Mr Plinkett Last Jedi Review

Hawki

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crimson5pheonix said:
Hey, if that destroyer was there when the rest of the fleet came in, they would have been fucked.
Source?
 

Hawki

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crimson5pheonix said:
Because they were nearly destroyed without the destroyer there?
Um, what are you on about?

The fact that it's a dreadnought aside, the ships aren't nearly destroyed because of the firepower of the First Order fleet. The Supremacy and its escorts keep lobbing shots, but they do jack, partly because of the distance, partly because of the Raddus's shields. They only start getting destroyed when their ploy at Crait is revealed, and in that case it's pinpoint shots against transports, not capital ship, BDO combat like a dreadnought is known for.

Also, the whole "Poe is secretly the hero" thing kinda falls flat when Poe himself never makes the case that if he hadn't destroyed the dreadnaught, they WOULD be destroyed.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Hawki said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Because they were nearly destroyed without the destroyer there?
Um, what are you on about?

The fact that it's a dreadnought aside, the ships aren't nearly destroyed because of the firepower of the First Order fleet. The Supremacy and its escorts keep lobbing shots, but they do jack, partly because of the distance, partly because of the Raddus's shields. They only start getting destroyed when their ploy at Crait is revealed, and in that case it's pinpoint shots against transports, not capital ship, BDO combat like a dreadnought is known for.

Also, the whole "Poe is secretly the hero" thing kinda falls flat when Poe himself never makes the case that if he hadn't destroyed the dreadnaught, they WOULD be destroyed.
That's because the writer wouldn't let Poe take any credit. The whole movie is supposed to play out like Holdo was right, but she was incompetent. Poe took the correct actions with what knowledge he had. Unfortunately he got stuck in a poorly plotted movie. In any case, with the fleet practically destroyed by the end of the run, losing the ships at the beginning is largely meaningless and he got a dreadnought for his trouble.
 

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crimson5pheonix said:
That's because the writer wouldn't let Poe take any credit.
Right...

The whole movie is supposed to play out like Holdo was right, but she was incompetent. Poe took the correct actions with what knowledge he had. Unfortunately he got stuck in a poorly plotted movie.
Holdo's mistake is not letting Poe in on the plan, and it's dubious as to whether that's a mistake (including whether Holdo fits into the film's themes of failure - on the fence with that). In contrast, Poe goes against the chain of command, and loses fighters and bombers for it. He goes against the chain of command again, and ends up with more people getting killed. Poe's failures outweigh Holdo's.

In any case, with the fleet practically destroyed by the end of the run, losing the ships at the beginning is largely meaningless and he got a dreadnought for his trouble.
The Resistance fleet has three ships. Two run out of fuel and are destroyed with only one casualty per ship. If Poe hadn't made a mess of things, far more people would have survived the destruction of the Raddus, including the fighters and bombers, which would have been invaluable if they needed to cover their escape and/or be used on Crait. In contrast, destroying the dreadnought doesn't net the Resistance any short-term gain, and it's made clear that in the context of this point in time, the First Order can afford to lose far more than the Resistance.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Hawki said:
crimson5pheonix said:
That's because the writer wouldn't let Poe take any credit.
Right...

The whole movie is supposed to play out like Holdo was right, but she was incompetent. Poe took the correct actions with what knowledge he had. Unfortunately he got stuck in a poorly plotted movie.
Holdo's mistake is not letting Poe in on the plan, and it's dubious as to whether that's a mistake (including whether Holdo fits into the film's themes of failure - on the fence with that). In contrast, Poe goes against the chain of command, and loses fighters and bombers for it. He goes against the chain of command again, and ends up with more people getting killed. Poe's failures outweigh Holdo's.
Well since Holdo's failures got them there in the first place and set the stage for the actions, I'd hold her accountable above all others. Besides, Poe proves that he is capable of something given the chance. Whether you think his early heroics are showing off or not, they are a display of skill and competence at his job. Holdo has nothing to show for how she got her position.

