"Medicine" in America

[Ren3004]

Even though I suck at economics (I just can't figure out how that gentleman who e-mailed me can use the ?1000 I gave him to get his own money back), this is the way I see things:

1) Healthcare is incredibly expensive. So expensive that most middle-class people probably couldn't afford a trip to the ER that involves getting a CT scan, or a surgery (last I heard, just keeping the OR functioning cost about ?1000 a day).

2) Unlike consoles, cars, or fancy clothes, healthcare isn't something you can really choose not to get. If you're sick, you either get care, or risk having a serious disease that kills you.

3) Anyone can get sick, and you can't predict when or where. Poor people possibly get sick more often and have less resources to get treatment.

So, here's what most countries do. Everyone pays a little money for healthcare, less that what treatments actually cost. That way, if you get sick, you know that you can get care and won't be left dying on the sidewalk because you forgot your credit card.

"But", I hear you say with my superhuman hearing and ability to ask imaginary questions, "What if I don't get sick? Then I'm just giving my hard-earned money for some other schmuck who couldn't even stay healthy! He may be a murderer, or a sex offender, or even... *shudder* an illegal immigrant!"
Well, sir, congratulations on not getting sick this year! Now go ahead and try to do it for 30 to 80 more years, depending on the life expectancy in your country. If you think that's easy, please refer to point 3) above.
When you do get sick, I'm guessing you won't want other people judging whether or not you deserve to get healthcare.

And here's what the US did. Instead of paying a little more taxes, you have to pay for healthcare out of your pocket. Since most people can't afford that, private companies built smaller versions of the system above, called insurance. A lot of people pay for health insurance every year even if they don't get sick, so that if they they do, the company will have enough money to pay for them. This would be great if companies didn't overcharge or outright deny coverage for people who don't have a lot of money, or already have some disease. You'll recognize these groups as those who will most likely need healthcare. So, those rich, healthy folks have access to great healthcare (until they actually need it, when the insurance company will probably start charging them more) while that poor family has no money for a 6-month long TB treatment and all those elderly with diabetes and hypertension won't even get aspirin if they have a heart attack. It's better than having to pay for everything out of your pocket, but not by much.

Now, I don't know about you, but as a patient, I'd rather know that I can get medical treatment when I need to. As a doctor, I'd rather not have to resort to trickery to help people or refuse them treatment outright. Even if it means giving a little part of my money every year that other people use to not die.

 

[Norithics]

America needs to take another look at Healthcare. I mean, maybe its a cultural thing, but i find it obscene to be charging for medical services. For things you have no control of - falling off a ladder, catching a virus, etc... Are you seriously asking for a credit card before you board the ambulance?

It's a cultural problem, entirely. We don't have object permanence when it comes to money- if we see it going away now, we assume it'll never come back. Similarly, if we don't spend it now, we assume it'll go away anyway, because from the cradle to the grave we have a million different people trying to bleed us dry. So what comes out of that is an insular and paranoid misunderstanding about how public services work. When Jethro is told we'd like to take a little money from him in taxes, he screams that this will mean he can't buy medicine for his daughter- not realizing that he could never buy medicine for his daughter, and only paying that little bit into the system can give him the ability to give her that medicine.

Because that's what government does. It leverages against anarchy as best it can.

Captcha: "Ready when you need it." Exactly.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Honestly, I find the concept of Medicine and medical attention being a "Business" fucking abhorrent. You have to be a real Asshole to charge someone a ridiculous amount of money after saving their life.

Why? It is a business. No different whatsoever from lawyer, CEO or teacher.

Besides, you can imagine what's going through those doctors heads: "You deserve this. You went through 6 years of school so you could earn shitloads. You were reading books when the rest of your highschool class was getting drunk and laid. You're smarter than everyone else... etc etc"

He's saying that medical care shouldn't be considered a business, but something that exists to help others, not a profitable enterprise, but a sacrifice to help those in need. We don't pay teachers a fortune to place our very futures on their backs, why doctors for managing our present? If you say its because they have a tougher job, then BS, raise teacher salaries and standards to match, then we might get some achievers out of schools instead of unmotivated people with no drive to excel

Who is "we"? Doctors in communist countries get paid the same as teachers. It's nothing to do with helping people - all jobs help people, from drug dealer to politician. Otherwise they wouldn't be jobs.

