"Medicine" in America

[Syzygy23]

It seems to work here in the UK and a lot of other countries. Sure the system is far from perfect and the wards arent like a five star hotel but it does the job. What is america doing so wrong that we are doing right...or vice versa?

Healthcare is just insanely expensive here, way more than any other country. I could guess at some reason why but I'm sure the root causes are a topic of discussion for more educated individuals. I just have to leave it by saying "That's how it is here"

It's why the analogies to other countries with working healthcare systems don't always work. The government cant afford to provide all its citizens with a free MRIs when an MRI costs 10 times as much as in other countries. I think its been shown that America actually spends more on healthcare than many other countries yet has less coverage, all because of prices.

Capitalism. Plain and simple.

Get as much money while providing as little as possible to maximize profits.

I love my country (Well, Washington state specifically) But I wouldn't MIND more socialism. Capitalism is good for the economy, no doubt. But I would venture that currently, we have too much of a good thing going on. WAY too much of a good thing.

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Daystar, we spend more on defense than the next 26 countries on the list combined, 24 of which are allies. We could cut the defense budget in half and be fine.

Also, according to some people I went to school with, apparently believing that we should focus on healthcare and education rather than socking all spare money into the military makes me a filthy liberal. If so...fucking guilty as charged.

Do you ever wish you had like, 100 pairs of arms so you could choke some sense into more than 1 person at a time? Whenever someone throws that "liberal" label around, I get that sort of feeling.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Reason A universal healthcare won't work in the US: Government bureaucracy and HIPAA. It won't be medical professionals deciding whether or not you need Test A thats really important and can possibly be the difference between a treatment that will work, and one that will kill you, it will be bureaucrats who only see numbers and pricing who decide your fate. This is how medicaid/medicare already works and it is a crap system. My wife has disability and she has had to get 5 tests done in order to get the one test her PRIMARY care doctor and GI doctor both have said she really needs. The other tests were redundant and unnecessary to her condition, but it was required by the insurance she has through Medicare/Medicaid.
This will not get better with a "new" law. Oh and HIPAA will go out the window when government runs healthcare. That means they will have access to all your medical records without needing your permission. If you had/have a problem with PRISM, this is also invasion of privacy and a strong smack in the face of the 4th amendment.
The other reason that government can't run healthcare in the US: Name a government program that works efficiently, that doesn't screw people over and doesn't hemorrhage money. BTW: The military is extremely inefficient when it comes to money spending, and screws people over all the time. SEE VA benefits.
Oh yeah, and the cherry on top of all this, no government healthcare will ever affect the people who voted for the laws to pass, aka Congress, the Senate and the White House. If they won't use it you know its shit.

 

[Madgamer13]

EMT operators seeking a subscription to their emergency service? Surely that goes against- Oh wait, we're talking about American Healthcare?

Well, you'll just have to get used to dying slowly in hospital because you cannot pay for your life saving operation. Just be glad that they didn't do it anyway and lock you into life long bankruptcy. Oh, wait.

I do not envy Obama and the state funded healthcare system he is attempting to implement, switching from a cutthroat business model to a public service model is quite a change indeed.

 

[Paragon Fury]

a trip to the hospital and 6 stitches later

May I ask the nature of your injury?

Abrasions to right elbow and knee. Laceration to left palm requiring 5 stitches (I mistakenly put 6 earlier, but counted this morning when I put clean dressing on it) to close.

Was biking to got get my hair cut when I tried to brake to let a car finish turning into the street in front of me. Hit a piece of debris which locked up my front wheel and caused me to fall.

 

[Albino Boo]

Everyone pays for medical care its just a question of when. Ambulances cost money to buy and run and the people that operate them need to make a living, all of which costs money. The rest is how and when you pay.

The other question is "how much?"

There is no "fix" for the healthcare system in the United States. It's too expensive because of the sue-happy nature of the country which can result in malpractice lawsuits of incredible proportions. This requires doctors and hospitals to take out professional liability insurance which, due to the aforementioned sue-happy climate is VERY expensive.

