Mens Rights Activists

Dizchu

...brutal
Sep 23, 2014
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Cryselle said:
Nieroshai said:
I would expound then that you're not using the words in the modern sense. The definitions, sadly, have been altered in a way that cannot be salvaged. So, in the modern sense, how can you at the same time EXCLUSIVELY support men's rights and EXCLUSIVELY support women's rights, and then say you support both equally? By their very nature, by the current definitions, you can only be one of the three: an exclusivist on either side or an inclusivist in the middle.
I strongly take exception to the idea that being a feminist means you EXCLUSIVELY support women's rights. It's not a zero sum game and never has been. Believe it or not, but Tumblr is not the be all end all of discussion.
Feminism isn't exclusively about women's rights, no. But it does have a bias towards female issues (hence the name, the language used and cultural perceptions of it). I wouldn't have a problem with this IF feminism weren't regarded as synonymous with the advocacy of gender equality. The "you're with us or against us" mentality that's all too popular amongst youngsters in particular does a lot to reinforce gender boundaries by perpetuating this clique-ish "mean girls" dynamic.

The label "feminist" as it is currently defined presupposes an inherent female disadvantage in society, which I believe is the case sometimes but it is not universal enough to warrant the disproportionate amount of attention women's issues get in comparison to men's. What's worse is that many of the people most critical of feminism are openly against gender equality with idealistic ideas of "gender complementarity" which insist that men and women should fill specific societal roles (see Return of Kings for a pretty appalling example). All this does is strengthen feminism's monopoly on gender debates, which is problematic given feminism's nebulous nature.

The term "feminism" will always have a female bias and I think it'll take a while for that bias to fade, once gender discussions become more progressive and commonplace. But once that happens, the term will probably be replaced by a more neutral one.
 

Gorrila_thinktank

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Dec 28, 2010
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Lil devils x said:
Lightspeaker said:
thaluikhain said:
MonsterCrit said:
Man beating Woman to Bloody pulp- BAD, EVIL, HITLER
You provide shelter according to the problem. The shelter I volunteer at here is surrounded by barbed wire and electric fence to keep the men out that are trying to kill the women in there. It has armed police officers that guard it and these things are necessary to keep the women alive. EVEN with these precautions, a victim inside was almost kidnapped by the man who she was hiding from, and they will go to extreme lengths to get to them, even paying other women to attempt to infiltrate the shelters. Sometimes even these shlters are not enough and we have to move them to " safe houses" where they cannot even be traced by police to keep them safe, as some of the men actually have access to police records..

You have to know who the perpetrator is and what they are capable of in order to provide an adequate facility to protect the victims. You cannot provide an adequate facility unless you know what will be needed to be able to protect them. The resources that are required to protect the victims depend on who the perpetrator is.
I'm kind of in agreement with you over the whole entire allocation of resources to most effective tools thing, and I'm really grateful that you volunteer your time with that shelter. It seems like you're really passionate about violence against women and I don't think I can thank you enough.

That being said, I personally have experienced the effects of the lack of funding directed to men's shelters. I had to ride shotgun on an emergency trip to the Toronto airport to get a guy I went to collage with away from his abusive girlfriend. I wasn't trained for that, and I don't mean to sound dramatic but I had to get him a plane ticket out west over the phone with him crying in the back set. We had to drive about 10 hours altogether to be back for class the next day.

The town we were in had a women's shelter, but no resources for men. The hospital wouldn't help keep him overnight and the cops arrested him when he called and asked for help so they were kind of a no-go. It was a really bad night.

I dont know what would have happened if they had resources for abused men like the kind you're talking about for the women you work with. Maybe he could have gone there and like finished up his undergrad.

The logical part of me is like, "yeah, needs of the many vs. needs of the few" but then the emotional side of me is just remembering him like whimpering in the back set for 4 hours and I don't want that for anyone.
 

The Lunatic

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Jun 3, 2010
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Lil devils x said:
You provide shelter according to the problem. The shelter I volunteer at here is surrounded by barbed wire and electric fence to keep the men out that are trying to kill the women in there. It has armed police officers that guard it and these things are necessary to keep the women alive. EVEN with these precautions, a victim inside was almost kidnapped by the man who she was hiding from, and they will go to extreme lengths to get to them, even paying other women to attempt to infiltrate the shelters. Sometimes even these shlters are not enough and we have to move them to " safe houses" where they cannot even be traced by police to keep them safe, as some of the men actually have access to police records..

You have to know who the perpetrator is and what they are capable of in order to provide an adequate facility to protect the victims. You cannot provide an adequate facility unless you know what will be needed to be able to protect them. The resources that are required to protect the victims depend on who the perpetrator is.

Are you seriously suggesting that a fairly sizeable number of men don't have issues with being subject to crime and having no choices but to go homeless?

You do realise the vast majority of homeless people are men.

The vast majority of victims of violent crime, are men.

So, I have no idea where you're getting the idea there isn't a serious need for safe spaces that men can go to.

You're turning this into "Men vs Women", when in reality it's victims against abusers, and you're saying that some victims aren't worth being protected on the basis of gender.

That just seems an incredibly worrying mindset to take.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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The Lunatic said:
Lil devils x said:
You provide shelter according to the problem. The shelter I volunteer at here is surrounded by barbed wire and electric fence to keep the men out that are trying to kill the women in there. It has armed police officers that guard it and these things are necessary to keep the women alive. EVEN with these precautions, a victim inside was almost kidnapped by the man who she was hiding from, and they will go to extreme lengths to get to them, even paying other women to attempt to infiltrate the shelters. Sometimes even these shlters are not enough and we have to move them to " safe houses" where they cannot even be traced by police to keep them safe, as some of the men actually have access to police records..

