not going to say that fixing these will bring an end to piracy, but all this I keep hearing about the absurd overpricing some escapist member have to deal with. This coupled with the fact that there ARE a lot of games that, while fun, are NOT worth $60 ("wait until the price drops, then give it a try") certainly contribute. That coupled with postponed regional release dates and outright limited releasing. I had some friends in my last college who pirated and shared a game simply because there was no way to get in America, it was only released in Japan and one of them had a connection.

I feel the same way as you about games that aren't made widely available. Europe is a hard place to get a fair amount of games. To get a game like the original Shin Megami Tensei legally, I'd have to buy a Super Famicom, find a copy of the game, get them shipped to England, buy a number of electrical socket converters (I think), find some way to hook it up to my TV and most importantly: Learn Japanese.

Now I don't know about anyone else here but that's a lot of effort for one game (or two if you count the sequel). So the easier thing to do is emulate a fan translated copy.

And you know what, I enjoyed that game. But here's the problem with that particular series. Atlus doesn't have a European branch or publisher. I have to wait until March to play Catherine. MARCH! Considering how long that game's been out in NA, never mind Japan, that's a long wait. But apart from that, Atlus doesn't even release all their games in Europe. The only Shin Megami Tensei games that we're likely to get are Persona. Persona is great but I'd like Strange Journey or Devil Survivor too.

I honestly think one thing that does encourage piracy is that. Products not being widely available. It's worse for PC when the product is being distributed digitally but not in your country. No, it's not right that the developers "lose a sale" but it's a debatable thing really as the sale was obviously never going to happen if that person couldn't buy it.

I read your entire post. Thanks for reinforcingthe stereotype that gamers are entitled little twerps. Game developers, publishers don't actually, hilariously enough owe you anything. So you had to wait for a game release? People around the world worry about stuff like landmines. Actual problems. You are going to be discriminated, release wise, based on where you live. I'm Australian. Given how much we pay for games and the argument that "its too expeensiiive" as well as the "nation of convicts" trope, we should all be pirates. Yet we aren't, we pay for our games. Why? Because we don't walk the earth assuming that we're entitled to everything we want.

 

[hubert]

Edit

 

[Flac00]

edit: Also, it's not theft and it's simply incorrect to call it such.

Ok then, the definition of theft then:
An unlawful taking of property (this is from Marian Webster).
Is a game the property of the company that made it? Yes, as according to law (or at least US law), it is.
Is taking a product that costs money for free without the consent of the owner in any way (including from a third party) unlawful? Yes.
So...therefore, piracy of games is theft. Not hard to figure out.

 

[hubert]

edit: Also, it's not theft and it's simply incorrect to call it such.

Ok then, the definition of theft then:
An unlawful taking of property (this is from Marian Webster).
Is a game the property of the company that made it? Yes, as according to law (or at least US law), it is.
Is taking a product that costs money for free without the consent of the owner in any way (including from a third party) unlawful? Yes.
So...therefore, piracy of games is theft. Not hard to figure out.

Technically the game is copied, not taken.

 

[ResonanceSD]

edit: Also, it's not theft and it's simply incorrect to call it such.

Ok then, the definition of theft then:
An unlawful taking of property (this is from Marian Webster).
Is a game the property of the company that made it? Yes, as according to law (or at least US law), it is.
Is taking a product that costs money for free without the consent of the owner in any way (including from a third party) unlawful? Yes.
So...therefore, piracy of games is theft. Not hard to figure out.

Copyright infringement.not theft. However, still illegal. Not sure why everyone gets hung up on this point.

 

[saregos]

There are "some" people on this very forum who would gladly see game developers/publishers/both starve to death for the "crime" of wanting to stop piracy/make money.

Really? I strongly doubt that. However, since you apparently have intimate knowledge of the forums, I'm sure you have no problem whatsoever providing a link.

Personally, I'm all for Ubisoft starving themselves to sanity. Their DRM is counter-productive, obtrusive and, largely, ineffective.

Also, I'd like to point out that there's no fundamental right to success. If a game company produces a game that's blatantly hostile to their customer, they have NO RIGHT to expect profit from it. Piracy doesn't change that fact.

