Yahtzee seems to be implying that there is something wrong with angrily jacking it. I can't imagine any other way.
Male Protagonists
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Sometimes you don't want a susceptible, occasionally wrong, sometimes weak lovey dovey man.
Sometimes you just want a hilariously unreal beefcake to stomp everything, case in point the most recent Universal Soldier film where, lets just say, the 2nd half of the film is one sided and awesome.
I guess my point is there's room for both, i want to scream and destroy everything, and i also want a character who has ups and downs.
Sometimes you just want a hilariously unreal beefcake to stomp everything, case in point the most recent Universal Soldier film where, lets just say, the 2nd half of the film is one sided and awesome.
I guess my point is there's room for both, i want to scream and destroy everything, and i also want a character who has ups and downs.
Hmmm, well I think that's overly simplified.
For all Yahtzee's dislike of the stereotype, I think "Macho" protaganists have their place in games, I think they are just overdone and appear far too often.
See, a hyper macho, arrogant, dude who is as good as he says he is, is interesting when compared to other more normal characters including the "manly man" that was mentioned, the emo types, the warrior-scholor types, and others. However when everyone is doing the same schtick in nearly every game it gets old.
It's sort of like my take on Dark Heroes, in general when everyone is a dark, brooding shadowy hero type like Batman, it loses it's distinction. There needs to be the allegedly "regular" type of hero in successful operation with some frequency to have the counterpoint make sense.
That's why when Dark Heroes were fairly new, and lethality came back to comics, it was interesting, and a worthy analysis of the comics genere. However when such characters became the staple, it more or less turned into irredeemable costumed psychopaths.
I see some similarities. For example "300" with King Leonidas was cool, but the 47 hyper macho imitators that tried to catch onto that vibe "because it worked there" generally were not.
Ah well, enough rambling.
For all Yahtzee's dislike of the stereotype, I think "Macho" protaganists have their place in games, I think they are just overdone and appear far too often.
See, a hyper macho, arrogant, dude who is as good as he says he is, is interesting when compared to other more normal characters including the "manly man" that was mentioned, the emo types, the warrior-scholor types, and others. However when everyone is doing the same schtick in nearly every game it gets old.
It's sort of like my take on Dark Heroes, in general when everyone is a dark, brooding shadowy hero type like Batman, it loses it's distinction. There needs to be the allegedly "regular" type of hero in successful operation with some frequency to have the counterpoint make sense.
That's why when Dark Heroes were fairly new, and lethality came back to comics, it was interesting, and a worthy analysis of the comics genere. However when such characters became the staple, it more or less turned into irredeemable costumed psychopaths.
I see some similarities. For example "300" with King Leonidas was cool, but the 47 hyper macho imitators that tried to catch onto that vibe "because it worked there" generally were not.
Ah well, enough rambling.
Hmm, maybe in an army, but only the two of them work together? And they need masks.Dark Templar said:
Anyway, I agree with the example of Niko as the manly man. Easily one of my favourite main characters from the GTA series.
Those characters are boring. Maybe their big guns blowing the heads off of slack-jawed opponents provides some brief amusement, but games with stories that are actually good need characters that aren't big raging throbbing stereotypes. It's one of the basic rules of writing.AnarchistAbe said:
There are too many macho men in my school... Also I think the idea to have a shield sapping effect on staying in cover too long is a good way to keep the pace of the game frantic. I still want to try it out when its done.
Ok why does everyone bag on marcus fenix for being an emotionaly jaded psychopath?
Does anyone remember when marcus was dragged by his best friend Dom out of a prison crawling with locust? Does anyone remember Colonel Hoffman saying how he had left him there to rot after pulling every other prisoner out?
Now tell me, if you were a young man, emotionaly stunted by the dissapearence of your mother when you were a child, raised by an uncaring father, joining the military at a young age, being helpless and forced to bear witness too the death of a childhood friend and father figure, then being put into a war winning battle only to have your father put in danger, your one chance to rescue him fails, you are then put in prison for several years as the world burns around you and you are left too rot, would you not be a little bit emotionaly jaded?
Also, you have to fight for survival in a regular prison, so who knows what happens when the prison is over run by alien monsters who want nothing more than to rip your face off. Regardless of how you physically deal with prison, no one escapes without any mental scars.