You have to know who the perpetrator is and what they are capable of in order to provide an adequate facility to protect the victims. You cannot provide an adequate facility unless you know what will be needed to be able to protect them. The resources that are required to protect the victims depend on who the perpetrator is.

Are you seriously suggesting that a fairly sizeable number of men don't have issues with being subject to crime and having no choices but to go homeless?

You do realise the vast majority of homeless people are men.

The vast majority of victims of violent crime, are men.

So, I have no idea where you're getting the idea there isn't a serious need for safe spaces that men can go to.

You're turning this into "Men vs Women", when in reality it's victims against abusers, and you're saying that some victims aren't worth being protected on the basis of gender.

That just seems an incredibly worrying mindset to take.
There is that plus when you add on transgender victims, and we get even less resources and more rejection than cisgender men.

It's all very troubling that people put a value on victims based gender and being cisgender.
 

Nieroshai

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Aug 20, 2009
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Cryselle said:
Nieroshai said:
I would expound then that you're not using the words in the modern sense. The definitions, sadly, have been altered in a way that cannot be salvaged. So, in the modern sense, how can you at the same time EXCLUSIVELY support men's rights and EXCLUSIVELY support women's rights, and then say you support both equally? By their very nature, by the current definitions, you can only be one of the three: an exclusivist on either side or an inclusivist in the middle.
I strongly take exception to the idea that being a feminist means you EXCLUSIVELY support women's rights. It's not a zero sum game and never has been. Believe it or not, but Tumblr is not the be all end all of discussion.
But that's the thing... you're taking umbrage that I say it's nobler to side with humanity at large than with the movement of professional umbrage-takers who call themselves feminists. You know full well that when anyone uses the term feminism they mean women's rights advocate, and while that is noble, its modern iteration is one who imagines ills and throws tantrums. Tumblr is not the body but a candid photograph of the body. MRA, feminist, the fact that equal consideration of humanity is not the goal of either is a stain on both.
 

Nieroshai

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Aug 20, 2009
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Silvanus said:
Nieroshai said:
I would expound then that you're not using the words in the modern sense. The definitions, sadly, have been altered in a way that cannot be salvaged.
Well, only in certain areas on the Internet, and some relatively niche demographics in the real world. The vast, vast majority of people still use it in the "equal rights for women" way, or something closer to that than what it means to you.
Then how is it that people who believe in old-school "egalitarianism-in-disguise" feminism feel they have to side with their radical fringe? Where we have to fear being hated for not siding with Sarkeesian, McIntosh, Rebecca Watson, etc even though we do in fact support equality? Feminism, like it or not, is a term that implies need for extreme affirmative action on the level of quotas, eggshell-walking, and special privileges. We live in an era where we can easily say that violations of civil rights are publicly decried, and change and equality are pushed for. Feminism has indeed become angry SJWs, and their more conservative contemporaries who speak up rarely if at all. "Real" feminists are jumping ship, which is fine because feminism is careening towards the reef, but shore isn't far and there are plenty of life boats.

I may need to clarify: I am contesting that there is a majority, let alone a vast one.
 

lunavixen

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Jan 2, 2012
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Proper MRAs are trying to get equal rights in terms of disparity in child rearing after divorce and the disparity in jail time for the same crime based on gender (much like how the original principles of feminism are equality for the sexes). A lot of its message has been lost under axe grinding and lashing back at modern feminist movements. It's generally only the extremes of each side that are seen (and wind up doing relatively little) and not the moderates in the middle (who are actually the ones getting things done).

Most people don't identify as MRAs or feminists (despite supporting one or potentially both) and prefer the label of humanist as it doesn't have the negative connotations of the other labels.
 

Tsun Tzu

Feuer! Sperrfeuer! Los!
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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
The Lunatic said:
Are you seriously suggesting that a fairly sizeable number of men don't have issues with being subject to crime and having no choices but to go homeless?

You do realise the vast majority of homeless people are men.

The vast majority of victims of violent crime, are men.

So, I have no idea where you're getting the idea there isn't a serious need for safe spaces that men can go to.

You're turning this into "Men vs Women", when in reality it's victims against abusers, and you're saying that some victims aren't worth being protected on the basis of gender.

That just seems an incredibly worrying mindset to take.
There is that plus when you add on transgender victims, and we get even less resources and more rejection than cisgender men.

It's all very troubling that people put a value on victims based gender and being cisgender.
...Why is this apparently such a difficult thing for some folks? How on earth is this a gendered issue?

It just seems like a matter of course; you provide help for victims. If some need more attention, you provide it. If some need less, you provide it. The point is the availability.

What someone has between their legs doesn't even enter my mind when I'm worried about their well being and I had, naively I suppose, assumed that was the baseline mindset for everybody else too.
 

Sarge034

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Feb 24, 2011
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Daniel Ferguson said:
So, do these actually exist? I don't go to the comments sections of articles very often (a good thing) so I don't really know for certain, but I hear the MRAs are all up in arms about Mad Max Fury Road, so apparently this is a real thing? Maybe?

Or are they like an urban legend?
Yes they exist and they are just like "new age" feminists. Some good points and a lot of extremists.

