Morrowind 2011 Mod Collection Pulled After Complaints

[Maze1125]

But if I were to make one of my stories publicly available for free, and then someone put it into a compilation, and my name was put on the story, guess what? I have no right to get butt-hurt over it. I put it out there and said "Do whatever the hell you want as long as you give me credit", and they fulfilled that idea. I may not like the company my story is keeping in the compilation, but it's my fault for making it public, thus why I don't do freebie stories publicly.

Well, obviously you don't know what you're talking about, because you absolutely do have the legal right to get "butt-hurt" about someone doing that without your permission.

Of course, if you explicitly say on the story that "You can do whatever you want with this, you don't need to ask, just give credit." then you would have forfeited that right, but I'm guessing these modders didn't do that.

Maybe you personally wouldn't choose to get "butt-hurt" over it, but they did choose to.

What do we lose?

The answer to that is "Pretty much nothing" as the compilation is still out there, it just a bit harder to find. So we gained a minor lesson and lost some minor level of convenience. Seems pretty much tit-for-tat to me.

 

[DocBalance]

Well, obviously you don't know what you're talking about, because you absolutely do have the legal right to get "butt-hurt" about someone doing that without your permission.

Of course, if you explicitly say on the story that "You can do whatever you want with this, you don't need to ask, just give credit." then you would have forfeited that right, but I'm guessing these modders didn't do that.

Maybe you personally wouldn't choose to get "butt-hurt" over it, but they did choose to.

No. No I don't. It falls under Fair Use, provided no money is changing hands. Besides of which, even that situation is giving the modders too much credit. It's more like me freaking out because someone used my Thundercats fanfiction(hypothetically speaking, I've never actually written fanfiction) in a handy bundle of Thundercats related fanfiction and gave me full credit for my work. See, there is no original product being moved here. These modders just used an existing property and expanded it. They just happened to do it well. However, since he isn't claiming credit for writing the mods, isn't making money, and isn't doing anything but placing them all conveniently in one package so you don't have to hunt around the net for three hours, then they have no legal defense, and no ethical defense on their side.

Let's take the post card example from earlier. What if you found out someone was using one of your postcards as part of a collage on their publicly available blog about traveling the world? Should they have to ask permission to slap the post card provided to them on a piece of cardboard? Hell no. That's ludicrous. This is no different, and anyone who has studied copyright law will tell you the same. That's even giving in to the absolutely baffling idea that copyrights even come in to play in this situation(they don't) or that copyright law is in of itself not an inherently flawed legal monstrosity that has been abused to death by greedy bastards who don't understand what "Fair Use" means.

 

[Mr. Socky]

Some asshole being an asshole deprived me of a Morrowind that doesn't look like ass. Yay.

So the Morrowind 2011 mod got taken down because all the modders whos mods were modded into the mod got mad?

That sucks, I don't even play Morrowind and that sucks

I can understand that people would be angry that their stuff was used illegally, but the mod looked fantastic. You'd think that they'd try to FIX the problem, not blow it to hell.

So, yeah. It sucks.

 

[Freyar]

Fair Use does not apply to ANY aspect here. These are not parody, criticisms, nor used for Education.

 

[Maze1125]

It falls under Fair Use, provided no money is changing hands.

No it doesn't. Fair use is just that fair use. It's taking a character of someone else, or one image. It is not copying their entire work, or their entire gallery.

I cannot take an entire short story someone wrote and stick it in a free book of short stories without their permission. I can take passages or examples or characters from that story provided I'm not trying to make a profit.

Taking a small part is fair use, copying the entirety is not.

Besides of which, even that situation is giving the modders too much credit. It's more like me freaking out because someone used my Thundercats fanfiction(hypothetically speaking, I've never actually written fanfiction) in a handy bundle of Thundercats related fanfiction and gave me full credit for my work. See, there is no original product being moved here. These modders just used an existing property and expanded it. They just happened to do it well. However, since he isn't claiming credit for writing the mods, isn't making money, and isn't doing anything but placing them all conveniently in one package so you don't have to hunt around the net for three hours, then they have no legal defense, and no ethical defense on their side.

Nice twist using fanfiction, which everyone thinks of as not worthy of any respect at all.
Mods are not like fanfiction, fanfiction can be done by anyone, mods require actual coding talent.