If that were true, the caps on liability from a decade ago would have impacted cost.

They didn't.

The problem is the for-profit nature. Most of the money doesn't go into liability, but profits. Let's not utterly delude ourselves.

Last year the the non profit NHS made record provision for medical negligence of £22.7 billion out of annual budget of £108 billion.

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Hell, you don't even need to do that. Take that 5% of the military budget, use to expand the military medical system, and have them also treat civilians.

Then you don't even have to officially make military cutbacks, you're just moving their money around.

The US currently spends 21% of its the federal budget on taxpayer funded health care and 22% on defense. The NHS costs 4x times the UK defence budget and the UK has the fifth largest defence budget in the world. To have a free at the point of use health service you would need to shut down the entire defense budget and some other departments as well.

 

[michael87cn]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Pro tip: while you sound so very smart and like you have such a great idea; civilians have no control over that stuff here.

Don't give me bollocks about voting and such nonsense.

You should address your little idea to our government instead; wait, we already have by the thousands.

Really, bravo though on your 'good idea'.

 

[ClockworkPenguin]

Does that make me a Nazi hipster?

"I was being denounced as a genocidal bastard BEFORE it was cool."

I think you need to try to murder at least one ethnicity, and then if anyone complains, get defensive and so you were only doing it ironically, so you are above criticism.

I persecuted a people once, but they're quite obscure, you've probably never heard of them.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Pro tip: while you sound so very smart and like you have such a great idea; civilians have no control over that stuff here.

Don't give me bollocks about voting and such nonsense.

You should address your little idea to our government instead; wait, we already have by the thousands.

Really, bravo though on your 'good idea'.

Thanks for the subtle sarcasm, I'll be sure to note it in here in my diary and take your condescending criticism to heart.

Oh look! A rainbow! Vast amounts of gold, here I come!

 

[LetalisK]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Daystar, we spend more on defense than the next 26 countries on the list combined, 24 of which are allies. We could cut the defense budget in half and be fine.

Also, according to some people I went to school with, apparently believing that we should focus on healthcare and education rather than socking all spare money into the military makes me a filthy liberal. If so...fucking guilty as charged.

And guess who would be hurt first if we cut our military spending: our allies. The first thing to go if we were to significantly scale back our military would be our foreign bases which not only bring in a ton of money for the local economies, but also provide de facto defense, meaning more of the ally's resources are freed up for other things. I'm thinking we're in a time where the last one doesn't matter as much in some places like Germany due to the peaceful status quo and the ally country wouldn't feel the need to divert funds to fill the hole left by American forces. Besides the votes people in congress get by pretending to be pro-military and filling up its budget every year, they really don't want to deal with the political fallout that would ensue if we started pulling up stakes in other countries, no matter how much I wish they'd bite the bullet and do it.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Reason A universal healthcare won't work in the US: Government bureaucracy and HIPAA. It won't be medical professionals deciding whether or not you need Test A thats really important and can possibly be the difference between a treatment that will work, and one that will kill you, it will be bureaucrats who only see numbers and pricing who decide your fate. This is how medicaid/medicare already works and it is a crap system. My wife has disability and she has had to get 5 tests done in order to get the one test her PRIMARY care doctor and GI doctor both have said she really needs. The other tests were redundant and unnecessary to her condition, but it was required by the insurance she has through Medicare/Medicaid.
This will not get better with a "new" law. Oh and HIPAA will go out the window when government runs healthcare. That means they will have access to all your medical records without needing your permission. If you had/have a problem with PRISM, this is also invasion of privacy and a strong smack in the face of the 4th amendment.
The other reason that government can't run healthcare in the US: Name a government program that works efficiently, that doesn't screw people over and doesn't hemorrhage money. BTW: The military is extremely inefficient when it comes to money spending, and screws people over all the time. SEE VA benefits.

If it's not impossible for almost every other western country, why should it be for the US? What's preventing them (in principle) to create structures that would make it work?

You know, many of those health care systems are run by the public sector, and all of them are cheaper, and many yield better results.

