...and there's the reminder of why my lone ManShep went through ME1 unloved and alone.LiquidGrape said:
ME3: One hell of a retcon...
- Thread starter Alucard788
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Kaiden is the only returning male crew member that I can see, legitimately, being gay. He's so good at keeping stuff to himself--as you find out once you drag his story out of him--that him being gay and keeping in a secret I can understand. All the other male returning characters? Not so much.
Actually yes. He mentions having a crush on a girl as a kid, makes a remark on how cute Liara is, hints at his enjoyment of the strip club, and that's all in ME1. Pretty sure there's more evidence of heterosexuality, but it would only lead back to the point ofveloper said:
1) Anybody can choose to be gay and straight despite having a history of the other
_This, when it comes to humans at least, it correct
2) Kaiden's ME2 speech
_I won't make fun of Kaiden, and I'm not saying he should or shouldn't be gay. All I'm saying is that his speech to Male Shepard on Horizon felt...well...it felt more emotional than anything Ashley had to say, put it that way.
So yeah, Kaiden is hetero, but I guess there are ways he can be gay for 3 without it seeming totally out of left field. However the topic of the thread, the fact that homosexuality was never in ME until now and how they'll try to pull this off, is a much different matter than making a mostly straight character gay.
I'm just...musing? Wishful thinking?CrazyJuan77 said:
Wondering what could have been?
Why jump on my lamenting?
Ha, too true. Either destroy Bioware and destroy anyone who says anything in regards to the gift of the Bioware gods to us mortal being known as "Mass Effect", even if it's not actually a negative thing.Worr Monger said:
Seriously, it's enough to make you despair, isn't it? Instead of a debate you get:
"YOU AREN'T HERE TO SHIT ON BIOWARE?! YOU FUCKING FANBOY!!"
or
"YOU QUESTION HOMOSEXUALITY IN ME3?! YOU FUCKING HOMOPHOBE!!"
I understand not everyone is willing to sift through the entire thread to post a comment, but in the very fuckin least read the OP. Geez
Turian females don't exist anywhere in the mass effect games, that doesn?t mean by lore (they should be as common as the men) they don't exist and if they are suddenly in ME 3 it wouldn't be a plot hole. There are also meant to be far more speices on the citadel that what is shown. Just because you haven?t seen gay or bi men around the place in a situation where you would know they are gay or bi doesn?t mean they don't exist either and it could simply be less common. Most people don't go around shouting their sexuality off the rooftops. There all of a sudden being a gay man would not be a pothole. If they make a former romancable squadmate (like Kaidan) bi with no explanation at all then it could arguably be a plot hole simply because if he is bi why would he only romance femshep in ME1 but even that could be fixed with just a little bit of explanation. Although as far as I?m aware they are making new characters for the S/S romances anyway. I don?t know why you are overcomplicating the issue.Alucard788 said:
Where has it said they literally don't exist? Just because we've never seen them doesn't mean they don't exists o.oAlucard788 said:I am a gay man.Yosharian said:Yes I do realize that is part of the reason as to why they are doing this, but the point I'm tying to make is this.
Int the context of the 'world' of ME3 gay men do not exist in any way, shape, or form. At all...they just do not exist. So how are they going to re-gear to story so that (supposidly) it's always been there.
Thats what I'm trying to say.
I think the idea is to shut up the people who've been crying out for including it
at least more so than to cause people who don't to start doing the complaints
not sure how retcon or canon works or doesn't work in a game where there are multiple ways to go about it anyway :]
I mean I'll be continuing my game save as I've playing before, but I guess some people love change?
at least more so than to cause people who don't to start doing the complaints
not sure how retcon or canon works or doesn't work in a game where there are multiple ways to go about it anyway :]
I mean I'll be continuing my game save as I've playing before, but I guess some people love change?
Ok, seriously. WTF is up with so many people demanding gay-relationship options for the Mass Effect series? Are there seriously that many gay gamers who play XBOX? I know alot of people on XBOX LIVE call each other "fag" all the time, but I didn't think they actually MEANT it. Have I been so closed off from other people I haven't noticed this aspect becoming so huge and integral to video gaming community? Or is this just a bunch of trolls who want to make a gay character "for the lulz"?
The fact that Bioware made them look like hot-sexy females was probably because it would the game sell better.