Marcus was abandoned and condemned to almost certain death by one of the few father figures he had, only to be saved by the brother that he never had.
I think it would be unrealistic if marcus fenix didn't appear to be an emotionally dead psychopath and besides, its not that he doesn't have emotions, its that he has trouble expressing them.
Marcus Fenix is a great character and is simply missunderstood by those who look at a game and see only shallow characters, just pixels with big guns, however a little probing into the gears mythos reveals that each character is just as realistic and human as any character in a novel, a movie or any other video game that you care to name.
Does anyone remember when marcus was dragged by his best friend Dom out of a prison crawling with locust? Does anyone remember Colonel Hoffman saying how he had left him there to rot after pulling every other prisoner out?
Now tell me, if you were a young man, emotionaly stunted by the dissapearence of your mother when you were a child, raised by an uncaring father, joining the military at a young age, being helpless and forced to bear witness too the death of a childhood friend and father figure, then being put into a war winning battle only to have your father put in danger, your one chance to rescue him fails, you are then put in prison for several years as the world burns around you and you are left too rot, would you not be a little bit emotionaly jaded?
Also, you have to fight for survival in a regular prison, so who knows what happens when the prison is over run by alien monsters who want nothing more than to rip your face off. Regardless of how you physically deal with prison, no one escapes without any mental scars.
Marcus was abandoned and condemned to almost certain death by one of the few father figures he had, only to be saved by the brother that he never had.
I think it would be unrealistic if marcus fenix didn't appear to be an emotionally dead psychopath and besides, its not that he doesn't have emotions, its that he has trouble expressing them.
Marcus Fenix is a great character and is simply missunderstood by those who look at a game and see only shallow characters, just pixels with big guns, however a little probing into the gears mythos reveals that each character is just as realistic and human as any character in a novel, a movie or any other video game that you care to name.
I loved--and still love--those 80s action flicks. I think the difference is most of them--the good ones, anyway--were basically violent, live-action cartoons. The action was completely over the top (for the 80s, anyway) and the heroes would just casually toss out groan-inducing one-liners when exterminating foes. They were great fun.AnarchistAbe said:
But as many have already noted, when macho-men expect you to take them seriously, you can't. (This is also why Chuck Norris is my least favourite 80s action hero. However badass a martial artist he was in real life, onscreen the man had zero charisma and expected me to take him seriously.) I've only played the original Dead to Rights, and although the game was overly-repetitive, I actually liked Jack Slate in that one, because he was so ridiculously over-the-top I just laughed at everything he did. "One good cop is wrongfully accused of murder and needs to clear his name...by slaughtering hundreds of dudes, most often execution-style in the back of the head." How could you not laugh at that?
No, I got that too. While in AC1 I'd murder Templars and city guardsmen without a second-thought, I always felt really guilty in AC2 when I had to kill random archers just to maintain my low-profile. A voice in the back of my head kept saying, "these guys are probably just working schmucks with families to feed."Troop18546 said:
w
Action Girl: Katara, Hit-Girl, Farah in SoT
Supercilious Badass Action Girl: Lara Croft, Every Bond Girl, Farah in TT, Almost Every Strong Female Character in Every Medium Ever
The action girl is a girl who can hold her own in combat, but the authors remembered that after the word 'action' was the word 'girl', and the action girl isn't afraid to be feminine. She may enjoy wearing dresses or flirting with men, or she may not, but either way she knows the difference between evening wear and tactical wear. She is probably beautiful, but has a neutral attitude toward it...it doesn't mean much to her. She is honestly very similar to the manly men in her attitude to most situations.
The supercilious badass action girl acts like showing femininity is for weak-minded pansies, and her battle cry of "p'shaw, men" can be heard at every opportunity. Creators might claim it's an attempt to make her independent, but really they do it because [sarcasm]everyone knows competence is not a feminine quality, and the only way a woman could be strong if she wasn't feminine at all[/sarcasm]. Contradictorily, she probably shows off tons of skin and has boobs like watermelons, but you can expect token pretensions to being a femme fatale and using her sexuality as an asset. Typically, the supercilious badass action girl is mostly talk, and if stuff ever gets real she's the first to be captured and arousingly tied up for the male characters to save.
