Miyamoto Refocusing on Hardcore; Casual Gamers' Passive Attitude "Pathetic"

[RicoADF]

Glad to hear Nintendo, with Bayonetta, Wonderful 101 and a few other games you've got my attention, make a few more that appeal to me then we'll talk.

So their plan now is to try to delight the hardcore? Well, just so long as their hardware isn't hugely underpowered, and their third party situation isn't abysmal, they might have a chance to pull that off. Oh, wait.

Nintendo could make their own games, it's not like their lacking in the skills. Or they could pull another Bayonetta and have 2nd party games made (independent devs who's games are published/paid for by Nintendo).

 

[OldNewNewOld]

I think it's pathetic you make a game, skin Mario characters on to it and then people eat it up! Or the bare faced fucking cheek of remaking a pokémon game! They are all more or less the same game with different pokémon, all they have to do is think up another 100 or so and BAM, 2 new games (which is cheeky as well. Imagine if street fighter did that, released 2 versions of the same game with 5 fighters exclusive to one and a different 5 exclusive to the other) ... then to not even be bothered to think of another 100+, and just remake an old game but people still go ape shit for it!

I think it's fucked up people hate on COD for being the same game every year, when it probably has more changes than the Mario Franchise.

I think Nintendo is the most over rated company by a huge mile.

I think you're trying too hard to fit into the Nintendo hate group.
You obviously didn't play and Mario games. COD having much more changes than Mario? Really? You want to tell me that Mario 3, Mario 3D World, NSMBU and Galaxy are pretty much the same game? Are you, in all seriousness telling me that those are the same game?

 

[Olas]

How is "going where the money is" something to be criticized for? It's what businesses do, and Nintendo's push for the casual market with the Wii made them mad dough while it lasted. The fact that Nintendo isn't stupid enough to stay on a sinking ship isn't something to be mad about.

Okay, ya it's a little hypocritical for the guy that showed off Wii Music to complain about the filthy casuals, but ultimately he's just being a spokesman for the games Nintendo makes, not some sort of gaming connoisseur.

Its not the act of going where the money is that im critisizing. Heck they would be stupid not to.

Its that they cover it in layers of BS.

Nintendo threw away their harcore loyal fanbase for the casual market with noses raised high in the air at the dirty hardcore gamers.

First of all, Nintendo was not appealing to a "hardcore" demographic before the Wii, and they did not stop appealing to their main fanbase during the Wii's lifetime. What exactly makes Super Mario Galaxy more casual than say... Mario 64, or any Mario Game? Before the Wii the 2 newest Nintendo IPs were Animal Crossing and Pikmin, neither I would catagorize as hardcore by most people's definition. The Wii also launched with Twilight Princess, one of the darker installments in the Zelda Franchise. The mere fact that the Wii had party games and tons of shovelware doesn't mean Nintendo was abandoning their base. They Still made a Smash game, (commissioned)2 Metroid games, made 2 Zelda's, and even revived the DK franchise.

I'm not saying Nintendo didn't skew more "kiddie" during the Wii period. But I think people greatly exaggerate the degree of it because they themselves were growing up and other companies were starting to make darker and more mature games to appeal to them, making Nintendo look younger by contrast.

Now nintendo throws away the casual market (or rather the casual market threw them away) and they still have their noses high in the air even insulting casual gamers as pathetic, when the truth is that those casuals are simply not interested in nintento anymore, and that sure as hell is not their fault. Heck myamoto even bemoans that their customers DARE to expect to be entertained by nintendo products... wtf?

I think you Miyamoto has a different idea of casual than you. I suspect he's talking about cheap simple games that you download for free that don't have much depth or complexity of mechanics, things like 2 Dots or Flappy Bird. Even games like Kirby's Epic Yarn had a lot of content and relatively complex controls compared to these kind of games.

This isnt honesty.. this isnt saying "yeah we bet on the wrong horse, but now we have our heads straight again"

This is acting like someone who cheated on their significant other and now comes back because their little affair didnt turn out to be something lasting and think by insulting said affair they will make it up to their ex.

If the analogy works, it's only because you sound like a bitter ex. Nintendo has never had any sort of commitment to a certain fanbase. It sucks if they stop making the kind of games you like, but they're free to do it, and treating it like some sort of personal betrayal is just childish.

