Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[Secondhand Revenant]

https://feminainvicta.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/500x_pdd-nice-guy.jpg

Funny that you link that image, as I recall in highschool, being the guy that all the girls bitched to about their shitty boyfriends, and frequently heard the "I just want a nice guy!" to which I'd respond "Well, how about we go out then?" and they would respond with "Oh, you're TOO nice." Which always puzzled me. I jokingly responded with "What, so if I slapped you in the face and called you a *****/whore, would that reduce my niceness factor enough to date?" They never had a good answer for that. xD

Seriously if you have to bill yourself as nice you're probably not.

If anything they probably didn't just want to offend the guy who apparently believes himself to be so nice and didn't want to have to point out why you aren't attractive to them. Given your response it just may be you aren't nice at all and it's awkward to give a response to someone being that rude if you don't want to just stop being friends with them.

Besides did you seriously think that complaining that someone isn't nice and they want someone nice means that's all they care about? Like who is so damn simple they just want someone nice, obviously that's hardly sufficient and anyone trying to think about it should get that

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I'm going to take a wild stab and say that when someone goes to a close friend talking about boyfriend problems, they wanted support from a friend and not another guy to suggest that they go out. People don't usually think "Well that relationship sucked, let's start another one right away with someone who just happens to be decent." Someone being nice isn't enough to make someone become romantically attached to you

I'm pretty sure they were saying "You're too nice," because they considered you a friend and thought that was nicer than saying "NOT! INTERESTED!"

 

[Synigma]

Snip

I'm going to take a wild stab and say that when someone goes to a close friend talking about boyfriend problems, they wanted support from a friend and not another guy to suggest that they go out. People don't usually think "Well that relationship sucked, let's start another one right away with someone who just happens to be decent." Someone being nice isn't enough to make someone become romantically attached to you

I'm pretty sure they were saying "You're too nice," because they considered you a friend and thought that was nicer than saying "NOT! INTERESTED!"

As an ex-'Nice guy' (important point: there is a big difference between ex-'Nice guy' and 'ex-nice' guy) I would like to bring a perspective to the table, let's see if I can make a concise point of it (and maybe tie it into the OT for bonus points):

'Nice guys' see the nonchalant way that some men act and hit on women as rude, sexist or are just plain too self-conscious to be so direct. Instead they approach women in a friendly manner... and end up in the friend zone because that's how they presented themselves. So when I hear the terms 'Nice guy' or 'Friend-zone' I immediately have a hard time believing that the guy complaining was up front about his intentions when he met the woman. Call the other guys who hit on her assholes but at least they were treating her with the respect of being honest.
However on the other side of that, most of these guys ARE nice. They just haven't conquered their fear of rejection or have put these women on pedestals (usually a bit of both) so it's hard for them to be so direct.

In the case of this guy the situation is a little more convoluted, but he seems to have acted like a friend at first (maybe only because he knew they had a boyfriend but my point still stands) and only after did he express an interest in them.

It's very disingenuous to automatically assume these guys are bad people and I would argue that mocking them IS IN DIRECT OPPOSITION to the OT. He's a man complaining about a problem he is having and you are calling him a horrible person when in all likelihood it's just a miscommunication problem.

That being said I have to say that if you want out of the friendzone you have to stop being friends. If she turns you down then you have to remember that she might have turned you down from the start and it's as simple as that.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

It's very disingenuous to automatically assume these guys are bad people and I would argue that mocking them IS IN DIRECT OPPOSITION to the OT. He's a man complaining about a problem he is having and you are calling him a horrible person when in all likelihood it's just a miscommunication problem.

I'd direct you to the post above yours. It's the part where it goes into villifying others that makes it stop just being some poor guy who didn't get the hint.

Also I don't think it is useful to just accept all men complaining about problems they are having. I prefer that we reserve the right to point out when they're more of the problem and not just mindlessly accept all complaints as valid.

That being said I have to say that if you want out of the friendzone you have to stop being friends. If she turns you down then you have to remember that she might have turned you down from the start and it's as simple as that.

Perhaps that's your dynamic with people but it's definitely not how it is for everyone. Me and my gf considered each other friends for a few years before we decided to get together.

