Male Protagonists

[Wuvlycuddles]

I think yatzee missed the other end of the scale from macho men, the girly boy like the ones we see far too often in japanese games. Personally, i tend to only find the extremes objectionable, as a result i tend to idenify/enjoy more "balanced" male protagonists. But then again, there is this thing about the macho man characters, you can push it too far and make them quite comical, intentionally (duke nukem) or unintentionally (kratos) and i quite enjoy those characters too.

 

[Foshorror]

Well I guess macho-men aren't too bad as a gameplay character... I mean look at Kratos... he pretty much fits the entire description of a macho-man. Though I do get your point, manly men are macho-men with personality and maybe a brain.

Well, yes, the games can be functional, but it's better if some though has been put into it. Kratos, for example, does not have the exaggerated looks typical of what Yahtzee once called "a twelve-year-old's vision of masculinity." He wears a skirt and some sandals. And the fleece, but that has a purpose.

And besides, the games do their best to show just how demented Kratos is, letting you have fun, but showing you at a lot of points that your actions are quite questionable. If anything, it's a self-aware macho game with a dark parody of the macho protagonist.

Anyway, nice to hear FSG:TG is progressing. Piloting a faulty ship and making it part of the gameplay sounds like a good way to introduce a sense of urgency. Only, the freezing thing isn't believable without some further elaboration - space isn't really cold (despite what The Phantom Menace tells you). If the ship had a faulty cooling system, with the coolant unable to stop circulating, you would have to run the engine to avoid it being frozen. But, if it's actually more intuitive for the average player to have space be an Antarctica-like environment where ships get hypothermia, it's a valid choice.

Er, no. Average temperatures in space (when there's no local star around) can get extremely cold, like hundreds of degrees below zero cold. Add in the fact that there's no atmosphere to hold in your own heat that you are constantly radiating off (like a big hot engine that is in desperate need of a tuneup) can mean that anything that was "hot" will rapidly vent heat until it freezes...then freezes even harder.

So yeah, Yahtzee's idea of an engine that freezes unless it is kept running is a perfectly valid story factor as well as a fairly unique game play element (Lost Planet doesn't count).

 

[eacolucci]

I think putting Marcus Fenix in the "macho" category is mislabeling him. He wears a lot of armor, but that's about it. He doesn't seem to enjoy all the violence (like Cole clearly does). He also doesn't dismiss his own emotions or the emotions of other characters (he helps Dom find his wife in Gears 2 even though it sidetracks them from their misssion). Also, the trailers for the Gears games are pretty emotional. They don't celebrate violence or use it as the game's main selling point.

I admit that he's an incomplete character. I don't know what kind of person Marcus is, and that's probably a flaw in his character by itself, but I don't get the sense that he's macho at all.

 

[josh797]

well written article. i liked it. its so true. basically manly men we respect, macho men we deride.

also, i am SO EXCITED for fun space game. i cant wait to play it!

 

[Apretentiousname]

Interesting description of manly vs. macho, I like it, if anyone cares. But what about the boss from saints row 2? He certainly isn't very sympathetic...or empathetic. He just kinda...kills everything. And amasses power.
He seems to be leaning more towards macho than manly to me, or maybe we should just make him a new category of awesome. What do ya think?

 

[RetroFlush]

A spaceship that cannot stop - that is a pretty big design flaw. Glad you changed it so the ship will stop now.

 

[arcstone]

Massive muscles = gay?


I dont get it.

 

[Biscotti187]

YA! Yahtzee just gave us all a lovely trip of what his ideal man would be. Wouldn't it be dull if this was that majority game characters though?

 

[BloodSquirrel]

Why is the Macho-Man so hated in the gaming community? Am I the only one who likes playing an 80s Action Hero as my video game persona? I love the Rambo/John McClain macho badass banter, but it seems that it is constantly ripped apart in the games media.

Have all gamers been so emotionally ripped apart by "bros" and "football jock douches" that they can't enjoy the macho-man for fear of being thrown in a trashcan and given a wedgie? All joking aside: really, what is the issue with having a character that has muscles on his muscles and uses a gun as big as he is?

I started to suspect a while ago that there are some massive insecurity issues here, especially considering how little most of their complaints have to do with what these characters are actually like. Some people seem to take it so personally that I'm not sure there's any other explanation than them feeling threatened by any man that doesn't act like he has a vagina.

Take Marcus Fenix: This is a guy who has been shown to not actually like the war he's fighting. He ranges from being annoyed at some of the more minor stuff (taking orders from guys he doesn't like, having to train a rookie) to being horrified at the more serious stuff (What happened to Thai) to showing concern for Carmine, to trying to comfort and console his friend when his wife dies. All in all, he gives off the impression of someone who is just tired of it all, but doesn't have any way out.