In any case, with the fleet practically destroyed by the end of the run, losing the ships at the beginning is largely meaningless and he got a dreadnought for his trouble.
The Resistance fleet has three ships. Two run out of fuel and are destroyed with only one casualty per ship. If Poe hadn't made a mess of things, far more people would have survived the destruction of the Raddus, including the fighters and bombers, which would have been invaluable if they needed to cover their escape and/or be used on Crait. In contrast, destroying the dreadnought doesn't net the Resistance any short-term gain, and it's made clear that in the context of this point in time, the First Order can afford to lose far more than the Resistance.
Only if they took said fighters and bombers with them. Those were carrier ships destroyed.
 

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crimson5pheonix said:
Well since Holdo's failures got them there in the first place and set the stage for the actions, I'd hold her accountable above all others.
Holdo's "failures?"

Holdo's plan would have got them to Crait safely is Poe hadn't screwed it up.

Besides, Poe proves that he is capable of something given the chance. Whether you think his early heroics are showing off or not, they are a display of skill and competence at his job. Holdo has nothing to show for how she got her position.
-Fighter pilots and admirals have different jobs.

-Poe has far more media dedicated to him than Holdo, so of course there's going to be more material showing his skills. This is Holdo's first introduction.

-It's the same lack of information that every other Alliance general has had upon introduction.

Only if they took said fighters and bombers with them. Those were carrier ships destroyed.
Wrong.

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ninka (corvette)

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vigil_(ship) (cargo frigate)

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anodyne_(Nebulon-C) (escort frigate)

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Raddus_(MC85_Star_Cruiser) (heavy cruiser)

So, no. The Raddus is the only ship approaching carrier status.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Hawki said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Well since Holdo's failures got them there in the first place and set the stage for the actions, I'd hold her accountable above all others.
Holdo's "failures?"

Holdo's plan would have got them to Crait safely is Poe hadn't screwed it up.
Holdo's job was to command, and she failed to command. Poe's job is to shoot things. He shoots things.

Besides, Poe proves that he is capable of something given the chance. Whether you think his early heroics are showing off or not, they are a display of skill and competence at his job. Holdo has nothing to show for how she got her position.
-Fighter pilots and admirals have different jobs.

-Poe has far more media dedicated to him than Holdo, so of course there's going to be more material showing his skills. This is Holdo's first introduction.

-It's the same lack of information that every other Alliance general has had upon introduction.
Deal with it. We're told Poe is a hotshot pilot and he's shown in his onscreen appearances as a hotshot pilot. We're told Holdo is a trusted commander high up in the tree and her onscreen appearance is her being incompetent. I can't help it if the movie is bad about telling instead of showing.

Only if they took said fighters and bombers with them. Those were carrier ships destroyed.
Wrong.

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ninka (corvette)

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vigil_(ship) (cargo frigate)

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anodyne_(Nebulon-C) (escort frigate)

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Raddus_(MC85_Star_Cruiser) (heavy cruiser)

So, no. The Raddus is the only ship approaching carrier status.
Do they not have holds to hold fighters and/or bombers? Were they all on the Raddus?

Oh wait, by your own links, the squads that were partially destroyed by Poe's play were aboard the Ninka. Assuming they consolidated all the fighters and bombers to the Raddus (which I'm not sure about, they mostly evacuated personnel between ships instead of equipment, which does make sense), then there would have to have been enough room on the Raddus for all the smaller ships from the lost carriers (and I'm going to call them carriers if they were carrying smaller ships since that was clearly a role they had).

Or in other words, unless the other ships were very empty, a lot of the fighters and bombers were going to be lost anyway. Except they wouldn't have done anything to the First Order. Even if Poe's hail mary was minor, it is better than literally nothing. So retroactively, Poe did nothing wrong.
 

Hawki

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crimson5pheonix said:
Holdo's job was to command, and she failed to command.
Holdo commanded fine, mostly. Her one failure was not telling a recently demoted commander a plan because he insisted he be let in the loop.

Poe's job is to shoot things. He shoots things.
And in doing so, got dozens of Resistance pilots killed for a kill that wasn't an equitable exchange given the differences in manpower.

Deal with it. We're told Poe is a hotshot pilot and he's shown in his onscreen appearances as a hotshot pilot. We're told Holdo is a trusted commander high up in the tree and her onscreen appearance is her being incompetent.
Except it DOESN'T show her as being incompetent. Unless telling Poe about her plan that has credence for confidentiality is the be-all and end-all of competency.