The idea that a doctor is somehow helping people more than some other profession is revolting to me. There's no charity or sacrifice there - never was and never will be. They may not realize this at the time they are in the process of qualifying, but they do 10 or 20 years later, so they see nothing wrong with earning obscene fees. And there is nothing wrong with it. It's just supply and demand.

 

[Macgyvercas]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Daystar, we spend more on defense than the next 26 countries on the list combined, 24 of which are allies. We could cut the defense budget in half and be fine.

Also, according to some people I went to school with, apparently believing that we should focus on healthcare and education rather than socking all spare money into the military makes me a filthy liberal. If so...fucking guilty as charged.

And guess who would be hurt first if we cut our military spending: our allies. The first thing to go if we were to significantly scale back our military would be our foreign bases which not only bring in a ton of money for the local economies, but also provide de facto defense, meaning more of the ally's resources are freed up for other things. I'm thinking we're in a time where the last one doesn't matter as much in some places like Germany due to the peaceful status quo and the ally country wouldn't feel the need to divert funds to fill the hole left by American forces. Besides the votes people in congress get by pretending to be pro-military and filling up its budget every year, they really don't want to deal with the political fallout that would ensue if we started pulling up stakes in other countries, no matter how much I wish they'd bite the bullet and do it.

Personally, I don't understand why we feel the need to be the world's police force when all we primarily should be concerned about is our own borders.

 

[Ryotknife]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Daystar, we spend more on defense than the next 26 countries on the list combined, 24 of which are allies. We could cut the defense budget in half and be fine.

Also, according to some people I went to school with, apparently believing that we should focus on healthcare and education rather than socking all spare money into the military makes me a filthy liberal. If so...fucking guilty as charged.

And guess who would be hurt first if we cut our military spending: our allies. The first thing to go if we were to significantly scale back our military would be our foreign bases which not only bring in a ton of money for the local economies, but also provide de facto defense, meaning more of the ally's resources are freed up for other things. I'm thinking we're in a time where the last one doesn't matter as much in some places like Germany due to the peaceful status quo and the ally country wouldn't feel the need to divert funds to fill the hole left by American forces. Besides the votes people in congress get by pretending to be pro-military and filling up its budget every year, they really don't want to deal with the political fallout that would ensue if we started pulling up stakes in other countries, no matter how much I wish they'd bite the bullet and do it.

Personally, I don't understand why we feel the need to be the world's police force when all we primarily should be concerned about is our own borders.

Because we are the best candidate for the job? If the US pulled back into its borders, who will keep China in check? Australia? Not bloody likely. China would then probably invade Taiwan and Japan seeing how its still holding a massive grudge against both (not to mention lucrative targets who wont be able to put up much of a fight).

Not to mention we are probably the only country that can have an army in any location in the world within a week. The UK is the only other country who might be able to fit the bill. Even the French in the Mali intervention needed the US help to get there.

Hey, I would not mind if the UN was actually capable of intervening in conflicts without mostly relying on the US or UK.

 

[BOOM headshot65]

Part of it is we don't have set prices. A surgery in San Francisco can cost 5 times what it would cost in Alabama, even if both doctors are equally trained and skilled.

Which is something that I was going to point out myself. Her in my home state of Kansas, some of these surguries that everyone complains about being so expensive are less than $5,000 if you are really unlucky. And my brother has had to get stiches and such plenty of times because of sports and cutting himself with knives because he was being a F**king moron, and they have never been more than $500, tops. Hardly breaking the bank. It all depends on where you live. If you live in San Francisco, where it cost about $4,000 for an apartment that is barely bigger than a jail-cell (seriously), then you can expect a hospital bill of $100,000, because the cost of living is so high, where as if you live in a state like Kansas, were everything is Dirt Cheap and that $4,000 could pay the morgage on a McMansion, you can expect low cost(on everything actually).

