Movie, TV, Web Series, and Music Hot Take(s).

[Gordon_4]

The first and second problems are "Michael" and "Bay". The third problem being is that his movies are glorified PG-13 porn. One of the nicknames Bay's movies are that are not rated R. Also, lowest common denominator. Trying to be hip with the youth in the worst possible way. It's as if these movies are ashamed to be associated with a property that are about transforming toys.

To be about as fair as I’m willing to be, the focus on Sam came as I recall it from Spielberg. The whole ‘boy and his car’ being similar to Elliot and ET. But yes, following around Captain Lennox would have been at the very least a more on brand idea for the movie. Plus you can still have whacky family shenanigans because Ironhide went home with him and the man has a newborn child. That sort of comedy fucking writes itself.

 

[BrawlMan]

To be about as fair as I’m willing to be, the focus on Sam came as I recall it from Spielberg. The whole ‘boy and his car’ being similar to Elliot and ET.

And I would have preferred for Spielberg to take the director's chair on that idea. Not a bad idea in theory, but executed horribly because Michael Bay is the one making most of the decisions and executions of it. As seen in Bumblebee with a girl and her car, this idea can be done way better and less overly obnoxious.

But yes, following around Captain Lennox would have been at the very least a more on brand idea for the movie. Plus you can still have whacky family shenanigans because Ironhide went home with him and the man has a newborn child. That sort of comedy fucking writes itself.

Any of that would have been a better idea, than what we got in the final products.

 

[Breakdown]

Better Call Saul is really boring and pointless.

 

[Gordon_4]

Better Call Saul is really boring and pointless.

So was Breaking Bad, yet they hailed that fucker as the Second Coming of TV Jesus.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

So was Breaking Bad, yet they hailed that fucker as the Second Coming of TV Jesus.

Never watched the show, but I've also never heard anyone say anything bad about it. Given that you don't have a positive opinion on it and that's a rarity, could you describe what your problems with it are? I'd like to hear a different opinion on it.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Been seeing a lot of Avatar lately since it’s one of the kid’s latest obsessions. It gets a lot of crap but overall it’s still good. It’s biggest issues lie with pacing and getting bit fluffy with thematics here and there. Showing humans as the evil aggressor is never feel good stuff, but the difference here vs something similar like Dances With Wolves is the former is rooted in fantasy, which instantly makes it easier to dismiss.

With the first sequel seeing the light of day recently and getting an actual title, I’m curious where they’ll take it. Although having said that, I’m not sure how they’re going to make four more of these without it feeling…excessive.

 

[BrawlMan]

Showing humans as the evil aggressor is never feel good stuff, but the difference here vs something similar like Dances With Wolves is the former is rooted in fantasy, which instantly makes it easier to dismiss.

My problem with that is that too many Green Aesops from the late 80s/most of the 90s suffered so much from this. Especially on the Western and USA side of media. Seeing that movie in 2009 and praised for being "brave and revolutionary" in this regard I found off putting and less engaging to watch. Even when taking Dances with Wolves out of the equation, I already saw better in theaters at the age of 10 in September of 1999. Princess Mononoke does everything better than Avatar (2009), and it is semi-historical mixed with fantasy. I hate movies that talk down to their audience and act like they have something new or "profound" to say. What I love about Princess Mononoke is that the anime movie is not afraid to explore grey areas, and there are no true villains, outside of the off-screen Emperor you never see and barely mentioned, and Jigo, who works for said Emperor. Neither the humans, nor the forest/animals spirits and gods are made out to be charactericures and not broken down in to simple black and white.

Avatar has good action and great visuals, pioneering the CGI and 3D movement, but is all of the positives I can give it. What was special now, is mundane and standard fair. Especially when you take the Planet of the Apes 2010 movies in to account. High fidelity, 3D motion capture has become the norm, so nothing sticks out much, other than the Navi themselves. Who I dislike and don't find them all that sympathetic, nor endearing.

With the first sequel seeing the light of day recently and getting an actual title, I’m curious where they’ll take it. Although having said that, I’m not sure how they’re going to make four more of these without it feeling…excessive.

That's assuming Cameron will still be alive to complete them. I have no interests in any of the sequels. Way too late for that shit, and not enough patience in the world.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

My problem with that is that too many Green Aesops from the late 80s/most of the 90s suffered so much from this. Especially on the Western and USA side of media. Seeing that movie in 2009 and praised for being "brave and revolutionary" in this regard I found off putting and less engaging to watch. Even when taking Dances with Wolves out of the equation, I already saw better in theaters at the age of 10 in September of 1999. Princess Mononoke does everything better than Avatar (2009), and it is semi-historical mixed with fantasy. I hate movies that talk down to their audience and act like they have something new or "profound" to say. What love about Princess Mononoke is that the anime move is not afraid to explore grey areas and no true villains, outside of the off-screen Emperor you never see and barely mentioned, and Jigo, who works for said emperor. Neither the humans, nor the forest/animals spirits and gods are made out to be charactericures and not broken down in to simple black and white.