Holdo's plan would have worked if not for Poe. Even when Poe throws a wrench in the plan, she gets back in control of her ship. After that, she sacrifices herself and the Raddus because the ramifications of Poe's screwup are being felt. While I'm on the fence as to whether Holdo has an arc, and whether her actions fit into the film's themes, she's in no way incompetent.

Do they not have holds to hold fighters and/or bombers? Were they all on the Raddus?
One ship had a fighter wing apart from the Raddus.

Oh wait, by your own links, the squads that were partially destroyed by Poe's play were aboard the Ninka. Assuming they consolidated all the fighters and bombers to the Raddus (which I'm not sure about, they mostly evacuated personnel between ships instead of equipment, which does make sense), then there would have to have been enough room on the Raddus for all the smaller ships from the lost carriers (and I'm going to call them carriers if they were carrying smaller ships since that was clearly a role they had).
The Raddus is about ten times the size of the Ninka, so there's a strong chance they could fit. Or if they couldn't, they could either:

a) Still evacuate the pilots

b) Keep flying the fighters themselves or have them scatter (A-Wings and MG-100s are equipped with their own hyperdrive)

Also, non-carrier ships still carry aircraft at times (e.g. helicopters). Frigates and destroyers don't magically become carriers because of this, since their roles are completely different. Even the Raddus isn't a carrier (it's a cruiser).

Or in other words, unless the other ships were very empty, a lot of the fighters and bombers were going to be lost anyway. Except they wouldn't have done anything to the First Order. Even if Poe's hail mary was minor, it is better than literally nothing. So retroactively, Poe did nothing wrong.
No.

Even if the Raddus somehow didn't have room to store all the other craft, even if those other craft couldn't scatter or keep flying, those pilots would still be alive. The Resistance is short on both manpower and hardware, while the First Order (apparently) lacks for neither.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Hawki said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Holdo's job was to command, and she failed to command.
Holdo commanded fine, mostly. Her one failure was not telling a recently demoted commander a plan because he insisted he be let in the loop.

Poe's job is to shoot things. He shoots things.
And in doing so, got dozens of Resistance pilots killed for a kill that wasn't an equitable exchange given the differences in manpower.
If a commander faces an armed insurrection and underlings subverting her plans (unknowingly or otherwise), that commander has failed.

If a commander proclaims they will take an enemy out and does so, they have succeeded. Even a poor success is better than an abject failure. Good intentions can only go so far in the face of results.

Deal with it. We're told Poe is a hotshot pilot and he's shown in his onscreen appearances as a hotshot pilot. We're told Holdo is a trusted commander high up in the tree and her onscreen appearance is her being incompetent.
Except it DOESN'T show her as being incompetent. Unless telling Poe about her plan that has credence for confidentiality is the be-all and end-all of competency.

Holdo's plan would have worked if not for Poe. Even when Poe throws a wrench in the plan, she gets back in control of her ship. After that, she sacrifices herself and the Raddus because the ramifications of Poe's screwup are being felt. While I'm on the fence as to whether Holdo has an arc, and whether her actions fit into the film's themes, she's in no way incompetent.
Really? It doesn't look like she succeeded from where I'm sitting.

Do they not have holds to hold fighters and/or bombers? Were they all on the Raddus?
One ship had a fighter wing apart from the Raddus.

Oh wait, by your own links, the squads that were partially destroyed by Poe's play were aboard the Ninka. Assuming they consolidated all the fighters and bombers to the Raddus (which I'm not sure about, they mostly evacuated personnel between ships instead of equipment, which does make sense), then there would have to have been enough room on the Raddus for all the smaller ships from the lost carriers (and I'm going to call them carriers if they were carrying smaller ships since that was clearly a role they had).
The Raddus is about ten times the size of the Ninka, so there's a strong chance they could fit. Or if they couldn't, they could either:

a) Still evacuate the pilots

b) Keep flying the fighters themselves or have them scatter (A-Wings and MG-100s are equipped with their own hyperdrive)

Also, non-carrier ships still carry aircraft at times (e.g. helicopters). Frigates and destroyers don't magically become carriers because of this, since their roles are completely different. Even the Raddus isn't a carrier (it's a cruiser).
Because fighters and bombers are known for their long range capabilities (while there are long range bombers irl, they're more fuel tanks than bombs while the bombers shown in the movie are basically self propelled milk crates with nothing but explosives). And scattering them totally keeps them as part of your battle force. While that plan might have merit, it's the longest of long shots. Meanwhile, Poe's play may not have had much of an impact, it did have one, which is by definition better than nothing.