 

[Charli]

So the problem isn't insurance companies a lack of a health care system. The problem is that those guys in the Ambulance, the doctors that treated you, and the hospital administrators, are all a bunch of greedy assholes. If the government wants to help us it should bring the hammer down on all the doctors and Ambulance drivers. Force them to do their job for a set price or go out of business.

Or the government step in and pay everyones healthcare with tax payers money. Sure you pay more tax but you know that when you go to hospital you dont have to pay a penny to get healthcare

The relevant question is this, why don't you pay for your healthcare out of your own pocket. You don't because you cant afford it. In America at least, the cost of healthcare is so high that nobody can afford to pay it. Nobody can afford to spend $2000 to sleep in a hospital bed for one night.

This is why universal healthcare wont work, at least for America. How is the government supposed to use our money to pay for something we cant afford? If their isn't enough money in our pockets to pay the bill then how can the government, which gets all of its money from our pockets, afford to pay the bill?

If laws regulating the extremely over inflated costs of everything would be kicked into congress and actually DEALT with. They would be able to fish out who is abusing your system, because I tell you now for a fact, there are people making utterly embarrassing dosh off the backs of this tidy little circle of crap involving insurance, medical and supplier companies. It's not so much the staff at these hospitals, it's what they've been instructed and probably close to manhandled into doing.

That's why you pay more than anyone fees-ably should be able to afford, because it's outright thievery wrapped up in 'insurance/trading/supplier'. Diving it further out into a tax and government supervision, and then regulating supply and demand, and monitoring doctor/surgeon/nurse/entire hospital inventory and pay would benefit everyone long term. The way America's system works now is one cotton swab is probably worth about 10 dollars by the time the 'system' has processed it's use.

However the ones who've crafted this neat little cartel and don't want anything to change or say bye bye to their lucrative lifestyles and power. And guess what, most of them probably are quite friendly with the people who call the shots and votes. So... Sucks, until you guys demand with torch and pitchfork, this loony system will continue in earnest.

Universal healthcare is GOOD, but you have to go all the way. ALL the way, with it. And someone has to have an iron will and unshakable resolve (and probably a few bodyguards) to push it through.
You have to remember, if 10% of the population gets 'sick' (And that's being extremely generous), 100% of tax payers cover it, then the cost IS coverable. By far. You all chip in to make sure you all stay healthy, whether that is tomorrow, or 20 years from that point.

And most will agree that's a good thing. If not, I do have to ask what kind of utter blindness to empathy drug you've been ingesting and only pray that one day you find yourself in the exact situation that this could have easily remedied. Whether it's you, or a close family member.

 

[BabySinclair]

This thread makes me very sad face. What part of free market equals competition equals reduction in price has been forgotten?

http://www.surgerycenterok.com/about/

Interesting little project. I hope it takes off.

Except free market has been in effect for over 100 years and the prices have only gotten higher. Insurance rates have increase and everything from surgery, tests, ambulance rides, bed to sleep in, and even the bed sheets (billed separately) have gone up in price. Free market competition's failed. It always will for non-elective, non-regulated markets. Hospital will bill exorbitant amounts because they know some won't pay because they have no money or insurance, some will pay back some due to insurance working the cost down, and some will pay without insurance and be crippled economically.

In a perfect society the free market works perfectly, supply and demand are perfectly balanced establishing a fair prices and wages for those products and services. Then again in a perfect society socialism works and since neither has ever worked before a middle-ground has to be found.

 

[chinangel]

An ambulance is not a fucking taxi and healthcare is not a money making enterprise. If you lived in a civilised country your healthcare would be paid for in taxes and government funding

Oh Canada...

no seriously i can't really comment on this. Last time i went to the emergency room, my OHIP paid for it entirely, the only thing i have to pay for is my medications

 

[Siege_TF]

It's odd that America is dead set on this system because of a few bombasts who shout at the top of their lungs that they shouldn't need to be paying other's medical bills. Naturally these are people who easily afford medical insurance of their own (or are simply ignorant). The idea that you and everyone else in your country living at or above the poverty line can pay a pittance every month and not need to worry about it, just like every other developed country is communistic bordering on facist!