Avatar has good action and great visuals, pioneering the CG and 3D movement, but is all of the positives I can give it. What is special now is mundane and standard fair. Especially when you take the Planet of the Apes 2010 movies in to account. High fidelity, 3D motion capture has become the norm, so nothing sticks out much other than the Navi themselves. Who dislike and I don't find them all that sympathetic nor endearing.


That's assuming Cameron will still be alive to complete them. I have no interests in any of the sequels. Way too late for that shit, and not enough patience in the world.

Would you feel the same way if Avatar was less popular than Mononoke-hime? I never took Avatar as talking down to the audience, but some of how it presented the villains was a bit too on the nose and cringey. Probably trying to get the audience to hate them more, but subtlety would’ve worked better. However, it still also displayed grey areas of morality and loyalty, as a good amount of humans were portrayed as a part of the resistance to their underlying cause for being there.

Perhaps it’s seen as shallow, but the way it was presented dually reflected the shallowness also found too often in human nature.

 

[BrawlMan]

Would you feel the same way if Avatar was less popular than Mononoke-hime?

Yes. Like I said before, already seen better.

I never took Avatar as talking down to the audience, but some of how it presented the villains was a bit too on the nose and cringey. Probably trying to get the audience to hate them more, but subtlety would’ve worked better.

It does when it is that on the nose with little to no subtlety.

. However, it still also displayed grey areas of morality and loyalty, as a good amount of humans were portrayed as a part of the resistance to their underlying cause for being there.

Not as good as it would have been in the original script. Cameron intentionally neutered his own script for the sake of making the Navi the de-facto "good guys". So whatever grey areas we do get in the final product are so-so, and not enough to save it.

Perhaps it’s seen as shallow, but the way it was presented dually reflected the shallowness also found too often in human nature.

Yet, there are plenty of works that can swim beyond the shallowness, and dive deep in to the true depths of human nature.

 

[Gordon_4]

Yes. Like I said before, already seen better.

It does when it is that on the nose with little to no subtlety.

Not as good as it would have been in the original script. Cameron intentionally neutered his own script for the sake of making the Navi the de-facto "good guys". So whatever grey areas we do get in the final product are so-so, and not enough to save it.

Yet, there are plenty of works that can swim beyond the shallowness, and dive deep in to the true depths of human nature.

I've never understood why people get so fucking angry at Avatar, when if the roles were reversed, we'd be cheering the natives on. Its myopic and stupid.

 

[BrawlMan]

I've never understood why people get so fucking angry at Avatar, when if the roles were reversed, we'd be cheering the natives on. Its myopic and stupid.

I can't speak for everyone, but myself. I dislike Avatar (2009), because it is shit I've already seen before. Just not done all that better or worse in some cases in terms of storytelling and themes. I already mentioned the movie is a badly done Green Aesop, that does nothing, but add to the big pile. It's nearly 3 hours of my life wasted, and I never want to bother watch again, because there is plenty better that gets their points across in a shorter run time.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Would you feel the same way if Avatar was less popular than Mononoke-hime? I never took Avatar as talking down to the audience, but some of how it presented the villains was a bit too on the nose and cringey. Probably trying to get the audience to hate them more, but subtlety would’ve worked better. However, it still also displayed grey areas of morality and loyalty, as a good amount of humans were portrayed as a part of the resistance to their underlying cause for being there.

Perhaps it’s seen as shallow, but the way it was presented dually reflected the shallowness also found too often in human nature.

Other humans being against tearing down the Navi and their home doesn't introduce gray to the story though. The sides are no less black or white for having humans decide to be on the "good" side.

A much better story would be something like how Radiata Stories plays out (A PS2 game) in it there's a major plot divergence that leads you to either supporting the humans or the magical races and while the human leaders are in the wrong, the actual result of choosing to side with the magical races is the destruction of everyone in the world, both humans and fantasy races, while the human side leaves the human race alive, even if one of our main characters is dead and the other emotionally shattered. So you have a real moral quandary, one choice, to me, seems to clearly be the morally correct one, but it leads to the worst outcome, while the other is morally dark gray but has a far better outcome. That's a plot with shades of gray.