 

[Fox12]

https://feminainvicta.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/500x_pdd-nice-guy.jpg

Funny that you link that image, as I recall in highschool, being the guy that all the girls bitched to about their shitty boyfriends, and frequently heard the "I just want a nice guy!" to which I'd respond "Well, how about we go out then?" and they would respond with "Oh, you're TOO nice." Which always puzzled me. I jokingly responded with "What, so if I slapped you in the face and called you a *****/whore, would that reduce my niceness factor enough to date?" They never had a good answer for that. xD

You know, I've always said, if you're only nice to people because you want something from them, then you're not actually a nice guy.

I'm not saying this about you, of course, but I hear a lot of guys saying that they can't get dates because they're too nice. Or that women only want assholes. But that's really not true at all, unless you think every guys an asshole. Sometimes people just want to vent about a relationship. More importantly, though, I dislike the sense of entitlement that seems to come with this. "I'm a nice guy. Of course women should want to date/sex me." But being a nice person shouldn't be some gold standard, it's a minimum requirement we should all strive for. And we should never expect to be rewarded for it. You don't do nice things because you want something, you do nice things because it's the right thing to do.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I beg your pardon? Virgin shamming? You're going to have to point out where I did that, especially considering that I'm a 22 year old virgin. I never said anything about sex, I thought we were talking about getting girlfriends and how some men act like they only loose out because they're "nice guys". I say why I find that to be bullshit and that these nice guys aren't as nice as they say they are, and all of a sudden I'm virgin shamming? Hey Inu-Kun! You know you can be in a relationship with someone and come out of it a virgin right!? Relationships =/= sex!

You're also replying to entire paragraphs worth of arguments with what can be boiled down to "You did this one thing, therefore you're wrong about everything." Like I said last time, go back and respond to what I ACTUALLY said.

This is the second time you criticize me for an argument that I didn't actually make and you made up. And don't you DARE talk to me about shaming when you're the one that said, and I quote " women are attracted to strong, egoistical men who don't care a shit for them and enough con artists display that, it's pretty sickening the way women sanctify themselves as having "standards" mor than man."

Who's the one shamming here? Because it ain't fucking me!

EDIT: When the ever loving hell did "People against women" come up? More importantly, why would I ever say anything NICE about people who are against women?

 

[Synigma]

I don't see any mocking here, just the recognition that when you make the turn from "rejected guy in friendzone" to "blames the women for wanting a slap" you've shown us all a glimpse of who you really are. Presumably women can see that too, and react badly.

Mocking might not have been the right word. I read erttheking's original response as being pretty insulting, jumping straight to the meme, and a bunch of follow up posts that automatically jumped on the 'Nice guys aren't nice!' bandwagon. Fair enough that this guy didn't exactly sound that nice but all the same it made me defensive because I remember what it used to be like not understanding what I was doing wrong. You have to keep in mind that these guys don't go into these situations on purpose, it just sort of happens and then they get frustrated (and that can come out the wrong way).

It's very disingenuous to automatically assume these guys are bad people and I would argue that mocking them IS IN DIRECT OPPOSITION to the OT. He's a man complaining about a problem he is having and you are calling him a horrible person when in all likelihood it's just a miscommunication problem.

I'd direct you to the post above yours. It's the part where it goes into villifying others that makes it stop just being some poor guy who didn't get the hint.

Also I don't think it is useful to just accept all men complaining about problems they are having. I prefer that we reserve the right to point out when they're more of the problem and not just mindlessly accept all complaints as valid.

Well that post wasn't there when I started typing my response

And I would just like to say that it's not helpful to be outright dismissive. You just breed more resentment and scare of other possible guys who are nice and could use some direction to get out of those positions.

That being said I have to say that if you want out of the friendzone you have to stop being friends. If she turns you down then you have to remember that she might have turned you down from the start and it's as simple as that.

Perhaps that's your dynamic with people but it's definitely not how it is for everyone. Me and my gf considered each other friends for a few years before we decided to get together.