As several Asari characters --Liara included-- mentioned in the first Mass Effect, Asari are mono-gendered. They are not female, or male. They appear to humans, as females, because that is the way humans are used to their females resembling (except the blue skin and tentacles heads...God that sounded weird...).Alucard788 said:
The fact that Bioware made them look like hot-sexy females was probably because it would the game sell better.
All I ever wanted was a story based discussion on how things might or would have gone down within the context of the world. Or something like that. T_TIan Caronia said:
Like some kinda...imaginative...speculation....thing....
One can wish...
I read the thread title and told myself "I hope this isn't going to be about the new romance options."
Son, I am disappoint.
Okay, the fact is that sexuality is usually an unknown variable from an external standpoint. Especially for Mass Effect's men. There are near-endless ways to make M/M options work for skilled writers, and it's important to remember that an absence of proof does not equal proof of absence.
I expect at least one Bi The Way moment.
Son, I am disappoint.
Okay, the fact is that sexuality is usually an unknown variable from an external standpoint. Especially for Mass Effect's men. There are near-endless ways to make M/M options work for skilled writers, and it's important to remember that an absence of proof does not equal proof of absence.
I expect at least one Bi The Way moment.
I think of it like I thought of Dragon Age 2...
It's not like every character was just waiting for you to romance the so they could pick a sexuality... I think it's more like, if you romance Anders as a man, he is gay. If you romance him as a woman, he is straight. They are two different continuities, like alternate realities.
If you romanced Kaidan as a woman in ME1, he's always been straight. If you romance him as a guy in ME3, he's always been gay but he never mentioned it before.
It's not like every character was just waiting for you to romance the so they could pick a sexuality... I think it's more like, if you romance Anders as a man, he is gay. If you romance him as a woman, he is straight. They are two different continuities, like alternate realities.
If you romanced Kaidan as a woman in ME1, he's always been straight. If you romance him as a guy in ME3, he's always been gay but he never mentioned it before.
To each his own and whatnot, but are you serious? What Second Party Developer's games were YOU playing? The characters are my FAVOURITE part of Bioware games. The Party banter in Dragon Age, the Loyalty Mission development of Mass Effect... Zevran, Allistair, Tali and Samara are more important to me than almost any book/film character.kman123 said:
What? So you weren't given the option in the first two. You could've just not romanced anyone. Or you could just romance someone new. The writers probably aren't going to address it in the game because in the realm of galaxy killing robots, homosexuality (or the fact that it is now possible) is fairly bottom-rung in the priorities chart. But why couldn't they do it before, and now they can? Because Bioware decided that now you can. Besides, if you have the PC version, you can mod it to allow gay/lesbian romances. If you don't, then have fun with Shepards newfound sexuality.
Aren't the homosexual characters NEW characters? Kaidan didn't swing that way before, making it to the third game isn't going to change that.
I don't know how they'll do it, and I don't really care all that much (unless they do the whole "Everyone's just bisexual" thing, that's kind of odd), but I would just have everyone do their own thing and just say, "Well, you've just never picked up a gay squadmate" or maybe "Zaeed just wasn't that into you."
I don't know how they'll do it, and I don't really care all that much (unless they do the whole "Everyone's just bisexual" thing, that's kind of odd), but I would just have everyone do their own thing and just say, "Well, you've just never picked up a gay squadmate" or maybe "Zaeed just wasn't that into you."
I'd have agreed with that up until playing Dragon Age II - they really pulled it off well there. Flame the game all you like for the copied dungeons, but the characters are just great.kman123 said:
One of my favorite things in Mass Effect 2 is you can try and romance Samara...
... and she REJECTS you.
Why is this important? Because she draws a line. She says no. She has affection for you, but is unwilling to go to the next level. She ends it before it can begin and outright states her views of sex and romance, saying it's not even her code that forbids it - it's all her decision. And her decision is not to do it.
That is IMPORTANT for character growth. It shows that she has her own personal standard, whether you agree with her or not, and she's not going to just drop her pants because you tell her to.
Kaiden in ME1 expresses confusion and even acts upset if Female Shepard romances both him and Liara. "I didn't realize you were a.... that you prefer other women....", he states bewilderingly. Ashley in ME1 is hyper conservative and religious (they're usually the first to shun homosexual activity).