 

[Callate]

Or to put it another way, "go soak your head, Pachter".

I don't doubt he'll take some flak for this, but I approve. And really, the way he's defining "casual" isn't a way most gamers who considered it would disapprove of; it sounds like he's less talking about people playing Fruit Ninja or Angry Birds than games that barely require the player's input beyond proving that he or she exists (a la most of Zynga's wheelhouse.)

 

[Triality]

I hope this means the little boy that wanted to explore the caves in the woods behind his house is back. Cause that child's games were amazing.

 

[Nurb]

How is "going where the money is" something to be criticized for? It's what businesses do, and Nintendo's push for the casual market with the Wii made them mad dough while it lasted. The fact that Nintendo isn't stupid enough to stay on a sinking ship isn't something to be mad about.

Okay, ya it's a little hypocritical for the guy that showed off Wii Music to complain about the filthy casuals, but ultimately he's just being a spokesman for the games Nintendo makes, not some sort of gaming connoisseur.

Its not the act of going where the money is that im critisizing. Heck they would be stupid not to.

Its that they cover it in layers of BS.

Nintendo threw away their harcore loyal fanbase for the casual market with noses raised high in the air at the dirty hardcore gamers.

First of all, Nintendo was not appealing to a "hardcore" demographic before the Wii, and they did not stop appealing to their main fanbase during the Wii's lifetime. What exactly makes Super Mario Galaxy more casual than say... Mario 64, or any Mario Game? Before the Wii the 2 newest Nintendo IPs were Animal Crossing and Pikmin, neither I would catagorize as hardcore by most people's definition. The Wii also launched with Twilight Princess, one of the darker installments in the Zelda Franchise. The mere fact that the Wii had party games and tons of shovelware doesn't mean Nintendo was abandoning their base. They Still made a Smash game, (commissioned)2 Metroid games, made 2 Zelda's, and even revived the DK franchise.

I'm not saying Nintendo didn't skew more "kiddie" during the Wii period. But I think people greatly exaggerate the degree of it because they themselves were growing up and other companies were starting to make darker and more mature games to appeal to them, making Nintendo look younger by contrast.

Now nintendo throws away the casual market (or rather the casual market threw them away) and they still have their noses high in the air even insulting casual gamers as pathetic, when the truth is that those casuals are simply not interested in nintento anymore, and that sure as hell is not their fault. Heck myamoto even bemoans that their customers DARE to expect to be entertained by nintendo products... wtf?

I think you Miyamoto has a different idea of casual than you. I suspect he's talking about cheap simple games that you download for free that don't have much depth or complexity of mechanics, things like 2 Dots or Flappy Bird. Even games like Kirby's Epic Yarn had a lot of content and relatively complex controls compared to these kind of games.

This isnt honesty.. this isnt saying "yeah we bet on the wrong horse, but now we have our heads straight again"

This is acting like someone who cheated on their significant other and now comes back because their little affair didnt turn out to be something lasting and think by insulting said affair they will make it up to their ex.

If the analogy works, it's only because you sound like a bitter ex. Nintendo has never had any sort of commitment to a certain fanbase. It sucks if they stop making the kind of games you like, but they're free to do it, and treating it like some sort of personal betrayal is just childish.

They have every right to be bitter, Nintendo actively went about talking down to their core fanbase who didn't like their focus on gimmicks and the casual market and wanted games like they had on the Gamecube and N64. Nintendo told them they were basically just children and painted them as detatched from reality while playing "traditional games" while pitching their fitness and hand waving reliant software.

But now the "Ex" is crawling back after their casual customer base jumped ship for the mobile devices trying to win them over again by talking trash about the folks that dumped them, and I don't think Nintendo deserves to be forgiven so easily.

I'll repost a pic from my original post:

Spoiler: Click

 

[BrotherRool]

Im not 100% what hes trying to say here. Best interpretation he's realised that the casual market is not as beneficial or loyal consumer base and is trying to refocus his efforts and leave the casual market to mobile gaming.

Worse case he's saying that people cant enjoy games unless they are difficult. Maybe a little from column A and a little from column B.