I was trying to keep my answer concise so I didn't go into every possibility. If you're willing to be 'just' friends with a girl then after a while you realize there is something there that's different than what this guy was describing. And can I ask if you and your gf had 'that' talk, you know, about risking your friendship for something more? because that was the point of the first sentence; you have to be willing to give up being friends to get past the friendzone.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It seems an unnecessary distinction that only serves to propagate an "us vs them" mentality for an issue that ultimately affects both genders.

Hence the question, why use a gender specific term for a problem that isn't specific to one gender?

Gender roles and how they specifically affect men are gender specific. Lots of issues affect more than one group, that doesn't mean people shouldn't look at the different ways they affect different groups. The idea that doing so inherently is creating a divide seems little more than a way of dismissing looking at the issues.

Yes, virgin shaming, the oldest weapon in feminists arsenal, that doesn't even make sense when you think about it.

It doesn't make sense in that virgin shaming is hardy a "feminist weapon", whatever that might mean, nor does it seem to have anything to do with the post you quoted.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I brought up the meme after it was said that all women only wanted egotistical men who didn't care for them, and that the person who said that mentioned he was "sickened" with them. Needless to say, it didn't sit very well with me and came off as very "It's all the woman's fault."

Though I have to say overall, I'm sorry, I don't have a very high viewpoint of the whole nice guy thing. At the very best (Which to be fair is probably the case in most regards) it's misguided. The world isn't divided into being a sleazeballs and being friends with her first. Just go up to her, ask her out on a date and be polite about it. Of course, the biggest problem with being a nice guy is that being nice shouldn't be anything special. It should just be standard. And like the others saying, it's kind of creepy to be getting close to someone because you want something from them in return.

 

[Fox12]

And that's where everyone can see your hypocrisy, congratulation on virgin shaming! All that matters is that you continue saying that people who are against women are those who don't have sex, because logic!

Yes, virgin shaming, the oldest weapon in feminists arsenal, that doesn't even make sense when you think about it. But the important thing is that you still talk about slut shaming while doing the same exact the thing to men. IE, judge them on sexual activity, because feminism is such a good thing!

Whoa, when did anyone mention feminism, virgin shaming, or even sex?

And why on earth would anyone say they're against women? I mean, that's self admitted sexism, but I suppose you're right, it doesn't prove you're a virgin. I don't care if you are or not, though, and neither does erttheking, most likely. I do care that you went on this strange, anti-feminist tirade though. I think you've subconsciously revealed a lot about your frustrations in that post. My question, then, is why ARE you "against women?"

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

It's very disingenuous to automatically assume these guys are bad people and I would argue that mocking them IS IN DIRECT OPPOSITION to the OT. He's a man complaining about a problem he is having and you are calling him a horrible person when in all likelihood it's just a miscommunication problem.

I'd direct you to the post above yours. It's the part where it goes into villifying others that makes it stop just being some poor guy who didn't get the hint.

Also I don't think it is useful to just accept all men complaining about problems they are having. I prefer that we reserve the right to point out when they're more of the problem and not just mindlessly accept all complaints as valid.

Well that post wasn't there when I started typing my response

And I would just like to say that it's not helpful to be outright dismissive. You just breed more resentment and scare of other possible guys who are nice and could use some direction to get out of those positions.

Fair enough on it not being there, should have looked at the time stamps and considered the length of your post

Well if it was just bemoaning their own situation that'd be one thing. When they start being kind of nasty then any desire to be helpful to them kind of dies off.

That being said I have to say that if you want out of the friendzone you have to stop being friends. If she turns you down then you have to remember that she might have turned you down from the start and it's as simple as that.

Perhaps that's your dynamic with people but it's definitely not how it is for everyone. Me and my gf considered each other friends for a few years before we decided to get together.

I was trying to keep my answer concise so I didn't go into every possibility. If you're willing to be 'just' friends with a girl then after a while you realize there is something there that's different than what this guy was describing. And can I ask if you and your gf had 'that' talk, you know, about risking your friendship for something more? because that was the point of the first sentence; you have to be willing to give up being friends to get past the friendzone.