But for the love of god will people actually learn what feminism, TRUE feminism, is? I'm begging, with tears in my eyes, for people to become informed.

feminism
>the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities
>the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism

Any definition that specifies women is an example of "new age" feminism, and that's not true feminism. I'm a white male and I'm a true feminist. I believe in equal opportunity and equal treatment, but every person has to earn their place. If 100 men and 100 women apply for 100 jobs imma take the most qualified. I don't give two shits what's in-between your legs, unless the job requires it. I mean, women wouldn't do very well in a job requiring you to be kicked in the nuts... Extreme example, but you get my point. However, they could apply for that job all they wanted.
 

Sarge034

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Feb 24, 2011
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LostGryphon said:
What someone has between their legs doesn't even enter my mind when I'm worried about their well being and I had, naively I suppose, assumed that was the baseline mindset for everybody else too.
I feel your pain. People are people and should be treated as such unless they give a reason to the contrary.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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May 17, 2011
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The Lunatic said:
Lil devils x said:
You provide shelter according to the problem. The shelter I volunteer at here is surrounded by barbed wire and electric fence to keep the men out that are trying to kill the women in there. It has armed police officers that guard it and these things are necessary to keep the women alive. EVEN with these precautions, a victim inside was almost kidnapped by the man who she was hiding from, and they will go to extreme lengths to get to them, even paying other women to attempt to infiltrate the shelters. Sometimes even these shlters are not enough and we have to move them to " safe houses" where they cannot even be traced by police to keep them safe, as some of the men actually have access to police records..

You have to know who the perpetrator is and what they are capable of in order to provide an adequate facility to protect the victims. You cannot provide an adequate facility unless you know what will be needed to be able to protect them. The resources that are required to protect the victims depend on who the perpetrator is.

Are you seriously suggesting that a fairly sizeable number of men don't have issues with being subject to crime and having no choices but to go homeless?

You do realise the vast majority of homeless people are men.

The vast majority of victims of violent crime, are men.

So, I have no idea where you're getting the idea there isn't a serious need for safe spaces that men can go to.

You're turning this into "Men vs Women", when in reality it's victims against abusers, and you're saying that some victims aren't worth being protected on the basis of gender.

That just seems an incredibly worrying mindset to take.
homeless shelter =\= safe house. They are not the same thing and cannot be treated the same way.
The vast majority of those committing the violence against men AND women ARE men. It is much easier putting women into a battered women's shelter to keep them protected because they do not allow men in there. It is much more difficult to protect men from men when men are allowed into the shelter. OF course we want to protect both men and women but we have to treat it according to problem, there isn't a blanket answer for this since it isn't a blanket problem. They have been putting men accompanied by their children in hotels ( better accommodations than the women receive) due to the issues with the men that are at the shelter, whereas the women and children are kept together with other women and children in very crowded shelters sleeping in the same bed with their children.


This may help you:

Females made up 70% of victims killed by an intimate partner in 2007, a proportion
that has changed very little since 1993.
? Females were killed by intimate partners at twice the rate of males. In 2007 the rate of
intimate partner homicide for females was 1.07 per 100,000 female residents compared
to 0.47 per 100,000 male residents.
? Females are generally murdered by people they know. In 64% of female homicide
cases in 2007, females were killed by a family member or intimate partner. In 2007,
24% of female homicide victims were killed by a spouse or ex-spouse; 21% were killed
by a boyfriend or girlfriend; and 19% by another family member.
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf


"Homeless families comprise roughly 34% of the total U.S. homeless population"

"Among all homeless women, 60% have children under age 18, but only 65% of them live with at least one of their children.
Among all homeless men, 41% have children under age 18, but only 7% live with at least one of their children.

84% of families experiencing homelessness are female-headed. This is due to a number of factors:
Most single-parent families are female-headed (71%). Single-parent families are among the poorest in the nation and as such, are extremely vulnerable to homelessness
Many family shelters do not accept men into their programs, causing families to separate when they become homeless.
Over 92% of homeless mothers have experienced severe physical and/or sexual abuse during their lifetime
63% report that this abuse was perpetrated by an intimate partner"
Over 85% of homeless families are headed by women - specifically, by single women with children - and domestic violence is a principal cause homelessness among single mother families.

1 of every 4 homeless women is homeless because of violence committed against her
Inadequate housing and shelter options, evictions, discrimination, poverty, and other factors contribute to the crisis of homelessness caused by family violence. Furthermore, many women remain in an abusive relationship because of these barriers."

http://www.greendoors.org/facts/family-homelessness.php



"Up to 100 million people are homeless throughout the world, the majority of them women and dependent children."
http://www.shelter20.com/homeless-statistics/

"95% of domestic violence is reported by women ? perpetrated against by their male partner.
When men are battered it is typically by their male intimate partner ? battering occurs in gay and lesbian relationships at the same rate as heterosexual relationships ? approximately 35%.
80% of all violent crimes committed outside the home are committed by males."

"Domestic Violence is the single greatest cause of injury to women."
http://www.dvipiowa.org/myths-facts-about-domestic-violence/



Now the issue is a matter of supply and demand. Demand is not just determined by " this person needs a place to stay", it is determined by "this person will likely die if turned away." Many Men and women and families are turned away from shelters every day, as there are not enough to meet demand. They instead have to take people on " needs" basis. Children are first considered, those in life threatening situations, then everyone else. The issue is the majority of the children are with their mothers, and there are more women whose lives are in need of protection from their partner. They cannot house the battered men in the same shelter with the battered women as they share the same bedrooms, beds and shower spaces at the same time, and ALSO share these things with their children, and many of the families in there are traumatized and recovering physically and mentally from the extreme violence against them.

