Message to all anime viewers(NSFW): Cross Ange Tenshi to Ryu no Rondo

[Otakun]

snip

Go back to tumblr if you want trigger warnings. There was no rape, you can even argue that there was no torture as there was nothing depicted on screen, alls you heard was seconds of yelling. At best you saw clothes being ripped and her being thrown around and kicked once. She isn't even considered human at this point and I feel this is where people are missing the issue. She has no rights anymore and she is being treated as being so, don't see why that's considered bad story telling. This stuff happens in real life all the time in other countries that are less fortunate but it's considered porn if someone wants to use it as a backstory for a character? If you don't like what happened that's fine but I think people are blowing this scene way out of proportion just because it's a female getting roughed up.

 

[Karadalis]

Oh boy.... I wounder how would Elfin Lied's First 10 Minutes get interpreted now. Oh well will just keep my eye on this one cause I got enough animes this season.

EDIT: Ok I started the show(its on CR) and well I found out its by Sunrise them pulling something questionable in one of the episodes is not beyond them. I mean you don't have to look that far to see Valvere the liberator about one year ago HAD A FUCKING RAPE SCENE. So yeah I am not surprised but digging this mecha design. So yeah guys nothing beyound WTF Japan and people who don't get it whining again about something that they should be used to by now or just not watch..

WTF Japan is not an excuse for me or many other people. Japan is not some abnormality in culture; the way it treats rape is almost the same as America does which is to say "you better be damn careful not to be tasteless". Also, if Sunrise has done this before, WHY WOULD THEY DO IT AGAIN, ITS GOING TO BACKFIRE.

A few more points

-Why go through the rectum to operate on the spine? There are several inches between the rectum and the very tip of the spine and that's not taking into account the twisting nature of the lower intestine and the thickness of the intestine wall. Also, why the lower spine? If you want good neurological signals, the back of the neck or the brain are better signal receiving areas.

-Why is there a scene of naked women fondling each other after the credits? I know that being stuck what is essentially a prison with other women around you will lead to circumstances but why did it have to be on screen? Is it to show how society has changed like in Brave New World or Shin Sekai Yori because I am very doubtful of that.

-What is so intrinsic to women that only they are norma? Is it the extra x chromosome because that would imply recessive traits which would be eliminated by now given how long these programs have probably been going.

-Why would the brother mate with his own sister? History has shown that repeated intermixing of family members like this leads to deformities and also make it easy for the families to die off. If it's just for "i'm evil", then there are better ways of doing it than sodding inbreeding.

This show is not worth making excuses, it's just tasteless. it's spiteful and hateful and deserves to be in the garbage.

Oh god... talking about japan without having any idea about japan in the first place...

No its not going to backfire.. because they dont care what some sensitive people in the US think about them. That anime isnt even licensed in the western hemisphere, they couldnt even care less what you think even if they tried.

Heres some advice: Dont like it? DONT WATCH IT! Not that you actually payed to watch it or that you are making any money for sunrise by watching fan-subs anyways.. so why should they listen to you in the first place? Why should it "backfire" on them when it didnt backfired on them with valrave?

This anime was apparantly not made for you then... DEAL WITH IT! There are two other mecha anime out this season that absolutely will not have any rape or even sexual undertones at all. Gundam reconquista of G or whatever and gundam build fighters season 2

Furthermore i have noticed you blowing the rape whistle on the forums alot lately and honestly it gets very tiresome that every time somewhere someone uses rape in a story you will be here to blow it out of proportion imidiantly.

What comes next? "Like this if youre against rape in anime"? The scene was there to symbolise the princess fall from being at the very top of society to the lowest of the low, treated worse then dirt by everyone she has ever known and trusted. Also the inbreeding? Was very commonplace among royal bloodlines till shortly before the industrial age. European royal bloodlines are so intermingled with each other that you could invite a couple of them and find out that they are all related to each other despite the fact you invited them from a dozen or so countries.

Base point is:

You are not their customer AT ALL. You dont even PAY for their work or generate any income for them. You have no right to complain about what is in or isnt in the series. This series wasnt even made for western market.

And yes Japanese culture IS completly different from anything we have here in the west. And you dont have any right to critique their culture if you dont live there either. Its their culture and you should respect that.