A far more accurate analogy would be one where someone had their own art gallery of paintings they'd done of Lord of the Rings characters and someone copied all those paintings and put them together in one big art gallery of load of different people's paintings of Lord of the Rings characters without even asking once.

It doesn't matter in the slightest if both galleries are free, that is not fair use.

and anyone who has studied copyright law will tell you the same.

Would this person have studied the copyright laws of every country in the world?
Because this is not an issue of any one country. These mods were made by people from all over the world and the compilation was given to anyone in the world.

 

[bushwhacker2k]

GRR! How dare you make a very impressive graphical upgrade to a game that's 9 years old without trying to steal credit or make money off of it! We're gonna sue your arse! >:O

---

I don't even wanna debate this crap, as long as he isn't trying to steal credit or make money off of it then I wish people would just back off...

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

I'd take the second part a little further and more cynically, and suggest, "What he did wasn't illegal because it didn't affect me, and only benefited me, and how dare someone who was wronged make life the slightest bit inconvenient for me, no matter the ethics involved." ...that may have been too cynical of me, however.

I wasn't trying to be sensical, I was trying to save everyone the trouble of creating another ten pages of the same posts.

Personally, I side a little more with the second group. There's very little functional difference between this and just providing links to all of the files that were combined in the pack along with the instructions and I don't think that ANYONE would have grounds to complain if he had done that despite the fact that the end result would be indentical to the result of just providing the pack. Moreover, as many have already mentioned, it's not an issue of credit, they just don't want it in the pack at all. While that's not technically the same as saying "you're not allowed to link to the download for my mod without permission", it's functionally pretty similar, which is why this seems so silly to me. To me at least, the creators complaining are mostly just being indignant because it makes them and their work seem more important (which is nothing new in mod distribution arguments).

To be fair, I think he probably should have asked permission first, but even having ignored that step, I think the complaints remain pretty silly.

The fact is, there are a lot of guides like this already out there. So there's a very shitty element of this where he wasn't doing anything new or creative, just taking credit, and alerting the media.

I didn't know that he personally alerted the media. That's shitty behavior, though still not nearly to the extent he's being yelled at for. Nowhere am I intending to suggest that he didn't act like a dick (or, more likely given what I've seen, just fairly naive and a little dumb), I just think the retribution and the discussion has been completely out of proportion and that the original complaints were more about the mod creators getting to complain and lord power over someone else than about any substantive complaint they had.

And the guide did mention that there were a lot of other guides and that he was just trying to simplify the process, which, having installed the thing before it was taken down, he definitely did.

 

[DocBalance]

No it doesn't. Fair use is just that fair use. It's taking a character of someone else, or one image. It is not copying their entire work, or their entire gallery.

I cannot take an entire short story someone wrote and stick it in a free book of short stories without their permission. I can take passages or examples or characters from that story provided I'm not trying to make a profit.

Taking a small part is fair use, copying the entirety is not.

And what is unfair about this use, exactly? Is it the full-accreditation, the free publicity, or the appreciation of their work? We seem to have different definitions of "fair".

Nice twist using fanfiction, which everyone thinks of as not worthy of any respect at all.
Mods are not like fanfiction, fanfiction can be done by anyone, mods require actual coding talent.

A far more accurate analogy would be one where someone had their own art gallery of paintings they'd done of Lord of the Rings characters and someone copied all those paintings and put them together in one big art gallery of load of different people's paintings of Lord of the Rings characters without even asking once.

It doesn't matter in the slightest if both galleries are free, that is not fair use.

No, a more accurate analogy, if we want to use art, would be taking pictures from someone's deviantart account and giving them full-credit during a slide-show. I don't know if you are a modder personally, so I'm sorry if this offends you, but modding is not art. It requires actual coding in the way that fanfiction requires literacy. Yes, GOOD mods do require excellent coding skills, just as good fanfiction(which does exist) requires excellent writing skills. Yet they are both publicly available works that bring in no profit and have zero stipulations placed on their use.

Would this person have studied the copyright laws of every country in the world?
Because this is not an issue of any one country. These mods were made by people from all over the world and the compilation was given to anyone in the world.