Now There IS a shortage of services and shelters for men, but there are ALSO a shortage of services and shelters for women as well still, even with what they have provided thus far, they still come up very short and people are still being killed due to this when they could have been rescued. I am in no way saying men should not have services as well, I am stating the resources needed are not equivalent. you would not allocate the same amount of funding and manpower to both due to them both having different actual needs and risks. Basically the money runs out before even helping all of the women who are at risk of being murdered before even getting to the women who are not, so by the time they get to the guys there is a mile long line ahead of them before they get to be helped. They desperately need more resources to properly address this issue. They do not build father and child shelters for the 7% of men who are with their children, instead they put those in hotels/ motels because it is more efficient to do so. The single men are sent the homeless shelters where they get to take their chances with the rest in line there, and no those are not nice places, but neither are the homeless shelters for single women. They are quite scary as well.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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May 17, 2011
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Gorrila_thinktank said:
Lil devils x said:
Lightspeaker said:
thaluikhain said:
MonsterCrit said:
Man beating Woman to Bloody pulp- BAD, EVIL, HITLER
You provide shelter according to the problem. The shelter I volunteer at here is surrounded by barbed wire and electric fence to keep the men out that are trying to kill the women in there. It has armed police officers that guard it and these things are necessary to keep the women alive. EVEN with these precautions, a victim inside was almost kidnapped by the man who she was hiding from, and they will go to extreme lengths to get to them, even paying other women to attempt to infiltrate the shelters. Sometimes even these shlters are not enough and we have to move them to " safe houses" where they cannot even be traced by police to keep them safe, as some of the men actually have access to police records..

You have to know who the perpetrator is and what they are capable of in order to provide an adequate facility to protect the victims. You cannot provide an adequate facility unless you know what will be needed to be able to protect them. The resources that are required to protect the victims depend on who the perpetrator is.
I'm kind of in agreement with you over the whole entire allocation of resources to most effective tools thing, and I'm really grateful that you volunteer your time with that shelter. It seems like you're really passionate about violence against women and I don't think I can thank you enough.

That being said, I personally have experienced the effects of the lack of funding directed to men's shelters. I had to ride shotgun on an emergency trip to the Toronto airport to get a guy I went to collage with away from his abusive girlfriend. I wasn't trained for that, and I don't mean to sound dramatic but I had to get him a plane ticket out west over the phone with him crying in the back set. We had to drive about 10 hours altogether to be back for class the next day.

The town we were in had a women's shelter, but no resources for men. The hospital wouldn't help keep him overnight and the cops arrested him when he called and asked for help so they were kind of a no-go. It was a really bad night.

I dont know what would have happened if they had resources for abused men like the kind you're talking about for the women you work with. Maybe he could have gone there and like finished up his undergrad.

The logical part of me is like, "yeah, needs of the many vs. needs of the few" but then the emotional side of me is just remembering him like whimpering in the back set for 4 hours and I don't want that for anyone.
I think some of the misunderstanding is even battered women cannot always be accepted into a "battered womens shelter" Not only are men turned away, but women who are unaccompanied by children who do not have someone actively hunting them to kill them are also turned away. I think often people are confused and fail to understand that women in the same situation as the men are also frequently turned away due to lack of resources. The resources allocated to both homeless shelters, safe houses and shelters for the abused are all greatly lacking. Unless they do not have more resources allocated to them, this will only get worse, not better. They have to kick someone out of the shelter to bring in someone new.. they are not going to kick out children to bring in single adults, and the waiting list for low income housing here is 5+ years currently. What are they supposed to do for 5 or more years?
 

Guerilla

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Sep 7, 2014
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Lil devils x said:
homeless shelter =\= safe house. They are not the same thing and cannot be treated the same way.
The vast majority of those committing the violence against men AND women ARE men. It is much easier putting women into a battered women's shelter to keep them protected because they do not allow men in there. It is much more difficult to protect men from men when men are allowed into the shelter. OF course we want to protect both men and women but we have to treat it according to problem, there isn't a blanket answer for this since it isn't a blanket problem. They have been putting men accompanied by their children in hotels ( better accommodations than the women receive) due to the issues with the men that are at the shelter, whereas the women and children are kept together with other women and children in very crowded shelters sleeping in the same bed with their children.


This may help you:

Females made up 70% of victims killed by an intimate partner in 2007, a proportion
that has changed very little since 1993.
? Females were killed by intimate partners at twice the rate of males. In 2007 the rate of
intimate partner homicide for females was 1.07 per 100,000 female residents compared
to 0.47 per 100,000 male residents.
? Females are generally murdered by people they know. In 64% of female homicide
cases in 2007, females were killed by a family member or intimate partner. In 2007,
24% of female homicide victims were killed by a spouse or ex-spouse; 21% were killed
by a boyfriend or girlfriend; and 19% by another family member.
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf


"Homeless families comprise roughly 34% of the total U.S. homeless population"

"Among all homeless women, 60% have children under age 18, but only 65% of them live with at least one of their children.
Among all homeless men, 41% have children under age 18, but only 7% live with at least one of their children.

84% of families experiencing homelessness are female-headed. This is due to a number of factors:
Most single-parent families are female-headed (71%). Single-parent families are among the poorest in the nation and as such, are extremely vulnerable to homelessness
Many family shelters do not accept men into their programs, causing families to separate when they become homeless.
Over 92% of homeless mothers have experienced severe physical and/or sexual abuse during their lifetime
63% report that this abuse was perpetrated by an intimate partner"
Over 85% of homeless families are headed by women - specifically, by single women with children - and domestic violence is a principal cause homelessness among single mother families.