Or when was the last time you heard the japanese ***** about US gun laws?

You pirate their content and then have the balls to complain about it? Bold move there Izanagi.. bold move.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

Sounds like anime as usual. Wouldn't have it any other way.

Oh look the same guy that made the SAO rape thread...

My advise...Stop watching anime please.

What he did something about that..... lol I wish I was here for that blow up. Still its anime you should probaly know by now the signs if its going to be fanservicey and I new it about 5 seconds in. Is your Ecchi senses that weak OP?!

I am just going to keep this in mind, some people think rape counts as fanservice and is acceptable as such. Be careful, your gg is showing.

It is. That lack of boundaries is what makes this medium wonderful.

I love how all the people defending this have anime avatars and their defense is usually "I've seen worse, so it's ok!" Priceless.

It is.

Stop liking what I don't like!

Fixed that for you.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip

A. this is a show on crunchyroll so I was actually watching this legally. Nowadays, I will comment on stuff that has a stream or I'm watching on stream. If the show is old and has passed like Fate/Zero, funsubs are the only option at that point and I apologize.

B. Valvrave got a license to be streamed on Crunchyroll when it came out. To say it wasn't licensed is contrary to the stream that occurred.

C. wait, the scene in Valvrave didn't backfire in Japan? dear lord either the public doesn't cover it (likely) or the audience didn't care (equally likely)

D. I have given an example of rape in anime in reference to Psycho Pass multiple times. The scene was shot from a distance, the woman was not in any glorified poses and it was tasteful. Having watched Cross Ange, this isn't tasteful at all.

E. In regards to the inbreeding, that's the point. Why, if there is precedent of failure for royal inbreeding would you want to do it again.

F. They could have done the fall from grace motif in a way that wasn't so dissonant in tone in relation to other scenes or framed so poorly. This type of thing can work but I would argue that you are making an exaggeration of my reaction and responses.

 

[NoeL]

I love how all the people defending this have anime avatars and their defense is usually "I've seen worse, so it's ok!" Priceless.

Anyway, I find "pornographic rape" to be pretty sickening and encourage people that enjoy it to question their choice of entertainment. Is it worse than the West's gore fetish? Hmm... inherently no, but socially yes. Rape porn is almost exclusively violence against women, so when pornographic rape is normalised in culture it can influence some very unhealthy attitudes towards women (and towards men, from the woman's perspective). It creates a divide between the genders. Gore in the West tends to be gender indiscriminate, so even when it becomes normalised in culture it isn't so divisive. There's still something to be said about a culture that glorifies blowing each other apart though, no doubt.

 

[SAMAS]

Having seen the episode/scene in question, while I agree the scene was done to convey Rape, I feel that it was done to invoke Ange's violation and loss, rather than titillating the audience. At least, that was the impression I walked away with.

 

[edomaeexa]

For those who are criticizing the Japanese culture and this anime, look around you. Almost any show in TV today save for kids shows have sexual themes on them, but are spineless to actually portray sex or rape. If you follow the story rather than focusing in the rape scene, you will know why the anime may have included this. This is like a wake up call. It shows a girl, being trampled by society, discriminated and treated like trash, exactly how we see and treat girls today as sluts (Not my opinion). This is a anime intended for girls and the first episode showed it.

The writers aren't afraid to include the rape scene as it really impacts what you think ABOUT WOMEN, there is a reason why only the girls in this anime are being discriminated. If you think this is a rape scene for wank, you are blind, it is clear that this anime will be heavy with mature themes. if you don't understand the story, don't criticise any aspect of it.

About the incest and the paedophilia portrayal in this anime , this only reinforce what the topic the anime is going to be based on. i think the brother only thinks of younger sister as a tool to breed children, i dare say its exactly what men see girls nowadays. this anime is reflecting the modern attitudes towards girls AND MANY WILL NOT LIKE IT.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Having seen the episode/scene in question, while I agree the scene was done to convey Rape, I feel that it was done to invoke Ange's violation and loss, rather than titillating the audience. At least, that was the impression I walked away with.