Either way I have to say nintendo have expanded there audience as much as they can, with consoles like the Wii being more favorable to casual players, and maybe it is time to pay more attention to long time fans

Edit: Also 'Pathetic' could have been a harsh word because of translation, again trying to be favorable here, could be completely wrong

I hope its a translation thing. I could believe that someone would translate his words in the harshest possible light.

It feels mostly column A, but maybe that's too on the nose? It reads like he's super disappointed that he couldn't actually convince any of the Wii's casual audience to buy more games or upgrade their console and so they've decided the Wii casual demographic strategy isn't something they can pursue.


It's kind of unfortunate that they couldn't discover this before the Wii U was released. Maybe the drop off in Wii sales towards the end could have been a sign? Because now they've got a 1-2 year window whilst the publishers are still making crossplatform games to convince all the third-parties and consumers that it's not worth using the extra hardware. And if they fail at that, I doubt they stand a chance at successfully pursuing the non-casual market. So few people are going to want a games library 1/10th of the size of what it could be.

And the Wii U always seemed like a bad console for pure casuals. If the success of the Wii is that it's inherently fun watching your friends looking stupid using it, then the Wii U is that again except one of those friends gets to not look stupid which is terrible.

They've tried sitting on the fence and realised that fences are just big blunt wooden spikes

That headline is incredibly misleading. Nowhere does Miyamoto say anything about 'casuals', just gamers who expect the game to be driving the entertainment as opposed to gamers who use the game to create challenge for themselves.

And what a terrible crime that is. How pathetic are people these days, expecting entertainment to entertain them Seriously I hope that's not what he means because whats the point on hating on people because they get their pleasures differently from you. All this 'real gamers challenge themselves' is just BS that makes the people saying it sound waaaay too intense for what they're actually talking about. They're not training for the SAS or trying to get a uni degree. Challenging yourself can be fun, but if that's not what your into what's 'pathetic' about that?

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

I lol at this cause a member of the Nintendo Defense Force once argued to me that Nintendo is better because because they don't pander to "hardcore gamers" like they used to. To which I replied that Nintendo changes to where the money's at so don't be surprised when they abandon the casual crowd next. And now the words are coming from the mouth of Miyamoto himself.

I'm definitely looking forward to the change though. Its obvious their focus changed with the new smash game and their Nintendo direct announcements

 

[Madmonk12345]

'okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.'

I'm all for this new mindset that Nintendo has, but isn't this kinda the ultimate point of video games? To be entertained? Anyway, here's hoping for the best for Nintendo

I can understand, in the sense that games can be more than pulp fun. They can say something. They can make the gamer question his or her values, or explore complex character. Just look at spec ops and SH2. The problem is that Nintendo has never made these kinds of games.

Sorry to be the pedant here, but this isn't strictly speaking true. Nintendo has certainly been involved in the development of games that aren't just pulp fun and aren't out to say anything. See Mother 3, Majora's Mask, Link's Awakening even.

While they may have some pulp fun elements, they all have something to say, explore complex characters, and can make the player rethink their morals and values. Heck, Mother 3 even uses it's pulp fun and comedy to hide foreshadowing and the depth of its setting, causing players to ignore critical details so the game can surprise the player with moral questions to ponder at the end.

 

[oplinger]

That headline is incredibly misleading. Nowhere does Miyamoto say anything about 'casuals', just gamers who expect the game to be driving the entertainment as opposed to gamers who use the game to create challenge for themselves.

And what a terrible crime that is. How pathetic are people these days, expecting entertainment to entertain them Seriously I hope that's not what he means because whats the point on hating on people because they get their pleasures differently from you. All this 'real gamers challenge themselves' is just BS that makes the people saying it sound waaaay too intense for what they're actually talking about. They're not training for the SAS or trying to get a uni degree. Challenging yourself can be fun, but if that's not what your into what's 'pathetic' about that?

I think you miss the point. it's not about expecting entertainment to entertain them, or people getting their pleasures differently from you.

In the quote he likens it to people wanting to watch a movie. He uses the word "passive." He is not saying anything about "real gamers"

The short quote we have only says that it's pathetic if you only play games for them to entertain you like a movie. To passively expect the fun to come to you.