Or in other words, unless the other ships were very empty, a lot of the fighters and bombers were going to be lost anyway. Except they wouldn't have done anything to the First Order. Even if Poe's hail mary was minor, it is better than literally nothing. So retroactively, Poe did nothing wrong.
No.

Even if the Raddus somehow didn't have room to store all the other craft, even if those other craft couldn't scatter or keep flying, those pilots would still be alive. The Resistance is short on both manpower and hardware, while the First Order (apparently) lacks for neither.
I mean, we can get into the poor writing that is the supposed main government of the galaxy being underpowered compared to what is now a rebel uprising just to keep the "heroes" as the scrappy underdogs. We can also get into the fact that by the standards of dramatic writing, the actual protagonist of these movies is Kylo Ren, but that's neither here nor there. The point is that Poe set out to strike a blow against the FO with the tools he had available and did so. Even through incompetent command. Said incompetent command may have had a brilliant tactical play, but didn't have the skill to pull it off. So Poe did the only thing he could do, fight. And he does it well.

#PoeDidNothingWrong
 

Hawki

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crimson5pheonix said:
If a commander faces an armed insurrection and underlings subverting her plans (unknowingly or otherwise), that commander has failed.
Highly debatable. Especially here, since the underlings are clearly in the wrong.

If a commander proclaims they will take an enemy out and does so, they have succeeded.
That claim ignores any kind of context. If applied to the real-world, that can be used to justify any kind of action regardless of cost as long as damage is inflicted on the enemy.

Even a poor success is better than an abject failure. Good intentions can only go so far in the face of results.
So, by this own train of thought, Poe's good intentions only go so far in the face of results, which is a non-equitable exchange of resources with the First Order, where the Resistance loses far more than the First Order in a costly offensive.

Really? It doesn't look like she succeeded from where I'm sitting.
And I never claimed she "succeeded," I stated that she would have if not for Poe.

I mean, we can get into the poor writing that is the supposed main government of the galaxy being underpowered compared to what is now a rebel uprising just to keep the "heroes" as the scrappy underdogs.
That says more about worldbuilding than writing. And the New Republic has just lost its capital, its government, and the majority of its fleet. Much as I wish the sequel trilogy wasn't intent on rehashing the original trilogy, the dye was cast back in TFA.

We can also get into the fact that by the standards of dramatic writing, the actual protagonist of these movies is Kylo Ren, but that's neither here nor there.
Right...

The point is that Poe set out to strike a blow against the FO with the tools he had available and did so.
At the cost of numerous fighters and bombers, which cost the Resistance far more than than the First Order proportionally.

Even through incompetent command.
So now Leia's incompetent as well?

Leia was in the right. Poe wasted their aerospace assets, and did so while ignoring the commands of a general.

Said incompetent command may have had a brilliant tactical play, but didn't have the skill to pull it off. So Poe did the only thing he could do, fight.
Poe doing the "only thing he could do" is what squanders the play.

And he does it well.
So, let's see...

-Wastes the Resistance's entire bomber wing and a sizable portion of its fighter wing on an assault that yields little benefit.

-Stages an uprising that results in even more Resistance deaths.

Yep, really did a good job there.

#PoeDidNothingWrong
See above.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Hawki said:
crimson5pheonix said:
If a commander faces an armed insurrection and underlings subverting her plans (unknowingly or otherwise), that commander has failed.
Highly debatable. Especially here, since the underlings are clearly in the wrong.

If a commander proclaims they will take an enemy out and does so, they have succeeded.
That claim ignores any kind of context. If applied to the real-world, that can be used to justify any kind of action regardless of cost as long as damage is inflicted on the enemy.
I don't see the underling in the wrong, I see the underling under terrible command trying to rectify the situation. A much more competent underling.