Perhaps, but the framing of the scenes before and after it were what killed it for me and many others

 

[EmpReb]

All in all OP I think you failed at your intend point of this thread. I for one found a show I might watching along with the few others that didn't hear about until you started this "its bad ANIME" whine fest. So if your true intention was to get more people to watch the show you succeeded with flying colors if not you really don't know how the internet works do you?

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

All in all OP I think you failed at your intend point of this thread. I for one found a show I might watching along with the few others that didn't hear about until you started this "its bad ANIME" whine fest. So if your true intention was to get more people to watch the show you succeeded with flying colors if not you really don't know how the internet works do you?

I suppose I forgot about the Streisand effect so I concede that point

I do still feel that though scenes of this nature need to be discussed or at least allow the public to be informed about it. I say it as tasteless and tone deaf, you may see it as something else but I wanted to bring it to attention since critically, it seemed to cause a small storm on the ANN impressions.

Edit: just a note that if you want to talk to me about something, quote me so it would be easy to respond

 

[iTomes]

So, without actually having seen the Anime, what exactly is all the fuss about? If you dont like it, dont watch it. If you do like it feel free to watch it. Like with any other form of entertainment media, really. If the artists want to depict or hint at something that you do not want to see in an Anime then why not simply not watch it instead of ***** about it on the internet?

As a consumer you have the full control over what you desire to consume from a rather broad selection of available products. Its pretty clear that this particular product does not appeal to the taste of some or even a lot of people and hence they as responsible consumers can make the conscious decision to simply not watch it. Why be mad about it existing?

 

[Quickman]

The Anime and Manga publishers should address these issues and upgrade their cultural awareness to expand outside the regions of Japan (if indeed, they even care how their image is projected or if they just don't care for some strange reason). This should not be something argued amongst fans, but the inner morals of the industry itself. Apparently there are severe issues within modern day Japan because of how sexuality is shown,taught to, and perceived by certain youth. There's even a documentary out where it analyzes the modern day perception of masculinity and how modern youth feel after the loss from World War II and how some struggle with this intense cultural identity/inward struggle.

 

[VectorSlip]

All in all OP I think you failed at your intend point of this thread. I for one found a show I might watching along with the few others that didn't hear about until you started this "its bad ANIME" whine fest. So if your true intention was to get more people to watch the show you succeeded with flying colors if not you really don't know how the internet works do you?

I suppose I forgot about the Streisand effect so I concede that point

I do still feel that though scenes of this nature need to be discussed or at least allow the public to be informed about it. I say it as tasteless and tone deaf, you may see it as something else but I wanted to bring it to attention since critically, it seemed to cause a small storm on the ANN impressions.

Edit: just a note that if you want to talk to me about something, quote me so it would be easy to respond

I was wondering why you never responded to my post earlier in the thread :/ The quote system is still a little confusing for me since its at the top instead of the bottom of posts. I'd like to think my post was one of the many reasonable dissenting responses to your thread that was at least a little worthy of being addressed.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

So I just watched the episode in question and I don't actually see what most of the problem is.

The beginning is great. Gundam's vs Magic dragons. Huge guns and fire everywhere. Whats not to like. Then Angelise and her position in the world. How she see's it and how the world works is established. The Norma prejuidce is well laid out as something pretty much normal and something to be celebrated. You want to talk about tonal dissonance? Talk about angelise saying that outright exterminating a group of people will maintain peace while keeping a straight face.

The reveal of her being a norma is also handled really well. Her brother's ambitions are revealed, her denial and her society's rejection of her, all well done. It went to show how even someone who you've potentially been the closest of comardes with for years is willing to outright abandon you if you're declared a norma. It really showed just how deep this society's prejudice runs and that was great.

Then we get to the island with the controversial scene. All I have to say about that is that I don't understand where a negative reaction intense enough to say that the entirety of the show isn't worth watching and that the whole episode is retroactively ruined because of it, is coming from. The entire scene from the moment she got onto the island was intense. her denial about herself and her mother's death, her desperate pleas to be recognized as part of the royalty and hold on to the last few items that represent that. Her being forcible stripped and chained down, her absolute powerlessness. All leading up to the examination (which from my perspective looked just a physical). And even if it was more than just an examination or just a regular physical that moment was pretty much representative of the complete destruction of who she thought she was. That was where that moment and scene derived its power from.