My point being, you can play Shepard as gay as you like, but it's making every character omni-sexual is bad character development. A character should have a preference, whether it's brunettes or apple pie or Donnie Darko, about the things they like or dislike or have no interest in at all. Sexuality is a big part of what defines people, and painting everyone with a broad brush, especially at this stage of the game, dilutes them as individuals and clumps them together as mere romance stats to arbitrarily tweak without diving into the heart of why they would care, why you would care, and why both of you, either straight or gay, would "click".
And I say that as a bisexual woman, one that wished Tali was romanceable for Female Shepard. I have a male account just for her. I ended up hooking up with Garrus with my FemShep. But one of the things that works is both of them have their preferences and state their interests, whether Garrus is bragging about his success with the ladies (a few times in fact), or Tali confesses her romantic urges for a specifically MALE Shepard in a very touching, revelatory scene (that outright doesn't exist for female Shepard).
To alter the characters so every single one of them is bisexual, with no "standard" or "preference" like Samara showed so deftly, the characters become blank slates that you customize just as much as you customize your main character.
And that's problematic, for me at least. My character in Mass Effect is my character, either gay or straight or, in my case, bisexual. But she reacts to the world around her, she has to adapt to the personalities surrounding her. She can soften the rage of Jack, but she's not going to make Jack wear pink dresses and act super-feminine. She can be nice to Tali, but Tali just prefers "dashing, strong commanders". It's very odd to think that Shepard has such godly power to just alter the sexuality of everyone around her to suit her interests, making Mass Effect less a journey of dealing with the harsh circumstances you're given and more a harem fantasy that, in an odd way, taps into that old, alarmist Fox News story about how you can "have sex with anything".
Basically, I AM upset that Tali won't sleep with my FemShep. But I don't want them to change that. Her not jumping in bed with me is an essential part of who she is; it defines her preferences, interests, standards, positives, and flaws. I don't have to agree with her either; where we disagree (on sexuality or dealing with the Geth) is what makes her believable. She's a dear friend to my Shepard, a girl with whom mine has an unrequited crush (just like Samara), but like reality, I have to just deal with it, focus on the bigger picture, cope, and perhaps find love and happiness somewhere else with someone else (Liara or Garrus... hmmm...)
That's how you write a good character, and I don't oppose homosexuality in Mass Effect at all... but I am concerned about the integrity of the prior characters. Even with my interests, it would be odd and disconcerting if Tali suddenly wanted to sleep with me, if Wrex wanted me to bear his children, or if Thane decided in the last few months of his life that he actually prefers men and his loving relationship with his wife was all a mistake.
Like most fans, I'd just want consistency. I'm sure Bioware, in all their infinite wisdom and power, could have just created a new character to fill the bisexual void for men ('cause us ladies have Liara and Kelly). That's my stance, and I won't say it's correct, but it's just my opinion on character development between games. It CAN be done, but it has to be done carefully. If not? Well, it just will ring hollow. And bisexual and gay individuals deserve more than table scraps and compromises that seem insincere.
... and she REJECTS you.
Why is this important? Because she draws a line. She says no. She has affection for you, but is unwilling to go to the next level. She ends it before it can begin and outright states her views of sex and romance, saying it's not even her code that forbids it - it's all her decision. And her decision is not to do it.
That is IMPORTANT for character growth. It shows that she has her own personal standard, whether you agree with her or not, and she's not going to just drop her pants because you tell her to.
Kaiden in ME1 expresses confusion and even acts upset if Female Shepard romances both him and Liara. "I didn't realize you were a.... that you prefer other women....", he states bewilderingly. Ashley in ME1 is hyper conservative and religious (they're usually the first to shun homosexual activity).
My point being, you can play Shepard as gay as you like, but it's making every character omni-sexual is bad character development. A character should have a preference, whether it's brunettes or apple pie or Donnie Darko, about the things they like or dislike or have no interest in at all. Sexuality is a big part of what defines people, and painting everyone with a broad brush, especially at this stage of the game, dilutes them as individuals and clumps them together as mere romance stats to arbitrarily tweak without diving into the heart of why they would care, why you would care, and why both of you, either straight or gay, would "click".