To extrapolate on that, you can't even have a game do -anything- without your input. So it is sort of pathetic to expect the game to entertain you in a passive manner. It's an active medium, and where all the potential lies in with those games that you interact with, with the people who "take it a step further."

He's stating the differences between being a part of the entertainment, and just watching the entertainment.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

First of all, Nintendo was not appealing to a "hardcore" demographic before the Wii, and they did not stop appealing to their main fanbase during the Wii's lifetime. What exactly makes Super Mario Galaxy more casual than say... Mario 64, or any Mario Game? Before the Wii the 2 newest Nintendo IPs were Animal Crossing and Pikmin, neither I would catagorize as hardcore by most people's definition. The Wii also launched with Twilight Princess, one of the darker installments in the Zelda Franchise. The mere fact that the Wii had party games and tons of shovelware doesn't mean Nintendo was abandoning their base. They Still made a Smash game, (commissioned)2 Metroid games, made 2 Zelda's, and even revived the DK franchise.

Its more than that. The Wii is literally a reskined gamecube. Did the Wii improve on anything over the gamecube? All it did was add wifi, bluetooth, and motion controls and the graphics are virtually the same. And Smash Bros Brawl is the opposite of a good example. Brawl was designed to not be competitive so it wouldn't be more than a party game, particularly with the infamous tripping mechanic which makes competitive gameplay impossible. The new Smash with their "for glory" mode makes it clear they've done a 180. Twilight Princess was originally intended to release on the GameCube and I aced Metroid Prime 3 on its hardest difficulty while I couldn't even beat the first Prime on normal. And where were the 3rd parties? The GameCube wasn't known for its 3rd party library but it got a decent number of titles like Freedom Fighters. The Wii had absolutely no chance of good third party games coming to it without being horribly gimped. Not only that, Nintendo actually made a few horror games for the gamecube with Eternal Darkness and Geist (not great, but it existed) while they've made none for the Wii. They weren't loaded with these kinds of games but they were at least a possibility

Sorry to be the pedant here, but this isn't strictly speaking true. Nintendo has certainly been involved in the development of games that aren't just pulp fun and aren't out to say anything. See Mother 3, Majora's Mask, Link's Awakening even.

And yet Mother 3 came out almost 10 years ago (not even in America), Majora's Mask came out 14 years ago, and Link's Awakening came out 21 years ago. The point is that Nintendo stopped making games like that, not that they never did

 

[Saltyk]

How is "going where the money is" something to be criticized for? It's what businesses do, and Nintendo's push for the casual market with the Wii made them mad dough while it lasted. The fact that Nintendo isn't stupid enough to stay on a sinking ship isn't something to be mad about.

Okay, ya it's a little hypocritical for the guy that showed off Wii Music to complain about the filthy casuals, but ultimately he's just being a spokesman for the games Nintendo makes, not some sort of gaming connoisseur.

Its not the act of going where the money is that im critisizing. Heck they would be stupid not to.

Its that they cover it in layers of BS.

Nintendo threw away their harcore loyal fanbase for the casual market with noses raised high in the air at the dirty hardcore gamers.

Now nintendo throws away the casual market (or rather the casual market threw them away) and they still have their noses high in the air even insulting casual gamers as pathetic, when the truth is that those casuals are simply not interested in nintento anymore, and that sure as hell is not their fault. Heck myamoto even bemoans that their customers DARE to expect to be entertained by nintendo products... wtf?

This isnt honesty.. this isnt saying "yeah we bet on the wrong horse, but now we have our heads straight again"

This is acting like someone who cheated on their significant other and now comes back because their little affair didnt turn out to be something lasting and think by insulting said affair they will make it up to their ex.

Oh please... first its all "Hardcore isnt our market anymore, casuals is where its at" with the Wii... and when said casuals leave you for mobile devices you suddenly act like "damn them casuals! They arent real gamers anyways! Lets focus on the hardcore crowd again!"

First of, there's that. But closely related:

"Their attitude is, 'okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.' It's kind of a passive attitude they're taking, and to me it's kind of a pathetic thing."

It's kind of what you're supposed to do, though. Do your freaking job. This comes off as petulant whining. Especially since they spent a generation advertising their games as shiny squeak toys for children.