 

[davidmc1158_v1legacy]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Daystar, we spend more on defense than the next 26 countries on the list combined, 24 of which are allies. We could cut the defense budget in half and be fine.

Also, according to some people I went to school with, apparently believing that we should focus on healthcare and education rather than socking all spare money into the military makes me a filthy liberal. If so...fucking guilty as charged.

And guess who would be hurt first if we cut our military spending: our allies. The first thing to go if we were to significantly scale back our military would be our foreign bases which not only bring in a ton of money for the local economies, but also provide de facto defense, meaning more of the ally's resources are freed up for other things. I'm thinking we're in a time where the last one doesn't matter as much in some places like Germany due to the peaceful status quo and the ally country wouldn't feel the need to divert funds to fill the hole left by American forces. Besides the votes people in congress get by pretending to be pro-military and filling up its budget every year, they really don't want to deal with the political fallout that would ensue if we started pulling up stakes in other countries, no matter how much I wish they'd bite the bullet and do it.

Let us not forget that the U.S. military budget is also a giant jobs program. Federal handouts and corporate welfare to a number of firms with very influential lobbying groups.

Hell, we've even had military commanders complaining about the unnecessary equipment demanded in the budgets Congress passes. We have so many tanks that large numbers of them are apparently just sitting in storage and will never be used. All because a military contract company has "friends" on the budget committee and can use the leverage of how unemployment in that congressman's/woman's district will go up if they cut the spending.

Private business having undue influence in government. It's never been a good thing, but I have no concrete idea how to cut that influence.

 

[Thedutchjelle]

So the problem isn't insurance companies a lack of a health care system. The problem is that those guys in the Ambulance, the doctors that treated you, and the hospital administrators, are all a bunch of greedy assholes. If the government wants to help us it should bring the hammer down on all the doctors and Ambulance drivers. Force them to do their job for a set price or go out of business.

Or the government step in and pay everyones healthcare with tax payers money. Sure you pay more tax but you know that when you go to hospital you dont have to pay a penny to get healthcare

The relevant question is this, why don't you pay for your healthcare out of your own pocket. You don't because you cant afford it. In America at least, the cost of healthcare is so high that nobody can afford to pay it. Nobody can afford to spend $2000 to sleep in a hospital bed for one night.

This is why universal healthcare wont work, at least for America. How is the government supposed to use our money to pay for something we cant afford? If their isn't enough money in our pockets to pay the bill then how can the government, which gets all of its money from our pockets, afford to pay the bill?

Because not everybody needs the hospital every year. So everybody pays for the need of a few, which makes it affordable for those few.

For me in the Netherlands, there is a "Eigen Risico" (Own Risk) - an amount of money I have to pay, roughly 160 euro iirc, before insurance/State kicks in to pay everything else. So I've to pay for small things like dentist check-ups, but if I break my arm (which would cost well over 160) I wouldn't have to worry about going bankrupt.

 

[spartan231490]

So I've learned two things today:

1: I suck at this "being an adult". Leave for a haircut this morning. 5 hours, a trip to the hospital and 6 stitches later, still no haircut.

2: "Medicine" must be code for "profiteering racket". Because in the ambulance on my way to the hospital, the technician is offering me a paid yearly ambulance subscription service so I don't have to pay to use the ambulance if I need it.

I'll give that a moment to sink in. I'm sitting here with some my meat hanging out - covered, but still not where it should be (I look a bit like uncooked chicken on the inside apparently) - and they're trying to sell me something. I know I'm going to have to pay out the ass for the Emergency Room, the Doctor, the Stitches and the Care........and now she is reminding that the very needed trip to the hospital isn't even free.

If we're not even getting people to the hospital without charging them............

Everyone pays for medical care its just a question of when. Ambulances cost money to buy and run and the people that operate them need to make a living, all of which costs money. The rest is how and when you pay.

Sad that so few people get this. I'm now abandoning this thread before someone drags me into another pointless debate.

 

[rasputin0009]

A country with healthcare supports itself. You keep the people healthy enough to work, and they keep contributing to taxes. It is the biggest win-win situation for the government and the people. The only ones who lose are businesses. And since they're the ones with the money to lobby, they hold all the control. Especially when it comes to America's broken democracy.

