Money for Mods: Valve Announces Paid Skyrim Mods
- Thread starter Steven Bogos
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Apparently roughly 6000 mods have been deleted from the Nexus by modders because scammers keep stealing their work and trying to sell it on Steam. So if this is true, good job, Valve.Adam Jensen said:
This is one of my concerns as well. I have 61 mods atm, if they all went paid (they won't, but for sake of argument) that could be at least another $60 for me to pay, but some of those mods are upwards of $5 or more. I know people with well over a hundred mods, hell one guy has two hundred (for some reason) this would be crippling. Of course the extra hilarity is the modders get bugger all for the sales, honestly they should have gone with Patreon or something like minecraft modders (who're apparently making bank).Frostiken said:
My other concern is mods that fix broken games eg Total War. Now the developer will get a share of the money from a mod that fixes a game that the developers released as a buggy mess.SadisticFire said:
Not sure why there's 2 threads on this topic, But I'll post what I said on the other thread here.
VincentX3 said:
So yea, remember that mobile shit that we all hate? Ad's that pop up which just annoying as fuck?
That's apparently now a thing in Skyrim, made by modders this time because money.
And this is just the first game, the first week and there's already POP-UPS IN SKYRIM.
The people that are defending this kind of shit are just fucking retarded, no sweet way of saying it.
Yes, I do support DONATING too modders for their work, so they get 90-100% of the money I send (Since Paypal and other services usually charge 10%)
But this? Between the massive 75% cut and bullshit like this already happening during the first week?
Yea fuck this.
If Valve had instead implemented a tip jar system or some sort of Patreon-like donation system for modders (with the creators getting a more reasonable cut), would the backlash have been as great? Heck, there probably wouldn't have been any backlash at all. Of course Valve and Bethesda had to go with the method that lined their pockets with as much cash as possible.
I feel the main issue here is the locking of mods behind paywalls and the hamfisted approach Valve took, rather than the fact that modders are attempting to receive monetary compensation at all. Not to mention that content theft isn't all that well regulated with mods from Nexus being taken by others to sell on the Workshop. This is probably one of the dumbest things Valve has done in a while.
I feel the main issue here is the locking of mods behind paywalls and the hamfisted approach Valve took, rather than the fact that modders are attempting to receive monetary compensation at all. Not to mention that content theft isn't all that well regulated with mods from Nexus being taken by others to sell on the Workshop. This is probably one of the dumbest things Valve has done in a while.
My random opinion copied from the other thread (TLDR it's anti-panic, pro-commerce):
I am a Free Culture/copyright reform advocate, I actually think that ALL art should be funded through other means than paywalls, and even *I* think people are being hypocritical here.
Would it be nice if creative workers would rely more on donations, pay-what-you-want models, and other external revenues instead of internet data censorship? YES.
But as long as this is NOT the case, and the legal framework exists for them to make payment obligatory for our data sharing, we might as well be consistent about it and let modders be a part of that too, as much as devs, and other artists are.
If you are upset that they are only getting a small cut (just like many other creators do), or that they are going to overprice things, you are doing nothing but bringing up the good old piracy apologist arguments, except here you hope that you can just convince the creators not asking for any money at all, instead of "bravely" protesting it with your legal disobedience. "BWAAH, publishers are being dicks to creators, so we should get all their content for free instead!!!"
And the fear that modders' property will now be STOLEN, is the most ridiculous mid-sentence switch between ideologies. Right until now, mods were not property at all, just fluff between the cracks of the system. If that's what you want to get back to, then YOU want to take away modders' "property". You can either admit that, and at least consistently challenge ALL intellectual property claims, games and movies and inventions too, or you can shrug and say that the possibility of theft is an inevitable side effect of starting to consider things property in the first place.
But you can't have it both ways, and protest the idea of mods being treated like property BECAUSE it raises the option for others to steal them. That would be exactly like justifing your piracy by saying that you do it because copyright is a terrible system that lets artists be robbed though piracy, so it needs to be challenged.
I am a Free Culture/copyright reform advocate, I actually think that ALL art should be funded through other means than paywalls, and even *I* think people are being hypocritical here.
Would it be nice if creative workers would rely more on donations, pay-what-you-want models, and other external revenues instead of internet data censorship? YES.