Marcus never engages in any of this overly-macho behavior that these characters supposedly wallow in. He's entirely driven by a sense of duty: he has to fight. Mankind's survival is on the line; it's entirely selfless. When he finds out that the locust have been taking people, he goes after them to try to help them. When he finds out that Dom's wife may be alive and nearby, he's torn between helping his friend and completing an important mission.

What, exactly, do people want from the guy?

No, he never breaks down screaming at the sky or goes into the fetal position crying, but there's a difference between a character being stoic or understated and only feeling rage. Subtlety in writing is actually considered a good thing in most places.

Master Chief is another example. He's shown to be respectful to pretty much everybody except for the aliens that he's fighting. He's got a dry sense of humor. He never shows any arrogance. He never uses violence in any kind or uncontrolled or unnecessary manner. All in all, he's a highly disciplined soldier who acts with every ounce of maturity that you'd want from mankind's last hope.

Where, exactly, does this image of him being an obnoxious meathead come from other than people
who have never played the game?

This stereotype really came from 90's comicbook characters where the 'heroes' were undisguised sociopaths with an overabundance of pouches and guns that made no sense whatsoever who we were supposed to think were awesome because of how EXTREME they were (think Rob Liefield), but it gets horribly overapplied to places where it really isn't true.

I love the Rambo/John McClain macho badass banter, but it seems that it is constantly ripped apart in the games media.

This is another good example of people getting confused by mixed stereotypes: Rambo was never a 'banter' guy. The first movie was about him having a breakdown because he couldn't adjust to civilian life after the war. The movie ended with an old friend talking him down and getting him to surrender to police. He didn't want to be 'macho', he just wanted to find a way to get his life together again. Hell, the movie could be viewed as a deconstruction of overly macho heroes.

John McClain became famous for being a more human action hero. He got beat up a lot. He bled. He was trying to fix a broken marriage. He was only fighting a handful of guys, and he only ever took them on one at a time, and it was never easy. The first Die Hard was practically wrote the book on the more grounded action hero (Or course, the movies got less grounded as they went on).

 

[camazotz]

You had me at the "Emmeline Pankhursts." I am now unable to look at Gears of War in the same way....my play experience has changed forever......

 

[BloodSquirrel]

Er, no. Average temperatures in space (when there's no local star around) can get extremely cold, like hundreds of degrees below zero cold. Add in the fact that there's no atmosphere to hold in your own heat that you are constantly radiating off (like a big hot engine that is in desperate need of a tuneup)

An atmosphere does not 'hold in heat' better than a vacuum. In fact, nothing does. A vacuum is the best insulator known to man. The "average temperature in space" is misleading- empty space does not actually have a temperature. Temperature is something that matter has. The background radiation can be measured at about 2.73 Kelvin, but the "temperature" of the vacuum of space is no different than the "temperature" of a vacuum created on Earth with the lights turned off. Objects in space are only cold because they've had a very, very long time to radiate all of their heat away.

 

[Atmos Duality]

So, would Duke Nukem be considered macho? Or is he disqualified by the "parody/comedy clause"?

 

[Misterian]

You got a good point

But when I played Gears Of War, I never really thought of Marcus as macho, I thought he was what you get if you take a fully trained military man and have him disregard protocol.

 

[ADDLibrarian]

For all Yahtzee's dislike of the stereotype, I think "Macho" protaganists have their place in games, I think they are just overdone and appear far too often.

I feel that the "machos" place in gaming is for those games that are strictly to blow off steam. That's all they're good for.

Leave the stories and adventures to the manly men.

As always, intelligently articulated valid points, oh Yahtzee master.

Massive muscles = gay?
I dont get it.

Massive muscles means you have devoted more than necessary time to physical training, you've only focused on the physical aspects as opposed to looking at strategies or other mental skills. Massive muscles also imply an unrealistic quality, much like the personality of the macho.

 

[Quorothorn]

Why is the Macho-Man so hated in the gaming community? Am I the only one who likes playing an 80s Action Hero as my video game persona? I love the Rambo/John McClain macho badass banter, but it seems that it is constantly ripped apart in the games media.

Have all gamers been so emotionally ripped apart by "bros" and "football jock douches" that they can't enjoy the macho-man for fear of being thrown in a trashcan and given a wedgie? All joking aside: really, what is the issue with having a character that has muscles on his muscles and uses a gun as big as he is?

Nothing really. I like the characters on the opposite extreme personally. I don't feel anything is inherently wrong with he slightly effeminate, softer male characters either. To each his own?

To each his own. It all comes down to personal preference, and softer characters can be good as well (Nathan Drake comes to mind), but ,as I stated, I'll stick with Marcus Phoenix as my character =)

They should make a game where there are 2 main characters, one is a Raiden esqe pretty boy and the other is a Marcus Phenix esqe macho man. They can be partners in something.......mercenaries maybe? I'll start on the design documents.

Like in Army of Two, perhaps? Not to be all "Simpsons did it".