I'd say the variants are:Rect Pola said:
Action Girl: Katara, Hit-Girl, Farah in SoT
Supercilious Badass Action Girl: Lara Croft, Every Bond Girl, Farah in TT, Almost Every Strong Female Character in Every Medium Ever
The action girl is a girl who can hold her own in combat, but the authors remembered that after the word 'action' was the word 'girl', and the action girl isn't afraid to be feminine. She may enjoy wearing dresses or flirting with men, or she may not, but either way she knows the difference between evening wear and tactical wear. She is probably beautiful, but has a neutral attitude toward it...it doesn't mean much to her. She is honestly very similar to the manly men in her attitude to most situations.
The supercilious badass action girl acts like showing femininity is for weak-minded pansies, and her battle cry of "p'shaw, men" can be heard at every opportunity. Creators might claim it's an attempt to make her independent, but really they do it because [sarcasm]everyone knows competence is not a feminine quality, and the only way a woman could be strong if she wasn't feminine at all[/sarcasm]. Contradictorily, she probably shows off tons of skin and has boobs like watermelons, but you can expect token pretensions to being a femme fatale and using her sexuality as an asset. Typically, the supercilious badass action girl is mostly talk, and if stuff ever gets real she's the first to be captured and arousingly tied up for the male characters to save.
Warning: Another Geizr wall-o-text ahead!
Here, Yahtzee echoes some of my own thoughts concerning the stereotyped portrayals of men(and even women) in video games. The basic point is that, no matter what gamers, game developers, and the gaming press may say to the contrary, video games still have yet to actually grow-up. Games still evince a thinking and perspective in their design which is that of a priapic juvenile male pretending to be an adult and having all the skewed misunderstandings of adulthood that a 14-year-old male would have; games still have yet to go beyond the 14-year-old male testosterone-laden fantasies. What Yahtzee describes as the manly man is much closer to the real adult male; whereas, the macho man is closer to the priapic juvenile's skewed perception of the adult male. An earlier poster put it best saying the manly man accepts and does what must be done(grounded in reality and accepting it for what it is), while the macho man is just trying to show off(compensating for his own deficiencies and unbalanced character).
It is interesting to the think that for all the "realism" that game developers like to try to push into a game(I swear FPS developers and gamers must have the eye-sight of a dog to think the monochromatic color palettes used in such games is realistic), the one area of realism that they tend to totally fail at is human interaction(the body language, the manner and subjects of conversation, and the responses to situations). I can only blame that on the geek culture's lack of empathy in social situations and the overuse of cameoed/canned jokes, potty humor, and geek culture references.
Let's be clear, however, adults have their fantasies too, and it's not all about sex(though it does come into play every so often). However, adult fantasies can tend to take more depth or be more simulation oriented toward particular situations, a vision of the future(personal, familial, or societal), a utopian dream(such as finding the perfect relationship), or a state of permanent perfection of being. Sometimes, the fantasies can center on more base desires for riches and domination; other times, these fantasies can be exploratory of other possibilities of existence. Of course, I have to admit, that the dream of being a kid again is definitely on the list of adult fantasies.
The point is that the adult mind and outlook is far more, and far from, being some indifferent badass that blows shit up all day and has copious amounts of sex. That image is a ridiculous sensationalization portrayed in the media. Unfortunately, the 14-year-old priapic male does not have the wisdom of experience to separate the fantasy from the reality, which may explain some disillusionment people suffer when moving into adulthood(disillusionment, burnout, and even some depression can be caused when our fantasy expectations of reality are not met by reality; reality is under no obligation to adhere to our ideologies or whims).
Here, Yahtzee echoes some of my own thoughts concerning the stereotyped portrayals of men(and even women) in video games. The basic point is that, no matter what gamers, game developers, and the gaming press may say to the contrary, video games still have yet to actually grow-up. Games still evince a thinking and perspective in their design which is that of a priapic juvenile male pretending to be an adult and having all the skewed misunderstandings of adulthood that a 14-year-old male would have; games still have yet to go beyond the 14-year-old male testosterone-laden fantasies. What Yahtzee describes as the manly man is much closer to the real adult male; whereas, the macho man is closer to the priapic juvenile's skewed perception of the adult male. An earlier poster put it best saying the manly man accepts and does what must be done(grounded in reality and accepting it for what it is), while the macho man is just trying to show off(compensating for his own deficiencies and unbalanced character).