But as long as this is NOT the case, and the legal framework exists for them to make payment obligatory for our data sharing, we might as well be consistent about it and let modders be a part of that too, as much as devs, and other artists are.
If you are upset that they are only getting a small cut (just like many other creators do), or that they are going to overprice things, you are doing nothing but bringing up the good old piracy apologist arguments, except here you hope that you can just convince the creators not asking for any money at all, instead of "bravely" protesting it with your legal disobedience. "BWAAH, publishers are being dicks to creators, so we should get all their content for free instead!!!"
And the fear that modders' property will now be STOLEN, is the most ridiculous mid-sentence switch between ideologies. Right until now, mods were not property at all, just fluff between the cracks of the system. If that's what you want to get back to, then YOU want to take away modders' "property". You can either admit that, and at least consistently challenge ALL intellectual property claims, games and movies and inventions too, or you can shrug and say that the possibility of theft is an inevitable side effect of starting to consider things property in the first place.
But you can't have it both ways, and protest the idea of mods being treated like property BECAUSE it raises the option for others to steal them. That would be exactly like justifing your piracy by saying that you do it because copyright is a terrible system that lets artists be robbed though piracy, so it needs to be challenged.
There is a world of difference between having legitimate concerns about a system and advocating piracy, and it is counterproductive to write off everyone with objections as pirates.Alterego-X said:
I'm perfectly happy to pay people for their work, but I still think this deal is a disservice to content creators. Not only is it rewarding companies that have little-to-nothing to do with the content I'm paying for, but its exploiting the fact that modders don't generally know their rights and, until recently, haven't had many convenient ways to collect money for their work. If I want to buy a mod, I want the people that made it getting the majority of the money, but that doesn't mean I demand it be free in perpetuity, just that I want the compensation to be fair.
Mods are property, just like any other software, and the creators are protected by the same content creation laws. Mods have been free because, for a long time, they were hobby projects and portfolio pieces, fan works not completely dissimilar to fan fiction, and there was limited infrastructure for collecting money for them. That doesn't mean the creators forfeited their rights to them, nor that anybody has a right to have them for free without the creator's consent. When a mod is free, it's the creator giving a gift. It can't be stolen because it was freely given, but it would still be illegal to claim to have created it if you weren't the creator. I can download a copy of "How to Think like a Computer Scientist: Learning with Python" for free, but I can't claim to have made it and start posting it myself.
Just popping in to link to an interview with an actual modder within the industry, Dean Hall.
He offered his thoughts on the matter - http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2015/04/24/dayz-creator-weighs-in-on-paid-skyrim-mods-your-turn-rockstar/
Take of it what you will.
He offered his thoughts on the matter - http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2015/04/24/dayz-creator-weighs-in-on-paid-skyrim-mods-your-turn-rockstar/
Take of it what you will.
A lot of people seem to believe in the free market fixing it. Those people obviously don't understand that the free market doesn't work in a large scale. It worked back in the, really really old days when you needed a huge chunk of the potential market to support you to see a profit. Needing like 50% of your potential market to work... yeah, good luck getting them on board.
But now? There are close to 4 times as many people on earth as there were 100 years ago. Even with just 10% of the market supporting this, it will be profitable and it could fuck shit up. And there are ALWAYS those kind of people. Look at the freaking smartphone games. They use some of the most cancerous practices, yet they work. Why? Because a single wale is enough to even out the thousands of people not giving a shit about the game. 10% of Steam's user base is huge enough to support this idea. They have enough money to say "WE LOVE THIS!". And once more and more developer start doing it and once they start adding DRM that also checks if you downloaded the mods legally (and it will fucking happen. Don't tell me "slippery slope". There is no slippery slope fallacy here. If it's bad and makes money, it will happen. Bad DLC, always online, day one DLC, on disk DLC, no refunds, no support, bugged games, paid online... it happens all the time. If you still believe in the industry having any amount of integrity, you might as well believe in Santa Clause and the Grinch.)... where was I? Oh yeah, once they start adding DRM for mods, and more and more devs start doing it, a bigger chunk of the modding community will move one slowly to this huge pile of shit.
In short, the 10% of the market just killed the modding community. Good thing voting with our wallets worked, right guys? Free market doesn't work anymore. Open your eyes, look at all the dirty business practices, anti-consumer moves and shit that's going on around you. The free market is DEAD.