One of the first things I learned in Sociology is that whether or not a country can be considered civilized or barbaric is by how it's government treats it's most vulnerable. The old, young, poor, sick, animals, and incarcerated in no particular order. Not technology, not military, and that paints a picture of America The Mighty (And Nothing Else) to this ignorant Canuck.

 

[freaper]

I punched a window when I was 12. I had two deep cuts, one near my wrist, which could've lacerated the tendons, and a deeper one near my elbow. A fifteen-minute ambulance ride to the hospital, two hours of surgery and 30 minutes of plastering later, it cost my parents almost nothing. I don't even want to imagine what would've happened had we not had that proper healthcare.

 

[Addertellstales]

This is why America terrifies me.
Thank God for the NHS of the UK. Although at the rate we're going that won't be around for much longer.

 

[Greg White]

It's odd that America is dead set on this system because of a few bombasts who shout at the top of their lungs that they shouldn't need to be paying other's medical bills. Naturally these are people who easily afford medical insurance of their own (or are simply ignorant). The idea that you and everyone else in your country living at or above the poverty line can pay a pittance every month and not need to worry about it, just like every other developed country is communistic bordering on facist!

One of the first things I learned in Sociology is that whether or not a country can be considered civilized or barbaric is by how it's government treats it's most vulnerable. The old, young, poor, sick, animals, and incarcerated in no particular order. Not technology, not military, and that paints a picture of America The Mighty (And Nothing Else) to this ignorant Canuck.

Sorry, but not everyone likes the idea of the same group that formed FEMA being in charge of health care.

Also, anyone in the military already knows what universal health care looks like: long lines, long wait times, hurried diagnosis, and maybe they'll figure out what's wrong with you.

Meanwhile we can go to a civilian doctor with almost no wait time and they can likely tell us exactly what's wrong and how to fix it that day instead of 8 visits later.

I'd much rather stick with insurance companies that compete with one another and doctors who have incentive to be good at what they do if they want to keep patients around.

 

[Doclector]

Hold up, hold up, hold up.

You went for a haircut, and ending up with your "meat hanging out"?

That must have been one terrible barber.

Seriously though, what the fuck happened?

As for the healthcare thing, yeah, it's ridiculous that they don't have universal healthcare. There's just no excuse. You cannot have situations where you're lying on a gurney bleeding and being asked about special offers. That's just fucking wrong.

Hell, one of my friends recently caught a really bad bug. I mean REALLY bad. Fevers, vomiting, found it hard to eat, hard to just swallow. I asked him why he didn't go to the doctor, forgetting he was in america. He replied: "The doctor's too expensive. They'll charge you hundreds for a ten minute check up." That's fucking ridiculous.

 

[Smooth Operator]

That would be the difference between actual health care and a business, one is looking out for your well being the other is looking out for theirs.

Sadly that same nickel and dime US system is creeping into our country as well because the insurance cunts figured out that under EU law our government is not allowed to influence their business and by extent they can not affect their allocation of health insurance money.
So suddenly our entire health care budget is up for grabs to the slimiest brokers who can weasel their way in, and while those fuckers are showing profits like never before hospitals are grossly underfunded to the point some can't even pay basic bills / paychecks and rely solely on the understanding that keeping people alive is kind of fucking important.

 

[chikusho]

Also, anyone in the military already knows what universal health care looks like: long lines, long wait times, hurried diagnosis, and maybe they'll figure out what's wrong with you.

Meanwhile we can go to a civilian doctor with almost no wait time and they can likely tell us exactly what's wrong and how to fix it that day instead of 8 visits later.

I'd much rather stick with insurance companies that compete with one another and doctors who have incentive to be good at what they do if they want to keep patients around.