Why yes, this hypothetical person is taking copyright law in other countries into account. Such as the fact that copyright enforcement in most countries outside of a scarce few European countries, the U.S., and occasionally the likes of Australia and Japan, is a laughable joke of an impotent system. Russia is responsible for most music Piracy, and China has many, many brand off-shoots that outright steal names, brands, and concepts and call them their own. South America has a booming electronics black-market. The list goes on, and on, and on. So before you start talking about copyright laws in other countries, get your facts clear and realize that most countries just don't give a shit.

This is of course ignoring the fact that THERE IS NO COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT BECAUSE MODS ARE NOT COPYRIGHTED. Sorry for the caps, but this really needs to be stressed. It's been ignored throughout your entire argument, and I'm really quite intrigued to see how you care to explain the legal grounds of copyright infringement without copyright.

 

[Zer_]

I'd take the second part a little further and more cynically, and suggest, "What he did wasn't illegal because it didn't affect me, and only benefited me, and how dare someone who was wronged make life the slightest bit inconvenient for me, no matter the ethics involved." ...that may have been too cynical of me, however.

I wasn't trying to be sensical, I was trying to save everyone the trouble of creating another ten pages of the same posts.

Personally, I side a little more with the second group. There's very little functional difference between this and just providing links to all of the files that were combined in the pack along with the instructions and I don't think that ANYONE would have grounds to complain if he had done that despite the fact that the end result would be indentical to the result of just providing the pack. Moreover, as many have already mentioned, it's not an issue of credit, they just don't want it in the pack at all. While that's not technically the same as saying "you're not allowed to link to the download for my mod without permission", it's functionally pretty similar, which is why this seems so silly to me. To me at least, the creators complaining are mostly just being indignant because it makes them and their work seem more important (which is nothing new in mod distribution arguments).

To be fair, I think he probably should have asked permission first, but even having ignored that step, I think the complaints remain pretty silly.

The fact is, there are a lot of guides like this already out there. So there's a very shitty element of this where he wasn't doing anything new or creative, just taking credit, and alerting the media.

I didn't know that he personally alerted the media. That's shitty behavior, though still not nearly to the extent he's being yelled at for. Nowhere am I intending to suggest that he didn't act like a dick (or, more likely given what I've seen, just fairly naive and a little dumb), I just think the retribution and the discussion has been completely out of proportion and that the original complaints were more about the mod creators getting to complain and lord power over someone else than about any substantive complaint they had.

And the guide did mention that there were a lot of other guides and that he was just trying to simplify the process, which, having installed the thing before it was taken down, he definitely did.

No he did not "alert the media." He posted it on Reddit, and the video on youtube, and it went from there. The media alerted the people about it. Stop spreading misinformation. (Not speaking to you personally, I'm just clarifying something).

Also, the name is mod COMPENDIUM. Which means collection of mods! So right away you should see that he didn't in fact make the whole thing, he just put it all together. If you bothered to read his original guide, he even said so in the closing lines of the guide.

There's no denying that the Elder Scrolls modding community is filled with egotistical douchebags. This coming from someone who has been with this community for years before getting tired of all the disgusting drama.

There was an incident at some point with a modder known as Alien Slof. Yeah, it was just a huge bout of drama. The simple fact that this kind of drama even occurs in a modding community disgusts me to no end. They don't have much to be proud of either, since the Bethesda modding community could pretty much be summarized as follows: Giant Penis Gatling Gun.

 

[Maze1125]

And what is unfair about this use, exactly? Is it the full-accreditation, the free publicity, or the appreciation of their work? We seem to have different definitions of "fair".

We quite possibly are. I wonder which definitions the courts would use?
You should publicly rehost the compilation, get taken to court by the modders, and find out.

Yes, GOOD mods do require excellent coding skills,

Isn't the whole point that these mods are good? That's why they were put in the compilation after all.

and have zero stipulations placed on their use.

That's rubbish. These modders did not release them as "no stipulations" many of them may well have outright said "You can use my work provided you ask first." I've seen that stipulated over and over again on free things given away on the internet.

Why yes, this hypothetical person is taking copyright law in other countries into account.

And how come you're so sure than anyone who has done such studies would agree with you?
Have you talked to every person with such qualifications? Are you one yourself?