Even a poor success is better than an abject failure. Good intentions can only go so far in the face of results.
So, by this own train of thought, Poe's good intentions only go so far in the face of results, which is a non-equitable exchange of resources with the First Order, where the Resistance loses far more than the First Order in a costly offensive.
I want to hold on this point for a moment. I know that relative losses are more important than absolute losses, especially in asymmetric warfare like how these movies play out, but at some point you have to compare relative losses to absolute losses to gauge the feasibility of your war effort when taking your grand strategy in mind. The rebels want to remove the FO's ability to act in known space. That requires them to vanquish a majority of the FO forces.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Crimson_Squadron
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cobalt_Squadron

Crimson squadron was 5 bombers crewed by 5 people each and were totally wiped out. Cobalt squadron has basically no information but must have included all the fighters and a couple of bombers. Fighters, to my knowledge, have a crew of 1. So Poe's losses couldn't number higher than 50.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandator_IV-class_Siege_Dreadnought

The dreadnought they shot down was 7 and a half kilometers long and crewed by 215,000.

If you look at an absolute tally of 4,300:1 kills and a price tag ratio that I wouldn't want to count if I could, and say "these are unacceptable losses that will lose us the war", you've already lost to numbers. Their grand strategy cannot succeed against a material advantage that strong.

In the words of Xykon from OotS: "Only two things matter: Force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide. In any battle, there's always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed."

The rebels are against such a force. Logistically they cannot possibly win. Granted this is SW, so the actual military forces don't matter compared to the big heroes dueling the big villains.

Really? It doesn't look like she succeeded from where I'm sitting.
And I never claimed she "succeeded," I stated that she would have if not for Poe.
Which is to say she failed. She couldn't do her job on screen.

I mean, we can get into the poor writing that is the supposed main government of the galaxy being underpowered compared to what is now a rebel uprising just to keep the "heroes" as the scrappy underdogs.
That says more about worldbuilding than writing. And the New Republic has just lost its capital, its government, and the majority of its fleet. Much as I wish the sequel trilogy wasn't intent on rehashing the original trilogy, the dye was cast back in TFA.
Granted. FO alpha strike OP, pls nerf plox.

We can also get into the fact that by the standards of dramatic writing, the actual protagonist of these movies is Kylo Ren, but that's neither here nor there.
Right...
Exactly. Which is why it's frustrating to see the movies like this, I would love for that to be played well. Have the villain as the one growing and learning instead of the hero, make it their journey instead. That's a really interesting way to write a story. It's a shame the villain is Kylo Ren.


The point is that Poe set out to strike a blow against the FO with the tools he had available and did so.
At the cost of numerous fighters and bombers, which cost the Resistance far more than than the First Order proportionally.

Even through incompetent command.
So now Leia's incompetent as well?

Leia was in the right. Poe wasted their aerospace assets, and did so while ignoring the commands of a general.

Said incompetent command may have had a brilliant tactical play, but didn't have the skill to pull it off. So Poe did the only thing he could do, fight.
Poe doing the "only thing he could do" is what squanders the play.

And he does it well.
So, let's see...

-Wastes the Resistance's entire bomber wing and a sizable portion of its fighter wing on an assault that yields little benefit.

-Stages an uprising that results in even more Resistance deaths.

Yep, really did a good job there.

#PoeDidNothingWrong
See above.
You see above. That's not an uphill battle the rebels have, it's a statistical impossibility. And not a "don't tell me the odds" kind of statistical impossibility.
 

Hawki

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crimson5pheonix said:
I don't see the underling in the wrong, I see the underling under terrible command trying to rectify the situation. A much more competent underling.
Except the command is good, and the underling blows the plan to pieces.

Even if you want to lay blame on Holdo, Poe is still throwing chain of command to the wind.

I want to hold on this point for a moment. I know that relative losses are more important than absolute losses, especially in asymmetric warfare like how these movies play out, but at some point you have to compare relative losses to absolute losses to gauge the feasibility of your war effort when taking your grand strategy in mind. The rebels want to remove the FO's ability to act in known space. That requires them to vanquish a majority of the FO forces.
Semantics, but not necessarily. The Rebellion didn't need to wipe out the majority of the Empire's forces, they just needed to wipe out Palpatine. After that, the Empire self-disintegrated. Arguably, the First Order is already down that path after the loss of Snoke.