But now? There are close to 4 times as many people on earth as there were 100 years ago. Even with just 10% of the market supporting this, it will be profitable and it could fuck shit up. And there are ALWAYS those kind of people. Look at the freaking smartphone games. They use some of the most cancerous practices, yet they work. Why? Because a single wale is enough to even out the thousands of people not giving a shit about the game. 10% of Steam's user base is huge enough to support this idea. They have enough money to say "WE LOVE THIS!". And once more and more developer start doing it and once they start adding DRM that also checks if you downloaded the mods legally (and it will fucking happen. Don't tell me "slippery slope". There is no slippery slope fallacy here. If it's bad and makes money, it will happen. Bad DLC, always online, day one DLC, on disk DLC, no refunds, no support, bugged games, paid online... it happens all the time. If you still believe in the industry having any amount of integrity, you might as well believe in Santa Clause and the Grinch.)... where was I? Oh yeah, once they start adding DRM for mods, and more and more devs start doing it, a bigger chunk of the modding community will move one slowly to this huge pile of shit.
In short, the 10% of the market just killed the modding community. Good thing voting with our wallets worked, right guys? Free market doesn't work anymore. Open your eyes, look at all the dirty business practices, anti-consumer moves and shit that's going on around you. The free market is DEAD.
It has been said elsewhere, but the main danger about all this is in regards to the next games. So many games that get modded have a research phase where everyone is mining the game for information and sharing it with each other.
I think monetization is going to take all the incentive from sharing information and building up a community that is dynamic and cooperative. Instead of interchangeable mod teams we are going to have modding companies, fiercely competitive with research secrets.
Money is going to spoil the collegial atmosphere of the modding community.
Especially when you consider how many mods have relied on shared knowledge. Many mods are based on other mods, so what's next? Royalties? Copyrighted mods? Lawsuits?
I'd really ask modders to consider crowdfunding or donations instead of this divisive mess. The modding scene has always been a collective effort.
I think monetization is going to take all the incentive from sharing information and building up a community that is dynamic and cooperative. Instead of interchangeable mod teams we are going to have modding companies, fiercely competitive with research secrets.
Money is going to spoil the collegial atmosphere of the modding community.
Especially when you consider how many mods have relied on shared knowledge. Many mods are based on other mods, so what's next? Royalties? Copyrighted mods? Lawsuits?
I'd really ask modders to consider crowdfunding or donations instead of this divisive mess. The modding scene has always been a collective effort.
others have stated pretty much all of this but, there is no way i would pay enough to get the mods i currently have, not to mention all the not so good mods that i dont use after finding out i dont like them, and then the inter-mod conflicts, and then the interdependencies of the mods, and then.....well the point is paying upfront for mods is not something i will do.
I'm someone who makes items for Left 4 Dead 2 and Insurgency's workshop, and Killing Floor 2 in the future (you can look me up, my Steam name is the same as is here), and I find this whole thing a bit troubling. I've had people who follow my work and normally enjoy what I do, but if I were to start suddenly putting a paywall between them and my work I'd only be alienating my own audience! And the fact that they insist that purchasing a mod is at the risk of the user getting a faulty 'product' with such a little window for refund is not okay. It should not be the responsibility of a user to hope they get a working product, it should be MY responsibility to make sure I get a product working to proper order lest people start complaining and demanding refunds. That's how capitalism works!
A paywall should not have been the way to approach this, I'd have settled with a donation system instead. I've had some people satisfied with my work enough that they've asked me if there was a paypal account they could donate to (I do not have such a thing), and the idea of getting a few bucks from satisfied users via Steam sounds like a more beneficial and less harmful scenario for the community and myself.
A paywall should not have been the way to approach this, I'd have settled with a donation system instead. I've had some people satisfied with my work enough that they've asked me if there was a paypal account they could donate to (I do not have such a thing), and the idea of getting a few bucks from satisfied users via Steam sounds like a more beneficial and less harmful scenario for the community and myself.