So before you start talking about copyright laws in other countries, get your facts clear and realize that most countries just don't give a shit.

That's completely beside the point. Yes, of course most countries don't care. So what? There are a number of countries that do, and these mods were released in those countries too.

This is of course ignoring the fact that THERE IS NO COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT BECAUSE MODS ARE NOT COPYRIGHTED. Sorry for the caps, but this really needs to be stressed. It's been ignored throughout your entire argument, and I'm really quite intrigued to see how you care to explain the legal grounds of copyright infringement without copyright.

Yes, you've said that, but you've given nothing to prove it, you've just stated it as fact and we're all meant to believe you because you said so.

These mods are pieces of work. They may expand on an existing piece of work, but they are still pieces of work in their own right. As such, until you cite sources that deny copyright to mods from all countries with copyright law, I am going to believe they are copyrighted just like any other work a person produces.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

Reality check? I already said I don't care who's right or wrong. And guess what? Modding with no permission from dev and releasing it for others to use is illegal but that doesn't stop people.

And when they get caught, and threatened with legal issues they stop. That's what occurred here. Yes, you need a reality check as to who is in the wrong, since you seem to beleive provided the end user gains the goods it doesn't matter whom produced it. It does.

Some asshole being an asshole deprived me of a Morrowind that doesn't look like ass. Yay.

That "asshole" likely made[/b one of the mods that stopped Morrowind look like ass... -_-

We don't care.

You have rolled a critical failure on internet diplomacy. NEVER take something free away from the internet and then say it's 'because we own it'.

PS: Mods are fair use/parody, it is not 'illegal' to copy them because they aren't on legal ground as IP to begin with, all rights belong to the manufacturers of the game. The guy really had no reason to take it down, he just did because unlike some people he's not a douche.

It's a decade old game. Qwaaaahhh somewhere else.

 

[D_987]

We don't care.

You have rolled a critical failure on internet diplomacy. NEVER take something free away from the internet and then say it's 'because we own it'.

Ok, first and foremost, I'm going to point out I know you're a well-known troll, so I'm going to be brief, because I really can't be bothered to argue the same point I've been repeating throughout this thread. I did not make the mod.. Just saying, since you know, you're addressing me as though I personally wrote the e-mail that caused all this argument. I'm just opinionated, and feel the majority opinion on this topic is incorrect.

PS: Mods are fair use/parody, it is not 'illegal' to copy them because they aren't on legal ground as IP to begin with, all rights belong to the manufacturers of the game. The guy really had no reason to take it down, he just did because unlike some people he's not a douche.

Yeah, claiming credit for other peoples work by putting your name all over the gaming press, the mod compilation website and not asking the people you're taking work from for permission before doing so isn't douche-bag behavior at all is it? -__-

Besides which, if you'd bothered to read a few pages before replying you'd know that they do have some legal authority on the matter. Not to mention, as aforementioned, the creator of said compilation was in the wrong.

It's a decade old game. Qwaaaahhh somewhere else.

Indeed, your post makes such a compelling argument I feel the need to stop repeating my point, /sarcasm.

 

[mlkjhgfds]

I'm not going to tread through 11 pages of wannabe internet legal experts analyses to check if there's a modder's point of view in there, so here's one.

Fact : Modders work first of all to improve a game they love and share that improvement with others. Not for money or fame, just to contribute to the modding scene, for fun, and maybe learn a bit of modelling/coding on the way.

Fact : unless you've been pretty deep into Morrowind mods for a while, it takes hours, nay, days to find, download, install (compatibility issues anyone?) such a set of mods. Mod compendiums make it possible for lazy people to enjoy those improvements. So why wouldn't modders be happy with that ? Here's where fame comes in - sometimes mods are recognized enough that their creators actually get job offers from videogame producing companies (among others, Ossian Studios recruited Neverwinter Nights modders). Either that or, you know, that infamous INTERNET REPUTATION thing. What are you all trying to do here anyway, writing thousands of posts ? Trying to make an internet name for yourself ? Most of you would make gleeful noises inside if someone mentions your nickname somewhere... ah, sorry, enough psychobabble. Thing is, by making that mod compendium, that guy there would be getting all the fame some of those modders think (not without reason) they deserve.