1 of every 4 homeless women is homeless because of violence committed against her
Inadequate housing and shelter options, evictions, discrimination, poverty, and other factors contribute to the crisis of homelessness caused by family violence. Furthermore, many women remain in an abusive relationship because of these barriers."

http://www.greendoors.org/facts/family-homelessness.php



"Up to 100 million people are homeless throughout the world, the majority of them women and dependent children."
http://www.shelter20.com/homeless-statistics/

"95% of domestic violence is reported by women ? perpetrated against by their male partner.
When men are battered it is typically by their male intimate partner ? battering occurs in gay and lesbian relationships at the same rate as heterosexual relationships ? approximately 35%.
80% of all violent crimes committed outside the home are committed by males."

"Domestic Violence is the single greatest cause of injury to women."
http://www.dvipiowa.org/myths-facts-about-domestic-violence/



Now the issue is a matter of supply and demand. Demand is not just determined by " this person needs a place to stay", it is determined by "this person will likely die if turned away." Many Men and women and families are turned away from shelters every day, as there are not enough to meet demand. They instead have to take people on " needs" basis. Children are first considered, those in life threatening situations, then everyone else. The issue is the majority of the children are with their mothers, and there are more women whose lives are in need of protection from their partner. They cannot house the battered men in the same shelter with the battered women as they share the same bedrooms, beds and shower spaces at the same time, and ALSO share these things with their children, and many of the families in there are traumatized and recovering physically and mentally from the extreme violence against them.

Now There IS a shortage of services and shelters for men, but there are ALSO a shortage of services and shelters for women as well still, even with what they have provided thus far, they still come up very short and people are still being killed due to this when they could have been rescued. I am in no way saying men should not have services as well, I am stating the resources needed are not equivalent. you would not allocate the same amount of funding and manpower to both due to them both having different actual needs and risks. Basically the money runs out before even helping all of the women who are at risk of being murdered before even getting to the women who are not, so by the time they get to the guys there is a mile long line ahead of them before they get to be helped. They desperately need more resources to properly address this issue. They do not build father and child shelters for the 7% of men who are with their children, instead they put those in hotels/ motels because it is more efficient to do so. The single men are sent the homeless shelters where they get to take their chances with the rest in line there, and no those are not nice places, but neither are the homeless shelters for single women. They are quite scary as well.

I like how you "forget" to mention other important statistics like the percentage of homelessness between men and women in that statistic about homeless parents or the fact that that 95% of reported domestic violence is so big because men don't bother to report violence from women. In fact women are more violent than men in relationships: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-are-more-violent-says-study-622388.html or http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2006/may/em_060519male.cfm?type=n. Also women are prosecuted less partly because it is proven again and again that the judicial system is extremely biased against men in comparison. The whole post seems like an enormous spin to demonize men with handpicked statistics.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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May 17, 2011
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Guerilla said:
Lil devils x said:
homeless shelter =\= safe house. They are not the same thing and cannot be treated the same way.
The vast majority of those committing the violence against men AND women ARE men. It is much easier putting women into a battered women's shelter to keep them protected because they do not allow men in there. It is much more difficult to protect men from men when men are allowed into the shelter. OF course we want to protect both men and women but we have to treat it according to problem, there isn't a blanket answer for this since it isn't a blanket problem. They have been putting men accompanied by their children in hotels ( better accommodations than the women receive) due to the issues with the men that are at the shelter, whereas the women and children are kept together with other women and children in very crowded shelters sleeping in the same bed with their children.


This may help you:

Females made up 70% of victims killed by an intimate partner in 2007, a proportion
that has changed very little since 1993.
? Females were killed by intimate partners at twice the rate of males. In 2007 the rate of
intimate partner homicide for females was 1.07 per 100,000 female residents compared
to 0.47 per 100,000 male residents.
? Females are generally murdered by people they know. In 64% of female homicide
cases in 2007, females were killed by a family member or intimate partner. In 2007,
24% of female homicide victims were killed by a spouse or ex-spouse; 21% were killed
by a boyfriend or girlfriend; and 19% by another family member.
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf


"Homeless families comprise roughly 34% of the total U.S. homeless population"

"Among all homeless women, 60% have children under age 18, but only 65% of them live with at least one of their children.
Among all homeless men, 41% have children under age 18, but only 7% live with at least one of their children.

84% of families experiencing homelessness are female-headed. This is due to a number of factors:
Most single-parent families are female-headed (71%). Single-parent families are among the poorest in the nation and as such, are extremely vulnerable to homelessness
Many family shelters do not accept men into their programs, causing families to separate when they become homeless.
Over 92% of homeless mothers have experienced severe physical and/or sexual abuse during their lifetime
63% report that this abuse was perpetrated by an intimate partner"
Over 85% of homeless families are headed by women - specifically, by single women with children - and domestic violence is a principal cause homelessness among single mother families.

1 of every 4 homeless women is homeless because of violence committed against her
Inadequate housing and shelter options, evictions, discrimination, poverty, and other factors contribute to the crisis of homelessness caused by family violence. Furthermore, many women remain in an abusive relationship because of these barriers."

http://www.greendoors.org/facts/family-homelessness.php



"Up to 100 million people are homeless throughout the world, the majority of them women and dependent children."
http://www.shelter20.com/homeless-statistics/

"95% of domestic violence is reported by women ? perpetrated against by their male partner.
When men are battered it is typically by their male intimate partner ? battering occurs in gay and lesbian relationships at the same rate as heterosexual relationships ? approximately 35%.
80% of all violent crimes committed outside the home are committed by males."