Gabe Newell said on reddit today [https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/cqopm8l?context=3] that they're adding $0 as a possible mandatory minimum. Valve isn't taking 75%; Valve's taking 30%, which is the same as their cut on every game sold through Steam and a lot lower than retail stores take. And distribution/hosting isn't 0% of the work. Bethesda's taking 45%, which is unbelievable; Bethesda already got the money from the game sale, and I cannot think of a good reason they deserve a cut. But Bethesda, not Valve, decided on that 45%.shirkbot said:
I mean, they're not quite "putting up a paywall." Mod creators can and should continue providing the mods for free through Steam workshop. They're letting mod creators, if those mod creators want, charge for their work. A paywall is more of a "pay this to access any content."Lt. Rocky said:
Thanks for the heads up. At least it sounds like they're not just going to bury their heads in the sand, especially since they're adding a proper pay-what-you-want option, but that pay distribution is still broken. I knew Valve wasn't taking all of the 75%, and I'm okay with them taking something to cover operating costs since it is their store, but leaving only 25% for the modders is a bad deal. I still have concerns about how they're going about all of this, they knew this would cause a kerfuffle and did it anyway, but we'll see how it plays out. I still intend to write them a proper letter once some of the dust settles to cover any lingering concerns.inidu said:
This whole shit-storm is making me really depressed. I just hope I'm not watching the death of modding.
Like many others here I have no problem with paying modders for their work - but this is just so badly thought out, rife with moral and legal problems and way too greedy.
I'm a very sad panda right now.
Like many others here I have no problem with paying modders for their work - but this is just so badly thought out, rife with moral and legal problems and way too greedy.
I'm a very sad panda right now.
I see some the basic principles of what they want to do; to create additional incentives and draw out some really well crafted and wonderful mods.
Unfortunately I don't see that really happening. What it has certainly done from the get-go is cost VALVe a whole lot of short term faith and, as people have pointed out, perhaps for some good reasons. I've downloaded quite a lot of mods for Skyrim in the past and if I was asked to pay for them I wouldn't; not before I had the experience and certainly not after in retrospect.
Mods are buggy. Mods upon Mods are bugs upon bugs. There's a very good chance you'll start to put some money down and quickly discover you can't even play the game anymore because abc is not compatible with xyz.
Mods are prone to infringing on other creators work. There's a lot that mess with animations, with the skeletons below, or with the body types. These initial works are often built upon by others and where does the credit start and finish?
When people are spending real money they deserve to have protection. They deserve to have a reasonable expectation that what they pay for works, and will continue to work into the future; mods are particularly at risk where an update may break them and they require patching, let alone the aforementioned mods upon mods problem which is a very real thing. I don't see any guarantee that a mod will receive ongoing support to ensure it remains usable.
Perhaps over the long run we'll see some real quality shine through, as players rate products accordingly and the trash is filtered to reveal a few gems. I know I would be happy to pay for new shinies, but I will not wade through the crap that Steam is going to serve to find it.
Unfortunately I don't see that really happening. What it has certainly done from the get-go is cost VALVe a whole lot of short term faith and, as people have pointed out, perhaps for some good reasons. I've downloaded quite a lot of mods for Skyrim in the past and if I was asked to pay for them I wouldn't; not before I had the experience and certainly not after in retrospect.
Mods are buggy. Mods upon Mods are bugs upon bugs. There's a very good chance you'll start to put some money down and quickly discover you can't even play the game anymore because abc is not compatible with xyz.
Mods are prone to infringing on other creators work. There's a lot that mess with animations, with the skeletons below, or with the body types. These initial works are often built upon by others and where does the credit start and finish?
When people are spending real money they deserve to have protection. They deserve to have a reasonable expectation that what they pay for works, and will continue to work into the future; mods are particularly at risk where an update may break them and they require patching, let alone the aforementioned mods upon mods problem which is a very real thing. I don't see any guarantee that a mod will receive ongoing support to ensure it remains usable.
Perhaps over the long run we'll see some real quality shine through, as players rate products accordingly and the trash is filtered to reveal a few gems. I know I would be happy to pay for new shinies, but I will not wade through the crap that Steam is going to serve to find it.
That's kind of like what gamespy said when valve ditched won and used their own server software, before long people realise running two (resource hog grrr) programmes at once is a pain and eventually valve will fill the gaps with their software and gamespy just dried up With no need of patch hosting and server browsers.IamLEAM1983 said: