Miyamoto Refocusing on Hardcore; Casual Gamers' Passive Attitude "Pathetic"

[Saltyk]

Would also help if they managed to advertise the Wii U as being a whole other console not related to the Wii. I've talked to people who thought it was a new controller for the Wii. Worse yet, when they asked me what the console looked like, I realized that I didn't even know. .

Oh my god...

[i/]I don't know eather[/i]

Well, I might be able to help with that.

Spoiler: Take a look

Seriously, doesn't it look like a simple CD player you install into your car? That's what springs to mind whenever I look at it.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

Why would anyone want to actively focus on the "hardcore" again? If there is one thing I've learned over my entire lifetime of gaming it's this: the hardcore are not loyal, grateful, or charitable. Why would you want to be tied down to an audience like that, especially when there's little room for them to grow? The NES, SNES, Game Boy, GBA, PS1, PS2, 360, PS3, DS, Wii, and 3DS did not succeed because of "core" gamers, we are not that numerous enough to do that. No, it's always been the broader audience that has brought in the money and if they truly have all moved on to mobile games, that's not good for console or handheld gaming, which includes EVERYBODY.

And I thought people would realize that by now; after decades you'd think they would have understood that gaming is going to outgrow the gamer culture if that makes any sense and that means new people are going to go in. Heck, Pong was first distributed to bars, not exactly the go-to spot when thinking of stereotypical gaming culture. You'd think gamers would be HAPPY about people understanding their love for the medium and getting into it. I am shocked by how many people are still SEETHING over Nintendo attempting to give the gaming population a much-needed booster shot, unaware that they STILL MADE EVERYTHING THEY MADE BEFORE. We still got Zelda, Mario, Fire Emblem, Metroid, Smash Bros., Donkey Kong, Pokemon, and Kirby it's just that they made a lot of other stuff that we had to share space with. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

Actually, in the post he wrote, he said "never". That's why I started my post with, "Sorry to be the pedant here".

The point I have is that they have the capability. There's little stopping Nintendo from looking back at those games and recapturing what it lost.

Silent Hill 2, one of the poster's examples, itself is older than Mother 3, being made back in 2001, and the studio that produced it certainly hasn't produced anything better. Spec Ops was the only game that Yager ever released of note so far, and while I heavily enjoyed it, I'm not sure that it's enough to trust them as an arthouse studio themselves, though I'd love to be surprised. Really, I'm not sure there's really anyone right now who could be the Studio Ghibli of gaming, who makes games like that on a regular basis. Maybe Ken Levine and whatever projects he develops?

Ah, my mistake. I frequently see people refer to these games to defend the games Nintendo makes now. I agree and its why I like the idea of Nintendo returning to more hardcore or even niche games. Video games don't really have arthouse studios. Even Nintendo's artsy games are few far between

 

[Vault101]

[
Seriously, doesn't it look like a simple CD player you install into your car? That's what springs to mind whenever I look at it.

ah..thanks

I did know but I could not remember off the top of my head....I don't mind it design

. I am shocked by how many people are still SEETHING over Nintendo attempting to give the gaming population a much-needed booster shot, unaware that they STILL MADE EVERYTHING THEY MADE BEFORE. We still got Zelda, Mario, Fire Emblem, Metroid, Smash Bros., Donkey Kong, Pokemon, and Kirby it's just that they made a lot of other stuff that we had to share space with. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

I don't think thats nessicayly a bad thing eather...but they have changed their appeal

back in the N64/SNES days they were reliable consoles that had a very solid line up of games aside from exclusives

the Wii however really didn't have much going for it...aside from exclusives...and this is probably nostalga talking but they aren't qutite...the appeal of something can't last forever

by the time the Wii had come around I had moved on, I didn't want Nintendo games anymore, I wanted something new, and I still don't want Nintendo games, and I think there are other people like that

Nindendo made a killing with their casual focus and I can't blame them for it....I was skeptical as to who the WiiU was for, because it has little appeal to people like me, and it seems the casual market doesn't want it eather, I'm terrible at prediciting buisness (colored too much by my own preferences) but it seems its not working out for them...I'm not sure the answer is to be like the other two...with all the issues there, I just don't know who the WiiU is for

 

[Vault101]

First of all, Nintendo was not appealing to a "hardcore" demographic before the Wii, and they did not stop appealing to their main fanbase during the Wii's lifetime. What exactly makes Super Mario Galaxy more casual than say... Mario 64, or any Mario Game? Before the Wii the 2 newest Nintendo IPs were Animal Crossing and Pikmin, neither I would catagorize as hardcore by most people's definition. The Wii also launched with Twilight Princess, one of the darker installments in the Zelda Franchise. The mere fact that the Wii had party games and tons of shovelware doesn't mean Nintendo was abandoning their base. They Still made a Smash game, (commissioned)2 Metroid games, made 2 Zelda's, and even revived the DK franchise.

I'm not saying Nintendo didn't skew more "kiddie" during the Wii period. But I think people greatly exaggerate the degree of it because they themselves were growing up and other companies were starting to make darker and more mature games to appeal to them, making Nintendo look younger by contrast.
.

I think the difference is when you look at the consoles "overall"

"overall" even the N64 had a variety of titles....RARE had a huge part in adding excellent titles to the mix, when you whittle down 3rd party games your left with Nintedo IP's...which is fine, except up untill the Wii they were bolstered by other types of games

you know...variety...spice of life and all that

 

[Madmonk12345]

'okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.'

I'm all for this new mindset that Nintendo has, but isn't this kinda the ultimate point of video games? To be entertained? Anyway, here's hoping for the best for Nintendo

I can understand, in the sense that games can be more than pulp fun. They can say something. They can make the gamer question his or her values, or explore complex character. Just look at spec ops and SH2. The problem is that Nintendo has never made these kinds of games.

Sorry to be the pedant here, but this isn't strictly speaking true. Nintendo has certainly been involved in the development of games that aren't just pulp fun and aren't out to say anything. See Mother 3, Majora's Mask, Link's Awakening even.

While they may have some pulp fun elements, they all have something to say, explore complex characters, and can make the player rethink their morals and values. Heck, Mother 3 even uses it's pulp fun and comedy to hide foreshadowing and the depth of its setting, causing players to ignore critical details so the game can surprise the player with moral questions to ponder at the end.

Even in the examples given above, I can't think of a single Nintendo game that prioritized an element over being fun. Silent Hill 2 and Spec Ops were not "fun." They were amazing and thoughtful, but fun is not a word I would use to describe them. Even when Nintendo branches out, their priority is usually to make a fun game for the family. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and I admit my wording was poor since there are some really thoughtful Nintendo games out there, but I've never known Nintendo to prioritize a message or theme over enjoyable gameplay.

That said, suggesting that Nintendo only makes "pulp" games was in bad taste, and I apologize. They just don't make ultra serious games like SH2.

Don't worry about it. In the past, I've debated people who believed that Ninty wasn't capable of producing thoughtful games or anything beyond cliches, and your comment brought shades of that to mind.

Though I could argue that Majora's mask to some extent puts narrative over fun, with a certain futility invoked by the side quests by the 3-day groundhogs day schedule, I definitely agree that fun mechanics are always put as first priority at Nintendo. There's been multiple interviews speaking to that effect.

Mechanics first development is almost always a good thing, and almost certainly happened with spec ops, but I sometimes think that Nintendo would be better off if it built a narrative around a dull mechanic instead of just throwing that mechanic out.

 

[beastro]

Amusing seeing this talk when Nintendo hasn't been hardcore in my experience since the NES days.

As fun as they were to play, it wasn't hard to beat the likes of Super Metroid, Link to the Past, Super Mario World as a kid as oppose to their predecessors, though in Metroids case it was more a battle against the controls than anything else.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

I do not think he knows what or who the hardcore gamer is..... make up with third party devs already so more games will be made for your console....

 

[Fox12]

Don't worry about it. In the past, I've debated people who believed that Ninty wasn't capable of producing thoughtful games or anything beyond cliches, and your comment brought shades of that to mind.

Though I could argue that Majora's mask to some extent puts narrative over fun, with a certain futility invoked by the side quests by the 3-day groundhogs day schedule, I definitely agree that fun mechanics are always put as first priority at Nintendo. There's been multiple interviews speaking to that effect.

Mechanics first development is almost always a good thing, and almost certainly happened with spec ops, but I sometimes think that Nintendo would be better off if it built a narrative around a dull mechanic instead of just throwing that mechanic out.

Majoras Mask reminded me a lot of Dark Souls, or rather vice versa, in that you have an interesting story told through the world. Probably one of my favorite titles. OoT and Fire Emblem also told quality narratives. I wasn't trying to say that Nintendo is somehow less artistic. Their art just tends to be more "pixar" and less "david lynch." Both are art, but you don't necessarily go to a David Lynch film expecting a fun relaxing time. Basically I agree with Miyamoto that games can be about more than entertainment, I just found it ironic since I've never known him to prioritize that in his own work.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

So is this guy particularly famous in the industry or something? I mean how much do the words of some unknown guy really matter? Let's be honest here, he's no Phil Fish.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

That headline is incredibly misleading. Nowhere does Miyamoto say anything about 'casuals', just gamers who expect the game to be driving the entertainment as opposed to gamers who use the game to create challenge for themselves.

i.e. the difference between a game truly letting you have some agency (like Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Fire Emblem, etc) and one where you wonder why you're even there (like Call of Duty, or Beyond: Two Souls). Funny thing is a lot of "core" games are doing that for the sake of "story" reasons.