"Domestic Violence is the single greatest cause of injury to women."
http://www.dvipiowa.org/myths-facts-about-domestic-violence/



Now the issue is a matter of supply and demand. Demand is not just determined by " this person needs a place to stay", it is determined by "this person will likely die if turned away." Many Men and women and families are turned away from shelters every day, as there are not enough to meet demand. They instead have to take people on " needs" basis. Children are first considered, those in life threatening situations, then everyone else. The issue is the majority of the children are with their mothers, and there are more women whose lives are in need of protection from their partner. They cannot house the battered men in the same shelter with the battered women as they share the same bedrooms, beds and shower spaces at the same time, and ALSO share these things with their children, and many of the families in there are traumatized and recovering physically and mentally from the extreme violence against them.

Now There IS a shortage of services and shelters for men, but there are ALSO a shortage of services and shelters for women as well still, even with what they have provided thus far, they still come up very short and people are still being killed due to this when they could have been rescued. I am in no way saying men should not have services as well, I am stating the resources needed are not equivalent. you would not allocate the same amount of funding and manpower to both due to them both having different actual needs and risks. Basically the money runs out before even helping all of the women who are at risk of being murdered before even getting to the women who are not, so by the time they get to the guys there is a mile long line ahead of them before they get to be helped. They desperately need more resources to properly address this issue. They do not build father and child shelters for the 7% of men who are with their children, instead they put those in hotels/ motels because it is more efficient to do so. The single men are sent the homeless shelters where they get to take their chances with the rest in line there, and no those are not nice places, but neither are the homeless shelters for single women. They are quite scary as well.

I like how you "forget" to mention other important statistics like the percentage of homelessness between men and women in that statistic about homeless parents or the fact that that 95% of reported domestic violence is so big because men don't bother to report violence from women. In fact women are more violent than men in relationships: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-are-more-violent-says-study-622388.html or http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2006/may/em_060519male.cfm?type=n. Also women are prosecuted less partly because it is proven again and again that the judicial system is extremely biased against men in comparison.

But don't let me hinder your efforts to present men as the perpetrators of all evils.
That wasn't left out at all, in fact this link was already in this thread:
"Men?s Rights Movement Spreads False Claims about Women"
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women

"Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders.[4]
Young adult black males had the highest homicide offending rate compared to offenders in other racial and sex categories.[4]
White females of all ages had the lowest offending rates of any racial or age groups.[4]
Of children under age 5 killed by a parent, the rate for biological fathers was slightly higher than for biological mothers.[4]
However, of children under 5 killed by someone other than their parent, 80% were killed by males.[4]
Victimization rates for both males and females have been relatively stable since 2000.[4]
Males were more likely to be murder victims (76.8%).[4]
Females were most likely to be victims of domestic homicides (63.7%) and sex-related homicides (81.7%)[4]
Males were most likely to be victims of drug- (90.5%) and gang-related homicides (94.6%).[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime

"MYTH #3: THE REAL PROBLEM IS COUPLES WHO ASSAULT EACH OTHER. WOMEN ARE JUST AS VIOLENT AS MEN.
FACT: A well-publicized study conducted by Dr. Murray Strauss at the University of New Hampshire found that women use violent means to resolve conflict in relationships as often as men. However, the study also concluded that when the context and consequences of an assault are measured, the majority of victims are women. The U.S. Department of Justice has found that 85% of the victims of spouse abuse are female. Men can be victims, but it is rare."
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/domviol/myths.htm

"Approximately 27.3% of women and 11.5% of men in the U.S. have experienced contact sexual violence, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner and reported at least one measured impact related to these or other forms of violence in that relationship.5 In general, victims of repeated violence over time experience more serious consequences than victims of one-time incidents.6 The following list describes some, but not all, of the consequences of IPV."
"Nearly 1 in 4 women (22.3%) and 1 in 7 men (14.0%) aged 18 and older in the United States have been the victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime. Nearly, 14% of women (13.4%) and 3.54% of men have been injured as a result of IPV that included contact sexual violence, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime (Breiding et al., 2014).5 In 2010, 241 males and 1095 females were murdered by an intimate partner.7"
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/intimatepartnerviolence/consequences.html


The idea that women are more violent than men has been debunked so many times, I am not sure why they still keep trying to dredge this falsehood up. Yes many men do not report violence against them, but you should also understand MANY women do not as well. Violence against both men and women is terribly underrepresented. what is often muddled over as well is that intimate partner violence against men" is ALSO mostly men committing violence against their male partner as well, people too often assume that intimate partner means "opposite sex", but that is not the case .
 