If you look at an absolute tally of 4,300:1 kills and a price tag ratio that I wouldn't want to count if I could, and say "these are unacceptable losses that will lose us the war", you've already lost to numbers. Their grand strategy cannot succeed against a material advantage that strong.
Alright, but what's the Resistance's alternative? Lie down and let the First Order rule?

Obviously there's some ratio that favours the Resistance (no-one's complaining about Starkiller Base's costs), but at this point in time, the Resistance is down to a handful of ships, without safe harbour, without support, facing an enemy powerful enough to start establishing control over swathes of the galaxy. Far better to try and improve your odds than squander what remaining forces you have.

The rebels are against such a force. Logistically they cannot possibly win. Granted this is SW, so the actual military forces don't matter compared to the big heroes dueling the big villains.
That's up to Ep. IX to declare. TLJ shows that the actions of the Resistance and Luke have already reached elements of the galaxy's populace (tying in with the themes again). But the idea of a war coming down to the actions of a few individuals isn't endemic to Star Wars (see Lord of the Rings for instance).

Which is to say she failed. She couldn't do her job on screen.
Technically, Poe couldn't. He's the one launching a mutiny, he's the one who's refusing to follow the chain of command, he's the one who takes 90% of the movie to learn some humility. Holdo's failure is in not indulging him.

Exactly. Which is why it's frustrating to see the movies like this, I would love for that to be played well. Have the villain as the one growing and learning instead of the hero, make it their journey instead. That's a really interesting way to write a story. It's a shame the villain is Kylo Ren.
Except Kylo Ren does grow (or change). That isn't even unusual - both Luke and Vader changed over the course of the OT. Key difference is that Vader and Ren are going in opposite directions (in terms of light-dark).
 

Agema

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crimson5pheonix said:
That's because the writer wouldn't let Poe take any credit.
Sure. And so also would Sauron have killed the Fellowship of the Ring and overrun Middle Earth if it wasn't the fact the writer wouldn't let him win.

The whole movie is supposed to play out like Holdo was right, but she was incompetent. Poe took the correct actions with what knowledge he had.
This is not a good argument. In the military, knowledge tends to exist on a "need to know" basis. If you are taking actions at a level higher than your rank, then you are probably taking actions you lack the knowledge to usefully assess are correct or not. When your superiors - who do have the appropriate knowledge - are telling you not to act, and you act anyway, chances are better than evens you're a fucking imbecile who deserves demotion or court martial.
 

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Hawki said:
The Resistance fleet has three ships. Two run out of fuel and are destroyed with only one casualty per ship. If Poe hadn't made a mess of things, far more people would have survived the destruction of the Raddus, including the fighters and bombers, which would have been invaluable if they needed to cover their escape and/or be used on Crait. In contrast, destroying the dreadnought doesn't net the Resistance any short-term gain, and it's made clear that in the context of this point in time, the First Order can afford to lose far more than the Resistance.
Picking this spot as a jumping off point because it's on the current page...

Space battles in the SW universe are based off WWII. It's as close to the one absolute truth you'll ever find with this franchise, and it's been consistent in every film, series, and canon spin-off to date. The words have come out of Lucas' mouth with regards to ANH, all the way through to TLJ with Johnson's B-17 and B-29 inspired bombers. Ergo, when discussing the capital ships, the most direct comparison to make are ships -- and their roles -- in WWII.

By the time of WWII, submarines, torpedoes, and aircraft, as well as the ever-increasing range and accuracy of battleship weapons extending their range to stand-off distance, necessitating scouting vessels and aircraft to spot, target, and to a lesser degree range-find, had in reality reduced the role of the battleship to that of fire support to the larger battlegroup. This is all despite admirals' and naval powers' dogged, regressive, adherence to Mahanian doctrine of considering the largest, most powerful, ships the centerpiece of a battlegroup around which all vessels are designed to support. And, this is despite of the colossal cost in terms of time, money, and materiel that went into the design, construction, and supply of battleships.

So, in short, at the time during which SW space conflict is directly and unarguably based, justifying direct historical comparisons some of which have already been employed in this very conversation, the "dreadnought" (e.g. battleship) was a necessary evil. They needed an entire battlegroup to support them, because they were too vaulable and too vulnerable a target, but necessary because...