"He has the greatest respect for scholars and technical experts who have mastered necessary skills that he himself lacks. He is patient with children, and respectful of the opposite sex. The manly man romances women he finds particularly intriguing, and given the appropriate mutual consents, will do her tenderly and satisfyingly right up the Edith Piaf. And she will love it."

I'm not sure how you played Nico Belic, but this is not how I played Nico.

Also Alex Mercer from prototype. In the cut scenes he comes across as a nice but damaged person, "I only kill what's necessary" Then they give us back control and I become a massive jerk, who takes women up skyscrapers to thrown them at helicopters.

In fairness, I did play Mercer as a decent-but-damaged individual who was in a terrible situation when I played through Prototype: I only engaged the military when absolutely necessary, and tried to minimize civilian casualties wherever/whenever possible (which admittedly would have been easier if they didn't insist on running right in front of my tank when I'm booking down a street at 60 mph).

However, I am fairly certain that I'm in an especially small minority there (and I was less scrupulous in Hard mode, too), so good point anyway.

...

Chris Redfield kinda blurs the line between manly and macho I think.

...

He's built like a macho man in Resi 5 (those ARMS), but his actual behaviour is manly, so yes, I agree. I think he's a great character (in the RE 'verse, anyway: take that as you will).

 

[Maulkin]

In regards to the Space Game:

Why would the engine freeze? Contrary to what Hollywood (or whatever your Australian equivalent is) might say, space is NOT cold. Nor is it hot. It is essentially the perfect insulator; convection heat transfer does not work. Nor would state changes be really practical. The only effective way to get rid of heat in space would be through radiation; concentrating the heat into specific points and emitting it as light and/or storing the energy in some sort of battery. Indeed, your engine wouldn't be liable to freeze up; it'd be more likely to overheat, burning fuel without the ability to dump excess heat in the form of propulsion.

Might I make a suggestion? You could have a stealth mode, where you don't move and don't emit radiation, making you much less detectable, but you run the risk of overheating. If your ship is powered by fusion, you could have a heavy water tank that served as both fuel and emergency coolant in case you run too hot.


Yeah, just a suggestion, take it as you will. Just keep in mind, if you have your engine start 'cooling off' and you aren't lighting up the sensors of every other ship for miles around (can't cool it off without emitting radiation massive amounts of radiation), there might be a problem with the game's realism.

 

[VondeVon]

Well, on the upside, Macho men won't be reproducing too much.

Interesting to hear about your ongoing game. The breaking-on-a-time-limit does sound like a great idea. Do you have any kind of temporary booster at all? Stopping on a dime is nice, but attempting to evade enemy fire when your only options are 'maintain speed or stop' seems a little... frustrating. Maybe boost speed could have the opposite problem of the engines being stopped (ie, rapid increase in temperature) and an even shorter life span...

 

[GhostLad]

On the off-chance that Yahtzee notices this:

Considering your choice of Emgine Temperature as a mechanic in FSG:TG, in order to avoid a common trope that can lead to some jarring raised eyebrows, namely Space Is Cold, may I suggest you flip the terminology?

Space is a terribly good isolator, and if you are anywhere near a star, heat, praradoxically, not cold is your main problem in spacecraft operations. Assuming your craft is powered by some sort of near-eternal atomic/fusion/anti-matter/phlebotinum engine, let the problem with staying still be not that it freezes, but rather that the engine core builds up heat.

Venting the engine champer (by moving, and maybe as a later upgrade through a device that lets you remain stationary longer, if you want to go the route of upgrading crafts), cools it off again. Same mechanic, slightly more realistic reason.

 

[Miral]

Why would the engine freeze? Contrary to what Hollywood (or whatever your Australian equivalent is) might say, space is NOT cold. Nor is it hot. It is essentially the perfect insulator; convection heat transfer does not work. Nor would state changes be really practical. The only effective way to get rid of heat in space would be through radiation; concentrating the heat into specific points and emitting it as light and/or storing the energy in some sort of battery. Indeed, your engine wouldn't be liable to freeze up; it'd be more likely to overheat, burning fuel without the ability to dump excess heat in the form of propulsion.

Might I make a suggestion? You could have a stealth mode, where you don't move and don't emit radiation, making you much less detectable, but you run the risk of overheating. If your ship is powered by fusion, you could have a heavy water tank that served as both fuel and emergency coolant in case you run too hot.

This is pretty much what I was going to suggest. Assuming it has some kind of fusion drive core or something which is always running, and they're *not* throwing ions out the back to keep the ship moving (and not otherwise radiating heat away) it's going to heat up like mad, potentially melting and/or frying everyone in the ship. And if they do start radiating more heat to compensate, their stealth level will be decreasing rapidly (assuming enemies have thermal sensors, which seems likely).

Even with some other kind of drive core that doesn't produce heat or can be instantly switched on or off, radiation is required to get rid of body heat from the crew, or it'll get really uncomfortable.