Yes there was a 3 second ass shot. So what. That didn't at all take away from the scene, at least for me. And that was because there was simply so much more going on in that scene that, even though I didn't like her or how she treated the normas, I didn't want her to be violated. I was praying for some last second of mercy from the doctor. But that never came. And ultimately the scene was better for it.

As for the dissonance you detected with the end credits scene, I have to ask. Did you watch the whole thing or even the intro? Because its pretty obvious that scene with the lesbians in the suite is meant to be a sharp contrast between Ange's newfound state of powerlessness and the suite. Its obvious that the red head girl (whom we see from the intro is going to be on Ange's team) Is the current big dog on campus. She has her own suite and her own harem of women at her disposal. Notice how immediately after we see that suite we see Ange on the floor crying. This is establishing the relationship we are going to see between them (ange and the red head) in future episodes. And the music stays sad the whole way through so I don't see this dissonance you are talking about.

Ultimately I think you were too quick to judge and to harsh. I've never really been into mobile suit anime but this one grabbed me and I plan to watch it in the days to come. I want to see how Ange grows and changes, how her world works and evolves with her and how she is going to handle her new life as a norma. One scene isn't going to change that for me. Especially since I actually consider the scene to actually be particularly well done. Sorry.

Well I will respond to your post, thanks for bringing it to my attention. this is very well constructed but I just had stuff pop up

The tonal dissonance between the framing of the panties and ass, the actual physical and the following scene with the girls naked may not be dissonant to you but to me, it seems very dissonant to go from fanservice with a transparent nightgown to torture to softcore lesbian and back to torture. While I understand what they were trying to go for with the fall from grace, the framing just seems a bit much and there have to be better ways of writing it. As for the relation between red-head and Ange, couldn't they develop that in the next episode with more normal conflict because I couldn't get that admittedly reasonable assumption from the first episode because of the mood backlash taking most of my attention; the music may not be different between them but the imagery sure was.

As for the rest of the show, the concept is fun, the animation rock solid, music top notch and while I did overexaggerate the similarities to Seed, it's not a bad place to start; if they start pulling entire scenes from it I will call bull but again, first episode.

I hate to say it though but the writing around the scene in question and the fanservice in contrast to the brutality are enough for me to be wary. I suppose I will wait for impressions from episode 2 but I don't have high hopes

 

[CrystalShadow]

"Here's info about an out of context scene including rape!"


You can say the same out of context gibberish about Berserk too. Doesn't mean it's not one of the best things ever. Why do you need to sound the alarm? To protect people's sensitive sensibilities? Sounds kinda silly to me.


This sounds utterly sensationalist, pointless and all in all an effort in trying to make a big deal and spurn outrage out of nothing. You don't need to base what you watch on previews, especially not such highly sensetionalized ones. Not unless you're uber-unfamiliar with the genre and don't know naruto from gurren lagann or something.


It's just one more scene in one more anime, the end.

There is no context given. Thats a problem. Its meant to look like rape and arouse the viewers. Thats all is to it. It's not rape yes but it looks like rape and thats enough ruin the whole thing. Tone doesn't match the theme of the show.

Wow. That's disturbing in and of itself, that, regardless of context, anyone would think to make rape seem arousing... (I know, that's not even what the scene is, but if it's presentef that way...)

Now, maybe you'd have to have experienced it to truly understand it, but 'arousing' is pretty much the furthest thing from my mind when depictions of rape are involved...
It's sad to think there are people around that expect to get that kind of reaction from it...

 

[sumanoskae]

Okay, so since I haven't seen this show, and I can't find the first episode anywhere, I'm just going to comment based on the information presented so far.

Let's say for the sake of argument that this scene is every bit as awful and tasteless as everyone says it is.

What is your point, exactly? Are you saying it's of abysmal quality? That holds true for many anime/games/movies/etc; why single this one out?

Are you saying it's explicit? Ever heard of A Serbian Film? Ever read Berserk? I'm gonna assume that Berserk of much higher quality than this show, but quality or lack-there-of is an entirely subjective judgement. You can't expect everyone to refrain from offending you with their art if it's below a certain level of (what you consider to be) quality.

Are you trying to say that it is somehow unethical? It's a show; it's lights on a screen and sound from a pair of speakers; if one TV show is doing anybody a significant amount of tangible harm, that person has some issues of their own they need to work out.

No matter how much a piece of fiction offends you, it isn't real; it isn't that big a deal.

 

[Boogie Knight]

Two words: Bible Black

There's a place for non sequitur scenes of violation, it's called hentai. Near pornographic fanservice in your dumb anime is fine and all, but I assume this aired somewhere. Unless your program is a Shakespearean biker drama or something on HBO, rape might be a little too heavy. I would loooooove for it to turn out there were artistic and thematic reasons for the scene, but I wouldn't bet much on that.

Not sure how this program compares on the creepy scale compared to anime like Freezing which was just all kinds of not right. However, I think the original poster's actions will prove counter productive as it just raised the profile of the series a little more. Just look at how much it got people talking right here.

 

[VectorSlip]

'snip (I really hope i did this right)

Well I will respond to your post, thanks for bringing it to my attention. this is very well constructed but I just had stuff pop up

The tonal dissonance between the framing of the panties and ass, the actual physical and the following scene with the girls naked may not be dissonant to you but to me, it seems very dissonant to go from fanservice with a transparent nightgown to torture to softcore lesbian and back to torture. While I understand what they were trying to go for with the fall from grace, the framing just seems a bit much and there have to be better ways of writing it. As for the relation between red-head and Ange, couldn't they develop that in the next episode with more normal conflict because I couldn't get that admittedly reasonable assumption from the first episode because of the mood backlash taking most of my attention; the music may not be different between them but the imagery sure was.

As for the rest of the show, the concept is fun, the animation rock solid, music top notch and while I did overexaggerate the similarities to Seed, it's not a bad place to start; if they start pulling entire scenes from it I will call bull but again, first episode.

I hate to say it though but the writing around the scene in question and the fanservice in contrast to the brutality are enough for me to be wary. I suppose I will wait for impressions from episode 2 but I don't have high hopes

Thanks! And your reaction is understandable. For me, the reason I'm able to see past the fanservice is because I have watched quite a few ecchi anime in my time, 2 seasons of queens blade, Manyuu Hikenchou, Maken ki, High school DxD/ Highschool of the dead, Seikon no Quasar, the list goes on. Its because of that deep pool of experience that I can readily tell that save for the final suite scene the fanservice in this anime is VERY light and because of that Im able to not be fazed by it and focus on the thematic elements fully at play here. Case in point, the balcony scene wasn't anything particularly rousing or special for me, just a mother and daughter conversing in their nightgowns before bed. While the sexiness element is still there it isnt actually particularly emphasized, but played off as a natural comfortable occurrence which I thought was neat. Obviously you came to a different interpretation of the scene and how it meshed into the episode as a whole. Thats fine too but I would still encourage you to try and think about things from a different perspective before ringing alarm bells, even if you did so unintentionally.

Personally I think that ending scene being in the first episode fit pretty well especially with the scene we were given prior. And ultimately, could the scene have been written better? Maybe. From my perspective it flowed perfectly well from what had been built up in the first 3/4ths of the episode.

All in all im glad to see that you will be giving the show another shot. If I had stopped on the first few chapters of Jojo because of the admittedly sub-standard art and slow plot I would have missed out on what is now currently one of my favorite mangas/ animes. Some times all it takes is a deep breath and a second look. While this show may not end up being for you Im still happy that you aren't completely giving up on it yet.

Also when is that fate/zero spotlight going to come out? I can't wait to see what a fellow lover of that show thinks of it and took away from it

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

I love how all the people defending this have anime avatars and their defense is usually "I've seen worse, so it's ok!" Priceless.

Anyway, I find "pornographic rape" to be pretty sickening and encourage people that enjoy it to question their choice of entertainment. Is it worse than the West's gore fetish? Hmm... inherently no, but socially yes. Rape porn is almost exclusively violence against women, so when pornographic rape is normalised in culture it can influence some very unhealthy attitudes towards women (and towards men, from the woman's perspective). It creates a divide between the genders. Gore in the West tends to be gender indiscriminate, so even when it becomes normalised in culture it isn't so divisive. There's still something to be said about a culture that glorifies blowing each other apart though, no doubt.

or maybe...just maybe, we shouldn't think we know what's best for people based on what they like. I think I can tell that I'm not suppose to treat something that doesn't exist to a real human being.