What if he'd asked for permission ? Sure, most of the modders would've agreed. (there ARE a lot of authorized mod compendiums out there, a few of them quite large too - mostly graphic improvements or item mods) But those who sent him letters threatening with legal action - those wouldn't have agreed. Those guys want people go to one of their mod release pages, look at their name, read the description they wrote, and download their mod. Not judging, mind, that's just the way it is.


Also - some, let's say, uneducated people here were stating mods are not art. Right. Because designing, creating new or improving old 3d models, painting textures, writing dialogues and scenari - not art. Nope. So you're one of those real grown-ups eh ? Feeling a bit alone now that Mr Ebert wisened up ?

 

[maturin]

You mean he didn't get permission? Dumbass.

Did he ever even go on an ES forum? The modding community doesn't truck with much.

 

[William Hagerman]

Gah, always hated this about modders. You make a mod for BETHESDA'S game in the intrest of improving the loving community's gameplay experience, and some guy puts it in a pack that combines the BEST Morrowind mods. This ease of distribution makes your mod more available and credit was given so he's not claiming your work. But they flip out.

 

[Nibblitman]

Despite the legal issues that I know are legit, I am deeply disappointed at the way that some of those modders reacted to the creation of this guide and compilation. It would seem to me to be an instant use of large force on something that didn't warrant it, at least not yet.(aka. fly and hatchet)

The most disappointing aspect of this being the removal of the instructions on how to get the mods to work together. I can understand the removal of the compilation(as much as I dislike it), but the removal of the recommended order and help to get the different mods working together seems very petty and shallow after forcing the removal of the compilation.

I would really like someone to answer, How does that part of his creation violate anything? He created a recommendation of the best order to put the mods in. I can't see how this violates anything.

Also several of you have mentioned guides and compilations that are working and available, I personally(and b the sound of things a good many other) have not be in the Morrowind mod community like you may have been. If you could direct us to these guides and compilations I think that would make a good many people quite happy.

 

[DocBalance]

We quite possibly are. I wonder which definitions the courts would use?
You should publicly rehost the compilation, get taken to court by the modders, and find out.

I gladly would, if I even began to think that the modders had the stones to try and pull something like that in court.

Isn't the whole point that these mods are good? That's why they were put in the compilation after all.

An excellent side-step, but you miss the point. There are good mods, just as there is good fanfiction, fanart, and fan remixes. Yet none of these gain the benefits or restrictions of copyright law.

That's rubbish. These modders did not release them as "no stipulations" many of them may well have outright said "You can use my work provided you ask first." I've seen that stipulated over and over again on free things given away on the internet.

Really now? I'd love to see some examples of that.

And how come you're so sure than anyone who has done such studies would agree with you?
Have you talked to every person with such qualifications? Are you one yourself?

It just so happens I am. I have studied copyright law extensively for many purposes that are neither here nor there, but I know my way around copyright law in the U.S. and abroad.

That's completely beside the point. Yes, of course most countries don't care. So what? There are a number of countries that do, and these mods were released in those countries too.

And what exactly are these countries doing? Even here in the U.S. where copyright law is a favorite buzzword of most CEOs, copyright lawsuits are generally impotent things that catch few and successfully prosecute fewer.

Yes, you've said that, but you've given nothing to prove it, you've just stated it as fact and we're all meant to believe you because you said so.

These mods are pieces of work. They may expand on an existing piece of work, but they are still pieces of work in their own right. As such, until you cite sources that deny copyright to mods from all countries with copyright law, I am going to believe they are copyrighted just like any other work a person produces.

I don't believe you understand how copyright law works. You see, you actually have to file copyrights of this sort, (source: http://www.ehow.com/how_6622423_copyright-mod.html), so the burden of proof lies on you to prove that each and every one of these modders filed the appropriate forms and obtained permission to copyright them. Until then, they are completely and utterly subject to the whims of the public, and I do believe the public is flipping them a rather large, prominent bird on this one.

 

[Nibblitman]

TheMaddestHatter, that link came out a bit funny you may want to edit it I know the page is real but that link isnt working right.

 

[squid5580]

Don't you see what is really going on here? This is just a bigger publicity stunt. The modders have got to know that there is no killing it once it is on the net. So what better way to get this into more computers than to try and kill it?