As you wish,Scroll down to post 278. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.333033-Obsidian-Hopes-Digital-Distribution-Stabs-the-Used-Game-Market-in-the-Heart?page=8]

Feel free to start picking up those goal posts now.

A bit hyperbolic, I'll grant. Disturbingly so, in fact. So consider the point conceded.

There are, indeed, pirates (and developers) whose senses of entitlement are frankly quite disgusting. They're a substantial part of the reason why, respectively, piracy can't be effectively combated and developers feel justified in producing piles of AAA shovel-ware.

What I'd like to see, and perhaps what I've lost sight of in the process of arguing this, is game sales increase and the inevitable piracy's effect be minimized. I believe that's the same goal you're interested in achieving.

The only difference is our proposed methods - That doesn't make me a criminal, or supportive of criminal behavior. All it means is that I am of the opinion that heavy-handed DRM and anti-piracy initiatives have shown a history of backfiring, and take value away from the customer.

 

[Gindil]

Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy

A self-described game lawyer explains why arguments in favor of piracy are bunk.

Whenever the prosecution of game piracy is mentioned [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/105521-CD-Projekt-Plans-to-Make-Witcher-2-Pirates-Sorry], the pirates (or, at least, apologists) come out of the woodwork to defend the crime. There's no sure-fire way to go after IP addresses that have downloaded games illegally, they say, because the hackers can just mask their IP address. Or just because a game was downloaded doesn't mean that the computer's owner was the pirate. Worse, pirates say that any prosecution is just a way to scare people or that most of the time pirates become real customers of the game. Jas Purewal is a lawyer based in London and he pointed out today that most of those arguments don't hold up to any real logical scrutiny.

Purewal says there is really no evidence that most pirates have the desire or technical chops to effectively mask their IP address, and even if some did, that's hardly a reason to stop going after pirates. "There's no empirical evidence so far to support how often IP spoofing is done," he said. "In reality, I suspect fairly few pirates actually go to the trouble of disguising themselves. Besides which, just because the method is not perfect, doesn't mean we should throw our hands up in the air and do nothing, does it?"

The notion that piracy does not equate to lost sales is just as erroneous. "Piracy might result in an eventual purchase of a game, but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer," Purewal said. "Sadly developers are not gamer banks, willing to effectively loan gamers money until we decide we like them enough to pay them."

Even though Purewal is a lawyer and should therefor be on board for litigation solving all problems, he's also a gamer. The solution to piracy should come from publishers offering better ways for customers to enjoy their games, not suing willy-nilly. "If we can reduce piracy through the means of technology and via the market, then that's got to be better than getting lawyers involved," he said. He applauds platforms like Steam that are a form of DRM which don't slap paying customers in the face.

The arguments for game piracy seem a bit flimsy in response to stories like abominable list of pirated games from TorrentFreak [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114429-The-Witcher-2-Pirated-Roughly-4-5-Million-Times-Says-Dev]. The games industry can't just ignore these thefts, and no amount of backwards logic can argue the impact of piracy away.



Permalink

What happens when the lawyers get it wrong? [http://torrentfreak.com/dont-have-to-support-piracy-to-hate-bullying-extortion-120104/]

What's funny about CD Projekt, is that they're doing their convictions in Germany, where people are guilty until proven innocent. When the law firm that committed this shakedown got in trouble in the UK, they headed right to a country where a woman who had no internet has to pay over 600 Euros for a crime she didn't commit.

Let's not forget that IP addresses aren't a real name and may not collect the person who did the infringement. But I guess this lawyer's argument was the part actually destroyed, since he has yet to respond to TF's more accurate reporting of the problems of stopping this infringement on people's civil liberties.

 

[saregos]

Copyright infringement.not theft. However, still illegal. Not sure why everyone gets hung up on this point.

I think it's because some of us (myself included) see this as an important step from "how to stop piracy" to "how to exploit it". Basing this on the idea that piracy, while reprehensible in the extreme, is also inevitable.

Theft is directly harmful to whoever you're stealing from. Copyright infringement is, at best, indirectly so. And a creative publisher or developer could hypothetically build in ways to encourage pirates to take the leap of purchasing the game.

 

[SidheKnight]

Fun fact: If it wasn't for piracy, there wouldn't be any gamers left in Latin America almost at all.

Just an observation.