 

[Xman490]

Piss off nintendo... no one believes you... youre going where the money is and aparantly you cant make any money anymore by booking on the casual market.

No need to make BS explanations why you come crawling back.

Is it bad to "go where the money is"? Is this explanation that we've accepted "BS"?

Entities (Miyamoto, Nintendo, whoever) make mistakes. They can admit their missteps or fail to learn from the past. They can desire to make a mutually beneficial future, or a dominant future, or an apathetic future for their decisions regarding others. Miyamoto is admitting his company's failed expectations. Now he wants Nintendo to improve, and probably wants it to improve our gaming experiences.

Here's to a prosperous future for the gaming industry.

 

[Mr.Mattress]

So is this guy particularly famous in the industry or something? I mean how much do the words of some unknown guy really matter? Let's be honest here, he's no Phil Fish.

Oh no, this guy isn't important at all. He simply made Donkey Kong, Super Mario Bros, Legend Of Zelda, Star Fox, the Yoshi Series, Pikmin, the Wii Series, and helped design every Nintendo Home console in one way or another (Such as the N64 and Wii Controllers). (If this is Sarcasm, I'm sorry for not picking it up)

OT: I will admit, it is a bit hypocritical for Miyamoto to say this, especially since he helped make the Wii and the Wii Series. However, I view this more as a positive thing; the WiiU has definitely been much better then the Wii (to me) when it came to usage and gameplay, and it seems like the WiiU is going to just get better and better.

Hopefully Nintendo will continue back to the path of "Fun Games for Gamers" and not the path of "Fun Games for Casuals".

 

[Dragonbums]

Oh please... first its all "Hardcore isnt our market anymore, casuals is where its at" with the Wii... and when said casuals leave you for mobile devices you suddenly act like "damn them casuals! They arent real gamers anyways! Lets focus on the hardcore crowd again!"

Piss off nintendo... no one believes you... youre going where the money is and aparantly you cant make any money anymore by booking on the casual market.

No need to make BS explanations why you come crawling back.

It's not like Nintendo ever changed their philosophy in game design anyway. The games they made now has been the same games they made since they first started for the most part. This whole mentality between hardcore and "casuals" started because of the Wii anyway. Then again- Nintendo always changed up their gaming peripherals. Only this time around "hrdc0r3" gamers felt "burned" by the Wii U like garlic to a vampire and proclaimed that Nintendo ditched "tru gamers" for the casuals. Even though most of the people making shovel ware crap were companies like Chipotle.

They've booked the casual market quite well. If 3DS sales are anything to go by. And besides, it's not like any attempts to appeal to the "hrdc0r3" gaming populace worked anyway. Not since the Gamecube era.

 

[Dragonbums]

'okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.'

I'm all for this new mindset that Nintendo has, but isn't this kinda the ultimate point of video games? To be entertained?

Oh sure. However it doesn't do us any favors at all. Especially if we are trying to push the medium into being a widely accepted art form.

Mindless product meant to "entertain" and nothing more tends to not fall into that category.

 

[Dragonbums]

So is this guy particularly famous in the industry or something? I mean how much do the words of some unknown guy really matter? Let's be honest here, he's no Phil Fish.

Sorry dude. Miyamoto is a whole lot bigger than Phil Fish.

Phil Fish made one game that had a cool mechanic, nice art direction, and bugs up the ass.

Miyamto practically defined how gaming was and would grow out of (in terms of platformers) in the early days of the revival of videogames.


He also isn't an assbaby like Phil Fish.

Whenever Miyamoto says anything it's more than likely a huge deal.

 

[Sateru]

-[/snip]

Blah... I hate how alienating it sounds to call casuals "pathetic". Everyone has their own opinion of what it means to be hardcore, and what it means to be casual. There's always room for both in the table, and I'd wish that gaming companies would realize this. Casual gamers are the sort of gamers that are satisfied with games that don't require complicated thinking, or feeling that they need to fixate on the game in question in order to truly appreciate it.

Pokemon is a perfect example of a game that caters to both casual and hardcore gamers. One side can appreciate aesthetics, getting into the atmospheric qualities of a game rather than the technical bits, and simply enjoy it as if it's an alternate world of our own. Immersion, you know what I mean? At the same time, hardcore gamers can appreciate the technical aspects of the game, EV training, IV training, and so on.

It's not saying that there's not hardcore gamers that do have casual tendencies, and the reverse is true about casuals with hardcore tendencies. It's a general term that can have many applications to it depending on how you view it. I really wish that he would understand that, and that it's not bad to be a casual gamer. :T It's not bad to be a hardcore on either, both have their positives in them, and it's always nice to understand that gamers come in all types.