We didn't have like a specific talk about it, but she did mention worrying about that possibility. We agreed that we would ideally still want to be friends if anything should happen, though obviously you can't ever be certain about that kind of thing and we both know that. And yeah you do have to be willing to risk friendship, but the way you put it at first was you need to stop being friends. I'd definitely still say we act as friends too thus my objection to it.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

No. It isn't virgin shamming. It's self entitled twat shamming, something I have no shame in doing. The idea behind it is simple, guy thinks he's nice, he really isn't it, and then blames the woman because she can't see how great he is. I don't see what being a virgin has to do with it. I think you're projecting. No I didn't, do you even read my argument before you replied to me? I said that that was the argument that "Nice Guys" USED! Not that you were one of them! Because the insult you saw doesn't fucking exist, that's why. This is just like what you when people say "Patriarchy" and "Toxic masculinity." Automatically assume it's an attack and throw yourself into the position of a victim.

And then you just go off on a rant about feminism because apparently you've got an axe to grind with them. Uh, hate to break it to you pal, but men have a wide variety of tastes. Some like small breasts, some like fat women, some focus on the ass, some focus on the legs, some focus on hair, some focus on the eyes, some focus on feet. Don't say "All men like large breasts" because frankly it isn't true. You need to stop making sweeping generalizations about the genders, you're not good at it. Oh yeah...and men being attracted to large breasts has nothing to do with anything we're talking about. You went off on a random tangent. Again.

Ok, for that last comment, I don't know which response is the best, so take a pick.

1. You seem to call what I said shamming just because you didn't think it was nice
2. I'm not calling it shamming because it's not nice, I'm calling it shamming because it's a massive judgement that you make that frankly isn't true.
3. It's you arguing with emotion and not logic, so don't act like you made a strong point and I just don't want to admit it.

 

[UberPubert]

To conclude, IMO man simply need to release their frustration (in a worst case scenario) and then move on. We do not feel the need to tell others about our problems, unless it is something we can't deal with on our own. Like health issues, when there is an actual need to visit a specialist.

I like this post, it explains a lot of how I feel on the issue.

I don't know how or when being tough, self-sufficient, and dealing with problems on your own became a negative masculine trait, rather than a positive default trait for human beings everywhere, but this new trend doesn't sit well with me. A lot of posters here seem to conflate "not burdening yourself and others with your personal problems" to "bottling up all your emotions until you harm yourself or others" and it seems really dishonest for these same people to suppose that we can't find a happy medium on a site called "The Escapist", which concerns many pass-times people use to work off negative emotions.

In the name of social equality, I do believe that men should have access to the same support as women, whether they be domestic abuse shelters, funding for medical research, or legislation for equal rights. What I don't believe in, is turning everyone's personal insecurities into moral crusades, and that goes for men and women. No one here seems particularly convinced by the case of Nice Guys girl friends passing them up for a-hole boyfriends, am I really supposed to care when feminists begin whinging about manspreading and sweat-shaming?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

To conclude, IMO man simply need to release their frustration (in a worst case scenario) and then move on. We do not feel the need to tell others about our problems, unless it is something we can't deal with on our own. Like health issues, when there is an actual need to visit a specialist.

I like this post, it explains a lot of how I feel on the issue.

I don't know how or when being tough, self-sufficient, and dealing with problems on your own became a negative masculine trait, rather than a positive default trait for human beings everywhere, but this new trend doesn't sit well with me. A lot of posters here seem to conflate "not burdening yourself and others with your personal problems" to "bottling up all your emotions until you harm yourself or others" and it seems really dishonest for these same people to suppose that we can't find a happy medium on a site called "The Escapist", which concerns many pass-times people use to work off negative emotions.

In the name of social equality, I do believe that men should have access to the same support as women, whether they be domestic abuse shelters, funding for medical research, or legislation for equal rights. What I don't believe in, is turning everyone's personal insecurities into moral crusades, and that goes for men and women. No one here seems particularly convinced by the case of Nice Guys girl friends passing them up for a-hole boyfriends, am I really supposed to care when feminists begin whinging about manspreading and sweat-shaming?

I wonder why people can't seem to separate this idea of personal problems and general social problems. Duh no one is saying people need to spill all their personal problems out. People are talking about trends where the problems are caused repeatedly by societal attitudes, not personal spats.