Back to Avatar, apparently there was meant to be additional context for the humans and why they do the things they do but they cut it for a "me want moneyz" plot. That's not gray, that's childishly black and white.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Other humans being against tearing down the Navi and their home doesn't introduce gray to the story though. The sides are no less black or white for having humans decide to be on the "good" side.

A much better story would be something like how Radiata Stories plays out (A PS2 game) in it there's a major plot divergence that leads you to either supporting the humans or the magical races and while the human leaders are in the wrong, the actual result of choosing to side with the magical races is the destruction of everyone in the world, both humans and fantasy races, while the human side leaves the human race alive, even if one of our main characters is dead and the other emotionally shattered. So you have a real moral quandary, one choice, to me, seems to clearly be the morally correct one, but it leads to the worst outcome, while the other is morally dark gray but has a far better outcome. That's a plot with shades of gray.

Apparently there was meant to be additional context for the humans and why they do the things they do but they cut it for a "me want moneyz" plot. That's not gray, that's childishly black and white.

Is it though? I mean, IRL there is no shortage examples of how that is the exact case and some people never fucking learn.

Yes. Like I said before, already seen better.

It does when it is that on the nose with little to no subtlety.

Not as good as it would have been in the original script. Cameron intentionally neutered his own script for the sake of making the Navi the de-facto "good guys". So whatever grey areas we do get in the final product are so-so, and not enough to save it.

Yet, there are plenty of works that can swim beyond the shallowness, and dive deep in to the true depths of human nature.

I’ve never read the original script but it’s ultimately a moot point by Cameron’s prevailing thought process. The final cut still didn’t make the Navi out to be squeaky clean and that’s visually and verbally clear early on. But the underlying point was calling out humanity’s greed and destructive pursuit of material wealth. There’s no point in being needlessly or excessively vague or ponderous about it.

 

[BrawlMan]

I’ve never read the original script but it’s ultimately a moot point by Cameron’s prevailing thought process.

Not when you destroy a great concept that actually makes you think, for spectacle to make you "feel good".

The final cut still didn’t make the Navi out to be squeaky clean and that’s visually and verbally clear early on.

Not by much. Which does not matter in the long run, because you clearly suppose to sympathize with their plight and root for them. The only reason they're not squeaky clean is due to bad writing on Cameron's part.

Live-Action Films / Unintentionally Unsympathetic - TV Tropes

Absolute Power: Walter Sullivan insists that Christy was not a Gold Digger and that he genuinely loved her, and her murder by President Richmond's staff is what drives the plot. However, consider her track record. She marries an octogenarian …

tvtropes.org

• Many viewers saw the Na'vi as arrogant, xenophobic hypocrites who weren't all that different from the human antagonists. For example, they hold themselves above humans because they always mate for life, but when Neytiri finds out Jake's true mission, she leaves him to die despite having mated with him.
• Furthermore, while we don't know who fired the first shot originally, the first time the audience sees Neytiri she's shown planning to shoot Jake with an arrow coated with a neurotoxin, simply for the crime of walking in their territory. In addition, the RDA machinery is covered in those same arrows, meaning that the Na'vi are just as guilty of attacking the humans and are actively doing so throughout the film.
• There is supposedly a Deleted Scene that would've revealed that the impetus for the current conflict, the destruction of Grace Augustine's school and the accidental death of Neytiri's unmentioned-in-the-film-proper sister therein, involved both species acting badly to various degrees, getting across some moral ambiguity not present in the final cut.
• Jake himself, the movie's main hero, spends months dicking around with the Na'vi and enjoying having legs again while feeding intel to Quaritch, instead of warning them about their imminent destruction. Supposedly they won't listen to him until he passes his manhood ritual, but when he finally does pass, does he tell them about the invasion that will be arriving to wipe out their home tomorrow? Nope, he goes and bones the Chief's daughter instead. How It Should Have Ended calls this out, claiming that the ending of the film could have been avoided if he just did his job in the first place and negotiated with them like he was supposed to.

There’s no point in being needlessly or excessively vague or ponderous about it.

Depends on how you do the vagueness and pondering. That said, I'll take some form of pondering, over empty spectacle pretending to be "smart and thought provoking".

 

[Gordon_4]

Is it though? I mean, IRL there is no shortage examples of how that is the exact case and some people never fucking learn.




I’ve never read the original script but it’s ultimately a moot point by Cameron’s prevailing thought process. The final cut still didn’t make the Navi out to be squeaky clean and that’s visually and verbally clear early on. But the underlying point was calling out humanity’s greed and destructive pursuit of material wealth. There’s no point in being needlessly or excessively vague or ponderous about it.