Pretty much this. I find Nintendo returning to focus on the hardcore crowd a good thing, but it comes off like returning to an old lover after the one you left them for dumped you, as Karadalis said. And it seems a bit shallow. Not that I blame them for trying to make money, that's sort of the idea of business and whatnot, I just find the phrasing and such bothersome.

I mean, he calls "passive gamers" (never heard that phrase, I'm going to assume he means casual) pathetic. That had better be a mistranslation. Because I can't get behind that sort of thing. Going back to the analogy of the jilted lover, it's like complaining about how much of a ***** they were and how much better you are than them. But Nintendo was the one who pursued them in the first place. They were simply short sighted about the potential for growth.

Also, I'm a hardcore gamer and you better make a game that entertains me. Otherwise I'll find a better game that entertains me. Once again, that better be an issue of translation or bad phrasing.

Give it to us straight. The casual market didn't really pan out for the long term and you realize you need to go back to what made you such a successful company in the first place, quality games that people enjoy. I can get behind that, even if I likely won't buy a Wii U.

 

[Vault101]

I can understand, in the sense that games can be more than pulp fun. They can say something. They can make the gamer question his or her values, or explore complex character. Just look at spec ops and SH2. The problem is that Nintendo has never made these kinds of games.

yeah I can't imagine them straying from the golden trio (or trifecta if you count metroid) Metroid is the closest theyve come to something a little more PG rated.....but Other M is still a bad taste in other peoples mouths

which makes me think it could be a disconnect bwtween western gamers and japanease games

 

[Madmonk12345]

Sorry to be the pedant here, but this isn't strictly speaking true. Nintendo has certainly been involved in the development of games that aren't just pulp fun and aren't out to say anything. See Mother 3, Majora's Mask, Link's Awakening even.

And yet Mother 3 came out almost 10 years ago (not even in America), Majora's Mask came out 14 years ago, and Link's Awakening came out 21 years ago. The point is that Nintendo stopped making games like that, not that they never did

Actually, in the post he wrote, he said "never". That's why I started my post with, "Sorry to be the pedant here".

The point I have is that they have the capability. There's little stopping Nintendo from looking back at those games and recapturing what it lost.

Silent Hill 2, one of the poster's examples, itself is older than Mother 3, being made back in 2001, and the studio that produced it certainly hasn't produced anything better. Spec Ops was the only game that Yager ever released of note so far, and while I heavily enjoyed it, I'm not sure that it's enough to trust them as an arthouse studio themselves, though I'd love to be surprised. Really, I'm not sure there's really anyone right now who could be the Studio Ghibli of gaming, who makes games like that on a regular basis. Maybe Ken Levine and whatever projects he develops?

 

[Vault101]

How is "going where the money is" something to be criticized for? It's what businesses do, and Nintendo's push for the casual market with the Wii made them mad dough while it lasted. The fact that Nintendo isn't stupid enough to stay on a sinking ship isn't something to be mad about.
.

I don't know...it seems to me that the WiiU was trying to hit the sweet "Wii" gold again....excpet now everyone went to Mobiles and Tabelts...hell didn't they have to hand out information sheets to explain to people the difference between the two?

Many words ere said but of course the words are meaningless market babble. Shifting from casual? who do they define as casual? I mean Popcap made wicked sums of money catering to casual gamers... as have many other game companies, who do they count as HArdcore? Is that judged by skill level , experience or the amount of hours per day spent playing?

My sister has only the vaugest understanding of Videogames....she wanted a Wii because Wii fit looked kinda fun, I was going to give her mine but her Boyfreidn got her one....she tried out Wii whatever for a bit...its been sitting in the cabinet gathering dust ever since, she was also really into farmville when it was big, she doesn't have time for even Angry birds thease days...she has a baby

her boyfreind owns an Xbox...he plays the same games we all play, he has a general idea of what he likes and what he wants but I doubt he goes to places like this....he goes to car forums

me, I own a gaming PC, I play the kinds of games we call "core" the big AAA ones or the occasional indie, shooters, violent gamrs, the RPG's in between, I don't play nearly enough to considermyself "hardcore" but I read up on games, I'm interested in whats going on int he industry and I know exactly what games I want to play

I'm not bagging my sister or anything but me and her are very different demographics, with her boyfreind somehwere in between... while I said I wasn't "harcore" (and neither is he) out buying habits will have more overlap with somone we might consider "hardcore" than hers ever will

its not so much the games you play but how you play them, how invested you are (in both interest and money of coarse)...I think thats the distinction


[quote/]Also callinge casual gamers passive and pathetic... gee.. that's a smart move. Kinda explains why you've been losing market share and dev support for the last couple console cycles.[/quote]
this seems liek a mistranslation to me..."apathetic" would be more fitting

 

[Fox12]

'okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.'