 

[MCerberus]

Honestly, why should I pay for other peoples hospital visits? No really why should I? I have no desire or want to do that.

I'd like to point out something here: you already do.
Doctors have been ethically compelled to save dying people without compensation since ancient Greece. Now, without actual real healthcare, the less fortunate are going from one deadly crisis to another.

Hospitals have found that if you provide free housing to people they end up saving money.

This is nothing compared to how crippled the FDA is letting drug companies and snake oil salesmen just do whatever, how a weakening EPA is leading to a whole mess of effects, and corn subsidies are the worst thing to happen to public health... like... ever.

 

[omega 616]

Healthcare is just insanely expensive here, way more than any other country. I could guess at some reason why but I'm sure the root causes are a topic of discussion for more educated individuals. I just have to leave it by saying "That's how it is here"

It's why the analogies to other countries with working healthcare systems don't always work. The government cant afford to provide all its citizens with a free MRIs when an MRI costs 10 times as much as in other countries. I think its been shown that America actually spends more on healthcare than many other countries yet has less coverage, all because of prices.

So are you saying that the same equipment and the same medicine is more expensive in America than the rest of the world? Is it like the nice beaches tax Aus has to pay for there games?

Universal health care would work in America, it's the exact same as every other country in the world. You just need people to support it and not hate change.

Change is the only thing holding the world back, Americans are accustomed to being charged to live so when "hey, everybody can live for a minor tax increase (even though in a sane world money would just be taken from war funds)" a lot of you say "fuck that noise!".

I've heard the same argument for gun laws, "Aus had similar gun laws to USA, then they changed to be much more strict and now there are no school shootings ... why don't you have that in America?"
"'cos America is a different country so it wouldn't work".

I think America is scary place! It's like the government wants you to die. "You got accidentally shot 'cos of a gang war? Shit, that is going to cost A LOT!"

 

[salfiert]

the united states is stuffed, plain and simple, its time as a major world player is over and the next 50-100 years will see it decline to the point where it is basically irrelevant on the world stage, and frankly a country that can't look after its people doesn't deserve to be a world player, your health system is stuffed cause the education to provide that healthcare is too damn expensive, your education is too expensive because the education providers can do whatever it wants, because your government is a ponderously huge quivering mess of self serving bureaucracy that is too preoccupied with not collapsing under its own weight to do anything, and half the people have this insane idolization of a form of capitalism so twisted its become 'take everything you can for yourself give nothing back' I've seen people I swear would complain about having to publicly fund a fire department as their house burned down around them. it is absolutely insane, and its so deeply ingrained nothing in the world can fix it, my advice to anyone in america is get out, leave cause its only gonna get worse in our lifetimes

 

[Shdwrnr]

As someone who works in the profession of medicine in the United States, I can assure you that the majority of difficulties with ambulances are a result of how they are used and treated. The majority of calls to our ambulances are either people who just want a ride to the hospital because they are shut ins or elderly and need a ride for routine care or they're people trying to abuse the system under the belief that coming in an ambulance will get them seen faster (again for routine care). As a result, the ambulance system is over-tasked by people who shouldn't be calling for them and the ambulance companies are forbidden by law to refuse to offer their services. On top of that, while there is a fee for using them, if the patient doesn't pay they are still required by law to provide their services. Their only recourse is to increase prices so that the people who actually do pay offset the losses incurred by those that do not.

 

[tardcore]

An ambulance is not a fucking taxi and healthcare is not a money making enterprise. If you lived in a civilized country your healthcare would be paid for in taxes and government funding

Yes they would be paid for and he could look forward to taking the risk of being left to die in an NHS hospital corridor due to hospital overcrowding and hospital staff apathy. Incompetence is incompetence regardless of who is picking up the check.

As to the whole an ambulance is not a taxi argument, I'd say that if you are paying a subscription service for one you should be able to choose when you get to ride in one injured or not, just like Orson Welles used to do.