And I say that as a bisexual woman, one that wished Tali was romanceable for Female Shepard. I have a male account just for her. I ended up hooking up with Garrus with my FemShep. But one of the things that works is both of them have their preferences and state their interests, whether Garrus is bragging about his success with the ladies (a few times in fact), or Tali confesses her romantic urges for a specifically MALE Shepard in a very touching, revelatory scene (that outright doesn't exist for female Shepard).
To alter the characters so every single one of them is bisexual, with no "standard" or "preference" like Samara showed so deftly, the characters become blank slates that you customize just as much as you customize your main character.
And that's problematic, for me at least. My character in Mass Effect is my character, either gay or straight or, in my case, bisexual. But she reacts to the world around her, she has to adapt to the personalities surrounding her. She can soften the rage of Jack, but she's not going to make Jack wear pink dresses and act super-feminine. She can be nice to Tali, but Tali just prefers "dashing, strong commanders". It's very odd to think that Shepard has such godly power to just alter the sexuality of everyone around her to suit her interests, making Mass Effect less a journey of dealing with the harsh circumstances you're given and more a harem fantasy that, in an odd way, taps into that old, alarmist Fox News story about how you can "have sex with anything".
Basically, I AM upset that Tali won't sleep with my FemShep. But I don't want them to change that. Her not jumping in bed with me is an essential part of who she is; it defines her preferences, interests, standards, positives, and flaws. I don't have to agree with her either; where we disagree (on sexuality or dealing with the Geth) is what makes her believable. She's a dear friend to my Shepard, a girl with whom mine has an unrequited crush (just like Samara), but like reality, I have to just deal with it, focus on the bigger picture, cope, and perhaps find love and happiness somewhere else with someone else (Liara or Garrus... hmmm...)
That's how you write a good character, and I don't oppose homosexuality in Mass Effect at all... but I am concerned about the integrity of the prior characters. Even with my interests, it would be odd and disconcerting if Tali suddenly wanted to sleep with me, if Wrex wanted me to bear his children, or if Thane decided in the last few months of his life that he actually prefers men and his loving relationship with his wife was all a mistake.
Like most fans, I'd just want consistency. I'm sure Bioware, in all their infinite wisdom and power, could have just created a new character to fill the bisexual void for men ('cause us ladies have Liara and Kelly). That's my stance, and I won't say it's correct, but it's just my opinion on character development between games. It CAN be done, but it has to be done carefully. If not? Well, it just will ring hollow. And bisexual and gay individuals deserve more than table scraps and compromises that seem insincere.
Perhaps romancing Kaidain was just wishful thinking on my part (I can't help it...he's just so cute...or a video game character). I just never wanted my idle musings to become such an angry firestorm.
I thought that maybe folks could help me think of 'how' they were going to do it...not why or should they...but how.
I also never said I had a problem with it, anywhere, and my own confession to being a gay man has mostly fallen on deaf ears with some even accusing me of being a homophobe for just...asking about this.
It's madness.
I'm running out of replies or things to say...I'm running out of responses...I don't know what to say anymore, because for the most part, this seems to cause more anger, than it's worth talking about.
Oh and to all of you saying 'it shouldn't matter' or 'why make a big deal out of this'. Games are a fantasy right? An escape. You fellas get lots of scape with sexy females and sexy scenes, revealing outfits, and copious amounts of bare boobies. Why is it suddenly 'not so important' when it's shoe on other foot time?
I'm not accusing but...I just don't get it.
...and all I wanted to do was muse about a plot point.
I thought that maybe folks could help me think of 'how' they were going to do it...not why or should they...but how.
I also never said I had a problem with it, anywhere, and my own confession to being a gay man has mostly fallen on deaf ears with some even accusing me of being a homophobe for just...asking about this.
It's madness.
I'm running out of replies or things to say...I'm running out of responses...I don't know what to say anymore, because for the most part, this seems to cause more anger, than it's worth talking about.
Oh and to all of you saying 'it shouldn't matter' or 'why make a big deal out of this'. Games are a fantasy right? An escape. You fellas get lots of scape with sexy females and sexy scenes, revealing outfits, and copious amounts of bare boobies. Why is it suddenly 'not so important' when it's shoe on other foot time?
I'm not accusing but...I just don't get it.
...and all I wanted to do was muse about a plot point.