And none of this demanded nuance is ever a courtesy we extend to aliens that invade us.

 

[Dalisclock]

Other humans being against tearing down the Navi and their home doesn't introduce gray to the story though. The sides are no less black or white for having humans decide to be on the "good" side.

A much better story would be something like how Radiata Stories plays out (A PS2 game) in it there's a major plot divergence that leads you to either supporting the humans or the magical races and while the human leaders are in the wrong, the actual result of choosing to side with the magical races is the destruction of everyone in the world, both humans and fantasy races, while the human side leaves the human race alive, even if one of our main characters is dead and the other emotionally shattered. So you have a real moral quandary, one choice, to me, seems to clearly be the morally correct one, but it leads to the worst outcome, while the other is morally dark gray but has a far better outcome. That's a plot with shades of gray.

Back to Avatar, apparently there was meant to be additional context for the humans and why they do the things they do but they cut it for a "me want moneyz" plot. That's not gray, that's childishly black and white.

Yeah, I was kinda cheesed when the backstory reveals that the Earth is dying and the mineral they want so badly is starship fuel. But that would make the humans more empathetic or something.

Weirdly, this reminds me of one of my problems with Chrono Cross. So in the game, there's a lot of stuff about the humans oppressing the demi-humans and being bad for the natural environment of the islands the game takes place on. And you'd think this could create a lot of nuance...and to some extent it does, but OTOH, you have some horribly executed bits.

Notaly, at one point one of your main party members gets poisoned and the only cure is in a swamp, but you need to kill the hydra who lives there to get it. However, killing the hydra causes the swamp to die because it was a vital keystone of the ecosystem.Okay, this this introduces unintended consequences to your attempt to save your friend, even in a somewhat wierd way, because IIRC you have no way of knowing killing the hydra to get the poison cure will do that and the hydra is quite dangerous, even if it's not threatening anyone outside the swamp.It's not like you were given a choice to "Burn down Swamp to save friend" or "Let friend die from poison", you were given the choice "Kill monster to save friend" or "Find another way".

Where it gets egregious is later you're visiting a fairy village somewhere and a group of dwarves driving steampunk tanks drive in and begin an ethnic cleansing campaign against the fairies, because apparently killing the hydra and destroying the swamp destroyed their homes where they "lived in harmony" with nature so now they need to....kill the fairies to take their home. But it's the humans fault they have to do this. And the whole aesop kinda falls apart at this point because the game basically seems to think you're still the bad guy here, despite you AREN'T ENGAGING IN PURPOSEFUL GENOCIDE USING TANKS and said genocide completely undermines the "living in harmony with nature" thing as well as any sympathy you might have has for them until that point. There's not even a hint of hypocrisy here, at least as far as the game is concerned, even if any reasonable person would think the Dwarves are basically being assholes.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

And none of this demanded nuance is ever a courtesy we extend to aliens that invade us.

Would certainly make an interesting story to have an invading race of aliens be refuges escaping a far off empire or be starving "beggars" desperate for food.

Here's why people don't bring up the lack of nuance for Earth invasion stories compared to Earth invading stories. The former, at its worst, is asking the audience to "have fun with seeing people fighting an enemy without political repercussions", the other is asking the audience, "feel bad for this thing humans do even if you don't participate in it or know of any way to stop it."

One is asking you to turn your brain off and the other is lecturing you and more people will be agreeable to the former over the latter more often than not.

 

[Gordon_4]

Would certainly make an interesting story to have an invading race of aliens be refuges escaping a far off empire or be starving "beggars" desperate for food.

That movie exists, it’s called District 9: spoilers, the human race still comes across as a bunch of fucking assholes.

Here's why people don't bring up the lack of nuance for Earth invasion stories compared to Earth invading stories. The former, at its worst, is asking the audience to "have fun with seeing people fighting an enemy without political repercussions", the other is asking the audience, "feel bad for this thing humans do even if you don't participate in it or know of any way to stop it."

One is asking you to turn your brain off and the other is lecturing you and more people will be agreeable to the former over the latter more often than not.

I don’t feel lectured watching Avatar, and I’m quite happy to turn off my brain and enjoy the spectacle of the Dutch East India Company IN SPACE get the shit kicked out of them by the natives and few decent human beings on Pandora.

EDIT: Jesus this site is a fucking nightmare to use on mobile.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, I'm of the "everything about Avatar is just bad" camp, myself.

 

[Gordon_4]

Yeah, I'm of the "everything about Avatar is just bad" camp, myself.

You know what? I can respect this position. I don’t share it, but I can respect it.