It is interesting to the think that for all the "realism" that game developers like to try to push into a game(I swear FPS developers and gamers must have the eye-sight of a dog to think the monochromatic color palettes used in such games is realistic), the one area of realism that they tend to totally fail at is human interaction(the body language, the manner and subjects of conversation, and the responses to situations). I can only blame that on the geek culture's lack of empathy in social situations and the overuse of cameoed/canned jokes, potty humor, and geek culture references.
Let's be clear, however, adults have their fantasies too, and it's not all about sex(though it does come into play every so often). However, adult fantasies can tend to take more depth or be more simulation oriented toward particular situations, a vision of the future(personal, familial, or societal), a utopian dream(such as finding the perfect relationship), or a state of permanent perfection of being. Sometimes, the fantasies can center on more base desires for riches and domination; other times, these fantasies can be exploratory of other possibilities of existence. Of course, I have to admit, that the dream of being a kid again is definitely on the list of adult fantasies.
The point is that the adult mind and outlook is far more, and far from, being some indifferent badass that blows shit up all day and has copious amounts of sex. That image is a ridiculous sensationalization portrayed in the media. Unfortunately, the 14-year-old priapic male does not have the wisdom of experience to separate the fantasy from the reality, which may explain some disillusionment people suffer when moving into adulthood(disillusionment, burnout, and even some depression can be caused when our fantasy expectations of reality are not met by reality; reality is under no obligation to adhere to our ideologies or whims).
John McClain and Rambo are probably the perfect examples of 'manly' men and not machos if compared to the article's definition. They are strong, masculine etc but have the crucial human element in their characters. Rambo goes a bit overboard in the latest movies (to put it mildly) but he's still a rather ok.AnarchistAbe said:
No problem with playing strong men with overcompensating weapons aslong as they aren't thick and dim-witted.
I think Issac Clarke is a manly man. He dresses appropriately (full body engineering rig and helmet he never takes off) and efficiently(can carry a crap ton of ammo, health packs, air tanks, etc), properly armed (repurposed mining equipment/tools), helps his allies without complaint, and is able to realistically face whatever nasty mutant abominations are in the way to save his sweetheart and get the job done.
Yes he doesn't quite meet the emotional parts but I think that was because he was supposed to be more of a blank slate for the player like say Gordon Freeman. And in DS2 they are giving him more personality and a voice this time.
Yes he doesn't quite meet the emotional parts but I think that was because he was supposed to be more of a blank slate for the player like say Gordon Freeman. And in DS2 they are giving him more personality and a voice this time.
ultimateownage said:
Honestly,i don't even think Gordon Freeman is human.For all that matters,they could replace him for Dog and i would not even notice.GF does'nt show any kind of emotions,so he can't be qualified in either category.Not G. Ivingname said:Anyone else thinks Yahtzee forgot about the manliest man of all?
Nicely put, sir. I have been trying to point out the difference between manly and macho to my male friends for some time now, and now I can just send them a link.
To be fair, YES, you are right. All of the traits you mentioned exist, however...ironlordthemad said:
Mythos aren't the easiest things to get into, and I would even go as far as to say that they don't count. They present what was missing, but a character's quality shouldn't depend on those - it should be obvious within the game itself. Pity the games don't even try to make the best of it. Despite these expansive backgrounds, the character interaction itself feels largely single-tone - "grim determination and gallows humor" as Yahtzee put it. The gears may all have psychological profiles somewhere on a wikia page, but these aren't handled well.
It takes none of the fun out of the game, though, but you can't really complain if it's the butt monkey in any discussion on well-written characters. They don't shine through, but the gameplay doesn't suffer for it.
All these comments and yet a single Randy Savage reference? Seriously, Yahtzees definition of a Macho Man is almost 100% the character that Macho Man Randy Savage portrayed in the mid-late 80's. Give him an oversized gun and you have a direct match.
MGS1 Snake - manly
MGS2 Snake - macho
MGS3 Snake - manly
MGS4 Snake - macho-ish
And so on for eternity.
MGS2 Snake - macho
MGS3 Snake - manly
MGS4 Snake - macho-ish
And so on for eternity.