And you do know there are woman who do have rape fetishes? Sure, it may be creepy, but so what? Who are you to tell them what they can't do?

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

'snip (I really hope i did this right)

Well I will respond to your post, thanks for bringing it to my attention. this is very well constructed but I just had stuff pop up

The tonal dissonance between the framing of the panties and ass, the actual physical and the following scene with the girls naked may not be dissonant to you but to me, it seems very dissonant to go from fanservice with a transparent nightgown to torture to softcore lesbian and back to torture. While I understand what they were trying to go for with the fall from grace, the framing just seems a bit much and there have to be better ways of writing it. As for the relation between red-head and Ange, couldn't they develop that in the next episode with more normal conflict because I couldn't get that admittedly reasonable assumption from the first episode because of the mood backlash taking most of my attention; the music may not be different between them but the imagery sure was.

As for the rest of the show, the concept is fun, the animation rock solid, music top notch and while I did overexaggerate the similarities to Seed, it's not a bad place to start; if they start pulling entire scenes from it I will call bull but again, first episode.

I hate to say it though but the writing around the scene in question and the fanservice in contrast to the brutality are enough for me to be wary. I suppose I will wait for impressions from episode 2 but I don't have high hopes

Thanks! And your reaction is understandable. For me, the reason I'm able to see past the fanservice is because I have watched quite a few ecchi anime in my time, 2 seasons of queens blade, Manyuu Hikenchou, Maken ki, High school DxD/ Highschool of the dead, Seikon no Quasar, the list goes on. Its because of that deep pool of experience that I can readily tell that save for the final suite scene the fanservice in this anime is VERY light and because of that Im able to not be fazed by it and focus on the thematic elements fully at play here. Case in point, the balcony scene wasn't anything particularly rousing or special for me, just a mother and daughter conversing in their nightgowns before bed. While the sexiness element is still there it isnt actually particularly emphasized, but played off as a natural comfortable occurrence which I thought was neat. Obviously you came to a different interpretation of the scene and how it meshed into the episode as a whole. Thats fine too but I would still encourage you to try and think about things from a different perspective before ringing alarm bells, even if you did so unintentionally.

Personally I think that ending scene being in the first episode fit pretty well especially with the scene we were given prior. And ultimately, could the scene have been written better? Maybe. From my perspective it flowed perfectly well from what had been built up in the first 3/4ths of the episode.

All in all im glad to see that you will be giving the show another shot. If I had stopped on the first few chapters of Jojo because of the admittedly sub-standard art and slow plot I would have missed out on what is now currently one of my favorite mangas/ animes. Some times all it takes is a deep breath and a second look. While this show may not end up being for you Im still happy that you aren't completely giving up on it yet.

Also when is that fate/zero spotlight going to come out? I can't wait to see what a fellow lover of that show thinks of it and took away from it

I will give the show a shot if news from other sources say it's been toned down from this but I make no promises since this scene is supposed to be a good foot forward for the show and it fumbled big time for me.

Also I understand that you are able to ignore the fanservice and see the conversation and thematic parts but to me, the camera is in the hands of the animator so what we see is what we are to focus on and when we have panties and ass during the scene, it gives a mixed signal to say the least. The balcony scene is much lighter so i didn't initially talk about it but it feels a bit out of place in a serious talk and Kill La Kill was only able to get away with it because it had previously established the insane tone of the show; Cross Ange has not established a tone like Kill la kill's so having a balcony talk with the clothing the way it is seems a bit off putting. There is also my general beef with how some fanservice can get really irritating and out of place for some shows and how it feels that fanservice is a cheap way to hide poor writing (see Momo Kyun Sword for some of the most ridiculous fanservice covering bad plots). I understand that erotiism and plot are not exclusive but it takes some good writing for me to think that your show is more than just wank material with only the barest of plots to move the show along slowly (See Infinite Stratos, how I surivived that I have no idea).

As for the Fate/zero review, I will try to get it out on Sunday but I have exams so no promises