And no one is convinced because his complaint was easily flawed. What's with this silly notion that all complaints are equal.

 

[Synigma]

Snip

I brought up the meme after it was said that all women only wanted egotistical men who didn't care for them, and that the person who said that mentioned he was "sickened" with them. Needless to say, it didn't sit very well with me and came off as very "It's all the woman's fault."

Though I have to say overall, I'm sorry, I don't have a very high viewpoint of the whole nice guy thing. At the very best (Which to be fair is probably the case in most regards) it's misguided. The world isn't divided into being a sleazeballs and being friends with her first. Just go up to her, ask her out on a date and be polite about it. Of course, the biggest problem with being a nice guy is that being nice shouldn't be anything special. It should just be standard. And like the others saying, it's kind of creepy to be getting close to someone because you want something from them in return.

I get where you're coming from and I agree that it can be very poisonous. Personally I always used it as a reason to improve myself, looking inward for the problem instead of outward... and while it was constructive, blaming myself didn't help my confidence though, which ultimately was the main problem.

I think, I HOPE, most guys figure it out eventually because I know how much pain it can cause. I would guess that for every asshole that holds it against the women and lets it come out as misogyny (the ones that give 'Nice guys' their bad name) there is another guy out there that holds it against himself, silently hating himself. If we had more open conversations we could help them (both of them) before they make a mistake that can't be taken back...

 

[UberPubert]

I wonder why people can't seem to separate this idea of personal problems and general social problems.

Generally, when a lot of people have similar personal problems, they try to shift blame to society and say the onus is on others to fix their own issues. You see this in various anti "x-shaming" campaigns, where x takes the place of something people feel insecure in themselves about and then proceed to vastly overestimate how much other people care about it.

Duh no one is saying people need to spill all their personal problems out. People are talking about trends where the problems are caused repeatedly by societal attitudes, not personal spats.

As I've outlined above, the only difference between problems caused by "societal attitudes" and "personal spats" is the frequency at which everyone experiences them. If enough people are having the same problem and express it constantly to each other and their friends through social media, break-time gossip, etc., it becomes a wider problem that is actually just made up of many individual personal spats, not a single one that affects everyone.

And no one is convinced because his complaint was easily flawed. What's with this silly notion that all complaints are equal.

For complaints to be equal, they would first need to hold value, and they don't. Complaints are just a way for people to vent their frustrations and possibly open a dialogue on change. The value comes from the arguments made thereafter, not the initial objection.

For a less pedantic response: Maybe Nice Guys have a legitimate issue with the way society conditions them to approach women as "friends" because the average macho guy who innocently expresses his sexuality towards women he finds attractive is being constantly demonized in the media as the "asshole" archetype Nice Guys are trying so desperately to escape.

Do I think society needs to "fix" Nice Guys, though? No, I think most of them are waking up to reality just fine on their own, and good for them.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I wonder why people can't seem to separate this idea of personal problems and general social problems.

Generally, when a lot of people have similar personal problems, they try to shift blame to society and say the onus is on others to fix their own issues. You see this in various anti "x-shaming" campaigns, where x takes the place of something people feel insecure in themselves about and then proceed to vastly overestimate how much other people care about it.

No that's not how it actually plays out. (Yes when people make claims and don't back them sometimes my response is just to say 'No')

Duh no one is saying people need to spill all their personal problems out. People are talking about trends where the problems are caused repeatedly by societal attitudes, not personal spats.

As I've outlined above, the only difference between problems caused by "societal attitudes" and "personal spats" is the frequency at which everyone experiences them. If enough people are having the same problem and express it constantly to each other and their friends through social media, break-time gossip, etc., it becomes a wider problem that is actually just made up of many individual personal spats, not a single one that affects everyone.

Outlined? I believe you mean claimed.

Affects everyone? Ah well I suppose when your weapon is pure rhetoric a smattering of hyperbole when talking about what others say is only to be expected.

And no one is convinced because his complaint was easily flawed. What's with this silly notion that all complaints are equal.