I'm all for this new mindset that Nintendo has, but isn't this kinda the ultimate point of video games? To be entertained? Anyway, here's hoping for the best for Nintendo

I can understand, in the sense that games can be more than pulp fun. They can say something. They can make the gamer question his or her values, or explore complex character. Just look at spec ops and SH2. The problem is that Nintendo has never made these kinds of games.

Sorry to be the pedant here, but this isn't strictly speaking true. Nintendo has certainly been involved in the development of games that aren't just pulp fun and aren't out to say anything. See Mother 3, Majora's Mask, Link's Awakening even.

While they may have some pulp fun elements, they all have something to say, explore complex characters, and can make the player rethink their morals and values. Heck, Mother 3 even uses it's pulp fun and comedy to hide foreshadowing and the depth of its setting, causing players to ignore critical details so the game can surprise the player with moral questions to ponder at the end.

Even in the examples given above, I can't think of a single Nintendo game that prioritized an element over being fun. Silent Hill 2 and Spec Ops were not "fun." They were amazing and thoughtful, but fun is not a word I would use to describe them. Even when Nintendo branches out, their priority is usually to make a fun game for the family. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and I admit my wording was poor since there are some really thoughtful Nintendo games out there, but I've never known Nintendo to prioritize a message or theme over enjoyable gameplay.

That said, suggesting that Nintendo only makes "pulp" games was in bad taste, and I apologize. They just don't make ultra serious games like SH2.

 

[Artaneius]

Too little too late Nintendo. Maybe you should of bowed to us hardcore gamers much earlier and not betrayed us for casuals. Should of made the GC a much better system... Metroid Prime and Melee exceptions and the Wii a competitive online gaming machine. Brawl shouldn't of removed Wavedashing and L-canceling. Should of met our demands a lot sooner. Loyalty is more important than your bottom line. Should of remembered that sooner.

 

[Saltyk]

How is "going where the money is" something to be criticized for? It's what businesses do, and Nintendo's push for the casual market with the Wii made them mad dough while it lasted. The fact that Nintendo isn't stupid enough to stay on a sinking ship isn't something to be mad about.
.

I don't know...it seems to me that the WiiU was trying to hit the sweet "Wii" gold again....excpet now everyone went to Mobiles and Tabelts...hell didn't they have to hand out information sheets to explain to people the difference between the two?

Would also help if they managed to advertise the Wii U as being a whole other console not related to the Wii. I've talked to people who thought it was a new controller for the Wii. Worse yet, when they asked me what the console looked like, I realized that I didn't even know. (I know now, but you could easily mistake it for a car radio)

That is a problem. A major one.

This folks is why naming is important.

 

[RJ 17]

Did they figure out that the "casual" gamer doesn't spend money on video games?

I'd say this pretty much sums everything up. Indeed the casual market is a relatively un-tapped demographic and you can't really blame Nintendo for trying to swoop in and lay claim to it. The only problem is that said market is relatively barren, as one of the key defining characteristics of casual gamers is that, by name, they have a casual approach to gaming. That is to say, it likely isn't their primary pass-time/hobby and as such they don't spend as much on games as "hardcore" gamers do.

Best of luck to you, Nintendo. I hope you actually take this new direction and stick with it. Nostalgia demands that I sincerely wish you make a strong comeback.

 

[Vault101]

Would also help if they managed to advertise the Wii U as being a whole other console not related to the Wii. I've talked to people who thought it was a new controller for the Wii. Worse yet, when they asked me what the console looked like, I realized that I didn't even know. .

Oh my god...

[i/]I don't know eather[/i]