I'm probably speaking in circles, but that's what I believe.

 

[thanatos388]

"Come on Nintendo, stop trying to sell to casuals, we will give you our money if you made hardcore games again. Stop with the shovelware can you do anything right?"

Nintendo:"We have decided to focus on the hardcore market again because we no longer see the need to try and appeal to casual gamers."

"Oh, puh-leaze, you're just saying that cause you want my money. Can you do anything right?"

This seems to be the general reaction people have had with Nintendo. Piss gamers off once....and your fucked for life it seems.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Why would anyone want to actively focus on the "hardcore" again? If there is one thing I've learned over my entire lifetime of gaming it's this: the hardcore are not loyal, grateful, or charitable. Why would you want to be tied down to an audience like that, especially when there's little room for them to grow? The NES, SNES, Game Boy, GBA, PS1, PS2, 360, PS3, DS, Wii, and 3DS did not succeed because of "core" gamers, we are not that numerous enough to do that. No, it's always been the broader audience that has brought in the money and if they truly have all moved on to mobile games, that's not good for console or handheld gaming, which includes EVERYBODY.

And I thought people would realize that by now; after decades you'd think they would have understood that gaming is going to outgrow the gamer culture if that makes any sense and that means new people are going to go in. Heck, Pong was first distributed to bars, not exactly the go-to spot when thinking of stereotypical gaming culture. You'd think gamers would be HAPPY about people understanding their love for the medium and getting into it. I am shocked by how many people are still SEETHING over Nintendo attempting to give the gaming population a much-needed booster shot, unaware that they STILL MADE EVERYTHING THEY MADE BEFORE. We still got Zelda, Mario, Fire Emblem, Metroid, Smash Bros., Donkey Kong, Pokemon, and Kirby it's just that they made a lot of other stuff that we had to share space with. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Well from a financial perspective the casual market is large, but also undevoted. This means that no, they won't bu the new Mario game just because it's the new Mario game, and won't buy dedicated gaming hardware to do what their tablet does with games that are cheaper, if not free. The wii was a noble effort to say every casual is just a more hardcore gamer that just needs exposure, but sadly that theory fell flat. You need a lot of people that only buy the $3 hot app game to match someone like me, something like $1500 spent this year and it's only August.

But then again, his tone makes me think it's also about values. He gave people an entry drug and showed them the rest of the world. Enjoy wii sports? Good, now how yould you like to go on a grand adventure in Hyrule? no, you want to stick with Wii sports. Okay, about a dark mission as an Armored bounty hunter? no again. More wii sports huh? We all know these people in various facets in life: they won't try a new restaurant, or a new book series. Moreover, they won't try a books that looks bigger and more difficult than they're used to. They won't ry cooking a new recipe that looks too complicated, or take on a new job they might fail at. Hardcore gamers, try new games and genres, and can follow up by trying to beat the game, master it, and then break it. His comment comes off like someone that would say "I never programed Zelda thinking someone would beat it without the sword, but people have and I'm damned impressed by that."

As I share the value, I can understand why someone might want to say that if you're the kind of person that won't try something new, or face a bit of difficulty, or otherwise don't want to leave your comfort zone, you aren't the type of people I want to program for.

 

[Michael Legault]

Oh please... first its all "Hardcore isnt our market anymore, casuals is where its at" with the Wii... and when said casuals leave you for mobile devices you suddenly act like "damn them casuals! They arent real gamers anyways! Lets focus on the hardcore crowd again!"

Piss off nintendo... no one believes you... youre going where the money is and aparantly you cant make any money anymore by booking on the casual market.

I bet you believed Sony when they said they had changed from the PS3 days.

Straw man much?

Where did i mentioned sony?

Back when the Wii came out nintendo made it very clear that their long time fanbase and hardcore gamers are "not their market" anymore and that they would focus on casual gaming because it was so new and fresh and could reach so many more people... like all those commercials where the whole family plays? Yeah thing is that these people switched to mobile devices and tablets... they arent buying nintendo consoles and games. So suddenly nintendo renounces the casual market saying that they are "pathetic people"

Truth is they noticed that the whole "casual gamer market" doesnt work for them anymore and now they come crawling back hoping that their long time fans from ye olden days will forgive them.

I think what he meant was people who only play one game or one style of game, like people who bought wiis just to play wii sports. Also I have a friend who has admits he's not a gamer because the only game he buys and plays were CoD but he has now switched to battlefield. Perhaps he chose some strong words, but he has always had a tough reputation from dev teams, often completely scrapping and restarting development of projects. On the other side of that he would calmly show them what he wanted. I remember a dev interview that compared a visit to be like the emperor visiting the death star under construction.