I'd prefer long lines and long wait times for non-emergency health issues rather than being treated as a bottomless money well, where the people who are supposed to help you are using the fear and desperation of your situation to up-sell you on unnecessary treatments and push pills and medicines on you to get a pay-check from pharmaceutical companies. Especially considering that all hospitals are basically making up the prices for treatments, pills, and hidden/extra charges as they go along.
Not getting indebted for the rest of your life because you had an accident is preferable as well.

Saying "it's much better to meet a doctor straight away," is basically the same as "it's so good that poor people are suffering and dying so that I can get health care in a timely manner."

 

[Smeatza]

I wouldn't complain, The United States is doing pretty damn well with healthcare compared to the rest of the third world.

I can't remember what show I stole that joke off.

 

[Nieroshai]

At least you got treated right away. You could've been put on a months-long list. In exchange for everything having red tape and ads, you get quick service. What other place does that and people begrudgingly deal with it because it's technically better? Oh yeah, the internet. And I think not having to live with an easily treatable but serious injury is a little more important than watching Gangnam Style.

 

[Nieroshai]

Also, anyone in the military already knows what universal health care looks like: long lines, long wait times, hurried diagnosis, and maybe they'll figure out what's wrong with you.

Meanwhile we can go to a civilian doctor with almost no wait time and they can likely tell us exactly what's wrong and how to fix it that day instead of 8 visits later.

I'd much rather stick with insurance companies that compete with one another and doctors who have incentive to be good at what they do if they want to keep patients around.

I'd prefer long lines and long wait times for non-emergency health issues rather than being treated as a bottomless money well, where the people who are supposed to help you are using the fear and desperation of your situation to up-sell you on unnecessary treatments and push pills and medicines on you to get a pay-check from pharmaceutical companies. Especially considering that all hospitals are basically making up the prices for treatments, pills, and hidden/extra charges as they go along.
Not getting indebted for the rest of your life because you had an accident is preferable as well.

Saying "it's much better to meet a doctor straight away," is basically the same as "it's so good that poor people are suffering and dying so that I can get health care in a timely manner."

Money is transient and only worth what you can get with it. Freedom and health are both genuinely valuable, and many would argue, essential. Even so, fun fact: in the US you will be treated regardless of your ability to pay, and there is a source of free insurance that is actually pretty adequate (I was on it myself): Medicaid, or in Arizona, AHCCCS. All you have to do is sign up. None go without that aren't fooled into thinking they aren't allowed to ask unless they have deep pockets. Hell, part of the controversy in Arizona is that some locals don't like Mexican illegal immigrants using our hospitals for free. Because, they simply ARE using them for free. Because they can. I mention it solely to make that point: America isn't this nasty place where you can only get health care and education if you're rich. I get both simply because I go through the effort to ASK.

Man, I get sick of people bashing others' country, party, religion, school,favorite color, what have you. Not because of legitimate gripes or disagreements, but because they believe as a "fact" nasty rumors and political propaganda, and don't bother to find out the other side. But hey, this is the internet. Everyone's a dick here, including me. I just wish someone would ask, "hey, X, is it true what Y says about Z?" It's not hard, and it would go a long way.

 

[Greg White]

Also, anyone in the military already knows what universal health care looks like: long lines, long wait times, hurried diagnosis, and maybe they'll figure out what's wrong with you.

Meanwhile we can go to a civilian doctor with almost no wait time and they can likely tell us exactly what's wrong and how to fix it that day instead of 8 visits later.

I'd much rather stick with insurance companies that compete with one another and doctors who have incentive to be good at what they do if they want to keep patients around.

I'd prefer long lines and long wait times for non-emergency health issues rather than being treated as a bottomless money well, where the people who are supposed to help you are using the fear and desperation of your situation to up-sell you on unnecessary treatments and push pills and medicines on you to get a pay-check from pharmaceutical companies. Especially considering that all hospitals are basically making up the prices for treatments, pills, and hidden/extra charges as they go along.
Not getting indebted for the rest of your life because you had an accident is preferable as well.

Saying "it's much better to meet a doctor straight away," is basically the same as "it's so good that poor people are suffering and dying so that I can get health care in a timely manner."

Good health insurance covers all that, so I'm not seeing your point.