For complaints to be equal, they would first need to hold value, and they don't. Complaints are just a way for people to vent their frustrations and possibly open a dialogue on change. The value comes from the arguments made thereafter, not the initial objection.

A complaint needn't merely describe the initial objection. If you want to try pedantry try to get it right.

For a less pedantic response: Maybe Nice Guys have a legitimate issue with the way society conditions them to approach women as "friends" because the average macho guy who innocently expresses his sexuality towards women he finds attractive is being constantly demonized in the media as the "asshole" archetype Nice Guys are trying so desperately to escape.

Oh this absurd 'maybe'. No I'm not going to just go with maybe and anyone not trying to weasel around things wouldn't either. If it's the case make an argument for it. The one displayed failed and that's why it's rejected.

If you want the say it's the case prove it. I'm not going to be fooled by worthless maybes.

Do I think society needs to "fix" Nice Guys, though? No, I think most of them are waking up to reality just fine on their own, and good for them.

And?

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

The run out of real problems to talk about, so they have to make up problems or grasp and ampliphy anything that might be considered a problem (#ShirtGate).

Or, they could focus on issues women in the Third World have to deal with. Y'know, where things like genital mutilation, forced marriage to your rapist, and child brides are all things that are happening.

Though I guess air conditioning is more important.

 

[UberPubert]

No that's not how it actually plays out. (Yes when people make claims and don't back them sometimes my response is just to say 'No')

Basic Psychology of Human Rationalization.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201203/self-deception-i-rationalization

People always have and always will displace blame from themselves as a coping mechanism for their own short-comings, "society" is the most agreeable culprit.

A complaint needn't merely describe the initial objection. If you want to try pedantry try to get it right.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complaint

Everything but the legal and medical definition of complaint is simply raising a stink about something that causes negative emotions, it is not a problem-solving or logical argument.

Oh this absurd 'maybe'. No I'm not going to just go with maybe and anyone not trying to weasel around things wouldn't either. If it's the case make an argument for it. The one displayed failed and that's why it's rejected.

If you want the say it's the case prove it. I'm not going to be fooled by worthless maybes.

As I said, this "maybe" is merely a complaint. Value would be found in linking any number of articles or studies that show negative trends in perception of male sexuality leading to males pursuing women as platonic friends firstly, though it is a relatively new phenomenon (with no proof pointing one way or another that I've seen to date) and is just an observation on my part.

And?

Just saying that if someone starts a support foundation for Nice Guys you won't see me advocating for it any more than any other lousy social cause.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

No that's not how it actually plays out. (Yes when people make claims and don't back them sometimes my response is just to say 'No')

Basic Psychology of Human Rationalization.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201203/self-deception-i-rationalization

People always have and always will displace blame from themselves as a coping mechanism for their own short-comings, "society" is the most agreeable culprit.

That something can happen does not mean it's the case for a particular occurance. That's beyond basic.

A complaint needn't merely describe the initial objection. If you want to try pedantry try to get it right.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complaint

Everything but the legal and medical definition of complaint is simply raising a stink about something that causes negative emotions, it is not a problem-solving or logical argument.

I'm waiting to see the bit where it is limited only 'raising a stink'. Any grievance, regardless of logic, can be called a complaint.

Also it's funny to see you say logic when you're using the faulty logic that because something is not defined as X it cannot also include X in some occasions. It never says that a complaint is mutually exclusive to all else.

Oh this absurd 'maybe'. No I'm not going to just go with maybe and anyone not trying to weasel around things wouldn't either. If it's the case make an argument for it. The one displayed failed and that's why it's rejected.

If you want the say it's the case prove it. I'm not going to be fooled by worthless maybes.

As I said, this "maybe" is merely a complaint. Value would be found in linking any number of articles or studies that show negative trends in perception of male sexuality leading to males pursuing women as platonic friends firstly, though it is a relatively new phenomenon (with no proof pointing one way or another that I've seen to date) and is just an observation on my part.

An 'observation' with no value.

And?

Just saying that if someone starts a support foundation for Nice Guys you won't see me advocating for it any more than any other lousy social cause.

Lovely. Now if that had any bearing on whether on the other causes it might actually mean something.