Guerilla

New member
Sep 7, 2014
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Lil devils x said:
That wasn't left out at all, in fact this link was already in this thread:
"Men?s Rights Movement Spreads False Claims about Women"
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women

"Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders.[4]
Young adult black males had the highest homicide offending rate compared to offenders in other racial and sex categories.[4]
White females of all ages had the lowest offending rates of any racial or age groups.[4]
Of children under age 5 killed by a parent, the rate for biological fathers was slightly higher than for biological mothers.[4]
However, of children under 5 killed by someone other than their parent, 80% were killed by males.[4]
Victimization rates for both males and females have been relatively stable since 2000.[4]
Males were more likely to be murder victims (76.8%).[4]
Females were most likely to be victims of domestic homicides (63.7%) and sex-related homicides (81.7%)[4]
Males were most likely to be victims of drug- (90.5%) and gang-related homicides (94.6%).[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime

"MYTH #3: THE REAL PROBLEM IS COUPLES WHO ASSAULT EACH OTHER. WOMEN ARE JUST AS VIOLENT AS MEN.
FACT: A well-publicized study conducted by Dr. Murray Strauss at the University of New Hampshire found that women use violent means to resolve conflict in relationships as often as men. However, the study also concluded that when the context and consequences of an assault are measured, the majority of victims are women. The U.S. Department of Justice has found that 85% of the victims of spouse abuse are female. Men can be victims, but it is rare."
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/domviol/myths.htm

"Approximately 27.3% of women and 11.5% of men in the U.S. have experienced contact sexual violence, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner and reported at least one measured impact related to these or other forms of violence in that relationship.5 In general, victims of repeated violence over time experience more serious consequences than victims of one-time incidents.6 The following list describes some, but not all, of the consequences of IPV."
"Nearly 1 in 4 women (22.3%) and 1 in 7 men (14.0%) aged 18 and older in the United States have been the victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime. Nearly, 14% of women (13.4%) and 3.54% of men have been injured as a result of IPV that included contact sexual violence, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime (Breiding et al., 2014).5 In 2010, 241 males and 1095 females were murdered by an intimate partner.7"
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/intimatepartnerviolence/consequences.html


The idea that women are more violent than men has been debunked so many times, I am not sure why they still keep trying to dredge this falsehood up. Yes many men do not report violence against them, but you should also understand MANY women do not as well. Violence against both men and women is terribly underrepresented. what is often muddled over as well is that intimate partner violence against men" is ALSO mostly men committing violence against their male partner as well, people too often assume that intimate partner means "opposite sex", but that is not the case .

So... you "debunk" the statement that women are more violent than men by presenting just one study (compared to the many I've found during the years) that confirms that women are at least as violent as men but can't do as much damage because of their physical limitations... Btw this is just one study that strangely uses DOJ's data which I assume are from reported cases. So yeah, you're back to reported cases and this time with a different statistic that contradicts your other one.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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May 17, 2011
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Guerilla said:
Lil devils x said:
That wasn't left out at all, in fact this link was already in this thread:
"Men?s Rights Movement Spreads False Claims about Women"
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women

"Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders.[4]
Young adult black males had the highest homicide offending rate compared to offenders in other racial and sex categories.[4]
White females of all ages had the lowest offending rates of any racial or age groups.[4]
Of children under age 5 killed by a parent, the rate for biological fathers was slightly higher than for biological mothers.[4]
However, of children under 5 killed by someone other than their parent, 80% were killed by males.[4]
Victimization rates for both males and females have been relatively stable since 2000.[4]
Males were more likely to be murder victims (76.8%).[4]
Females were most likely to be victims of domestic homicides (63.7%) and sex-related homicides (81.7%)[4]
Males were most likely to be victims of drug- (90.5%) and gang-related homicides (94.6%).[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime

"MYTH #3: THE REAL PROBLEM IS COUPLES WHO ASSAULT EACH OTHER. WOMEN ARE JUST AS VIOLENT AS MEN.
FACT: A well-publicized study conducted by Dr. Murray Strauss at the University of New Hampshire found that women use violent means to resolve conflict in relationships as often as men. However, the study also concluded that when the context and consequences of an assault are measured, the majority of victims are women. The U.S. Department of Justice has found that 85% of the victims of spouse abuse are female. Men can be victims, but it is rare."
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/domviol/myths.htm

"Approximately 27.3% of women and 11.5% of men in the U.S. have experienced contact sexual violence, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner and reported at least one measured impact related to these or other forms of violence in that relationship.5 In general, victims of repeated violence over time experience more serious consequences than victims of one-time incidents.6 The following list describes some, but not all, of the consequences of IPV."
"Nearly 1 in 4 women (22.3%) and 1 in 7 men (14.0%) aged 18 and older in the United States have been the victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime. Nearly, 14% of women (13.4%) and 3.54% of men have been injured as a result of IPV that included contact sexual violence, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime (Breiding et al., 2014).5 In 2010, 241 males and 1095 females were murdered by an intimate partner.7"
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/intimatepartnerviolence/consequences.html


The idea that women are more violent than men has been debunked so many times, I am not sure why they still keep trying to dredge this falsehood up. Yes many men do not report violence against them, but you should also understand MANY women do not as well. Violence against both men and women is terribly underrepresented. what is often muddled over as well is that intimate partner violence against men" is ALSO mostly men committing violence against their male partner as well, people too often assume that intimate partner means "opposite sex", but that is not the case .

So... you "debunk" the statement that women are more violent than men by presenting just one study (compared to the many I've found during the years) that confirms that women are at least as violent as men but can't do as much damage because of their physical limitations... Btw this is just one study that strangely uses DOJ's data which I assume are from reported cases. So yeah, you're back to reported cases and this time with a different statistic that contradicts your other one.
Oh please... There have been countless studies on violence and the sexes over the years. The MRA pushing their false information does not suddenly change the reality of the situation. Our Emergency room data and homicide data do not lie. Both men and women do not report the violence against them, EVEN when they are sent to the ER due to the severity of their injuries, they frequently do not want their " loved one" who did this to them to be jailed. As the DOJ stated above, violence against men by women is far more rare than violence against both men and women.

THIS is also why there are many obstacles to overcome when providing men with proper shelters. Many of the men in need of shelters are also violent and many have mental health issues and addictions. The shelters for men are not safe due to the men that are in the shelters, so not only are they left trying to provide shelters for these men, they are left ALSO to protect the men in the shelters from themselves and other men in there. While there are still issues in the female shelters, the issue of violence is not as prevalent in the female shelters as it is in the male shelters currently, and we do not have a long term solution to address the issue of violence in the men's shelters as of yet. IF you put these men back on the street for being violent, you are failing to solve the problem.
 

The Lunatic

Princess
Jun 3, 2010
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Lil devils x said:

Again, you're turning this entirely into a gender issue, which it simply isn't.

Men who are assaulted by their fathers, sisters, mothers, brothers or any domestic relation can often require shelter from domestic abuse. Just as much as any woman who is attacked by another family member they live with.

You're also failing to understand that a lack of shelters is a cause of homelessness. If a son is abused by the father of a family, they often receive pretty much nothing in the way of support, a daughter who is assaulted by their mother on the other hand is welcomed at shelters.

Care to guess what one of the leading causes of homelessness is?

Yup, Domestic abuse.

The focus on spouse abuse is a very poor way of looking at these things, people need protection from those they are being abused by. It is not simply a matter of husbands attacking wives, domestic abuse takes many forms, to say "Men don't need shelters because in one instance of abuse, there's less of them" is an extremely narrow view of things.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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May 17, 2011
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Zontar said:
Lil devils x said:
Zontar said:
Lil devils x said:
Yes, that had everything to do with owning property did you read it?
I did, and the only reference to it was the inability to sell it, other then that there is literally no reference to the ability to own property, which was what you stated could not be done. Not being able to sell property is not the same thing as not being able to own property, hence the image of shifting the goal post, since that is what you are doing.
Those were different events in the links..

Married Women's Property Act 1870 and the married women's property act of 1882 are two different things.. read the wiki links again..
prior to 1870 they didn't even own the property, they had no legal say over their own earnings, property, inheritance or gifts. It belonged to her husband instead. The property act of 1882 allowed married women to own and control property in their own right.
The 1870 act stated 'legal owners of the money they earned and to inherit property', no mention of owning property, only inheriting, which far from the only way of owning property. Which makes sense given the long history Britain has extending far before that point of women owning perpetuity (hell one of the best known examples had been owning property very publicly for 33 years at that point, and no one seemed to be complaining about it).
Even though this time line is over simplified and still missing much of the history, it may help you have a better idea of the time periods where women gained different rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women%27s_rights_%28other_than_voting%29

For example things like: "1856 US, Connecticut: Married women granted patent rights" women were not allowed to file for patents there prior to that.
 

SecondPrize

New member
Mar 12, 2012
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Daniel Ferguson said:
So, do these actually exist? I don't go to the comments sections of articles very often (a good thing) so I don't really know for certain, but I hear the MRAs are all up in arms about Mad Max Fury Road, so apparently this is a real thing? Maybe?

Or are they like an urban legend?
Yeah, the world has a bunch of fucking nutjobs in it. Bear in mind that the phrase is used to tar intellectual opponents quite frequently, whether they are actually MRAs or not. Also bear in mind that if any journalist writes a story about how the internet is raging about something, ask for proof that the internet is actually raging about something. We tend to be able to see it when huge swaths of folk online are actually up in arms.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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May 17, 2011
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The Lunatic said:
Lil devils x said:

Again, you're turning this entirely into a gender issue, which it simply isn't.

Men who are assaulted by their fathers, sisters, mothers, brothers or any domestic relation can often require shelter from domestic abuse. Just as much as any woman who is attacked by another family member they live with.

You're also failing to understand that a lack of shelters is a cause of homelessness. If a son is abused by the father of a family, they often receive pretty much nothing in the way of support, a daughter who is assaulted by their mother on the other hand is welcomed at shelters.

Care to guess what one of the leading causes of homelessness is?

Yup, Domestic abuse.

The focus on spouse abuse is a very poor way of looking at these things, people need protection from those they are being abused by. It is not simply a matter of husbands attacking wives, domestic abuse takes many forms, to say "Men don't need shelters because in one instance of abuse, there's less of them" is an extremely narrow view of things.
OF course both men and women can require shelter, however, they do not have the resources to provide that shelter for all that apply, both male and female. They take them on " most at risk" basis. There are definitely men who are being hunted just as there are women who are. Women can put hits out on men just as men have done to women, and both are in need of protection. However, the way they provide protection for both men and women is different. Even i n" safe houses" where they go to undisclosed locations, they house multiple women together, whereas with the men in "safe houses" they do not do as much, but that is also due to the sheer number of women who have been deemed needing a safe house vs the number of men. Men often get their own rooms, beds, sometimes their own home or apartment, whereas women almost always have to share these facilities with other women, sometimes being put into the same bed with a complete stranger since that is all they have available.

The homeless shelters on the other hand offer little to no protections and are dangerous. Not only are you at risk for being beaten, sexually abused and robbed, you also have a high risk of contracting diseases and suffering from additional emotional distress from even staying at them. This is why many men and women who are homeless try to avoid the shelters and would rather take their chances sleeping in a box or someone's back yard than going in there.

While men are denied entry into the battered women's shelter for being men, they would not have qualified to be in there with their same circumstances even if they were women in all but the rarest of circumstances. Your life has to be in immediate danger and you have to have children with you in most cases to qualify. For men with those circumstances, they usually put them into hotels instead. The rest of the men, just like the rest of the women are usually turned away and told to go to the homeless shelter if that shelter even has room.