...and I'm giving this its own line to make the point...

...they had the biggest, most damaging, longest-ranged, and most accurate guns.

So there we have it.

"Buh orbital bombardment!" The Fulminatrix was targeting the Raddus and preparing to fire when it was destroyed, it has the capability to target and hit other capital ships. Not to mention its own massive complement of TIE fighters. Next "argument".

"Buh muh range!" See above argument. Plus, the First Order fleet jumped in at knife fight range when chasing the Resistance away from D'Qar, the Fulminatrix would have ample time to target and destroy the Raddus on the spot. Next "argument".

"Buh Supremacy!" Read the lore. The Supremacy was a command, control, and logistics (and arguably surface assault?) vessel first and foremost, but reserved enough defensive ability to fend off an attack. The Fulminatrix was a purpose-built weapons platform, and the entire purpose of the orbital autocannons was their ability to pierce planetary shielding...which a brief aside, why did Holdo and Leia think the abandoned base on Crait was their best option again? What specifically did it have?

Ask Rian Johnson why it didn't have a battery of orbital autocannons -- to me, reading the canon lore on the vessel, it would have been a more useful addition to the ship given its fighter and ground force complement than even more turbolasers. But, if there's one thing everyone can agree upon, hopefully it's the filmmaker and creatives associated with the SW films have never had a particularly firm grasp on doctrine or weapons design.

And, a parting point. It's funny how awfully fast people want to talk about relative losses and cost-to-benefit ratios when it comes to Poe attacking the dreadnought that would have destroyed the entire Resistance in a single shot at literally any later point in the film had it been left in one piece, but get real skittish on the subject when it comes to Holdo systemically sacrificing every hyperspace-capable ship left in Resistance hands...to get to an abandoned base with what seems like little food or water, only small arms, no fuel, and no apparent way to get themselves off the planet. All to ram the Raddus into the Supremacy whilst in hyperspace at the last-possible second.

A move she could have done easily with one of the two escorting ships to similar, if not necessarily equal, results, at a point the Resistance fleet still had fuel, time, and options. Thereby sacrificing one ship to disable a significant portion of the First Order fleet, if not knock the Supremacy out of the chase, buying the Resistance more time and options.

Or, considering the Resistance somehow had the Supremacy's schematics, which we know from the film to be accurate, and Finn and Rose somehow figured out where the tracker was, and that they were tracking the Resistance from only the Supremacy, they could have...made a simultaneous jump with all three ships earlier in the engagement while they still had the fuel, except one jump would have been targeted directly at the Supremacy, or more specifically the portion of the ship that housed the tracker.

That one's not even my idea. A few weeks back my local gaming group was bitching about the movie, and I asked them what they would have done given the information at their disposal. We wrapped up a pretty long-lived SWD6 game not long ago, so Star Wars in sum is still fresh on the mind. It took them all of thirty seconds to figure that one out.
 

WindKnight

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Eacaraxe said:
And, a parting point. It's funny how awfully fast people want to talk about relative losses and cost-to-benefit ratios when it comes to Poe attacking the dreadnought that would have destroyed the entire Resistance in a single shot at literally any later point in the film had it been left in one piece, but get real skittish on the subject when it comes to Holdo systemically sacrificing every hyperspace-capable ship left in Resistance hands...to get to an abandoned base with what seems like little food or water, only small arms, no fuel, and no apparent way to get themselves off the planet. All to ram the Raddus into the Supremacy whilst in hyperspace at the last-possible second.

A move she could have done easily with one of the two escorting ships to similar, if not necessarily equal, results, at a point the Resistance fleet still had fuel, time, and options. Thereby sacrificing one ship to disable a significant portion of the First Order fleet, if not knock the Supremacy out of the chase, buying the Resistance more time and options.
The suicide run worked ONLY because the first order was ignoring the Raddus at the time. It's specifically called out to Hux that the ship is turning about, and the order is given to not fire on it, and to keep focussing on the transports. Each time the other ships ran out of fuel, they were obliterated pretty much instantly - any other ship turning to do the ramming maneuver would have been dead before they got it off. Remember, Star Wars treats space flight as pretty much exactly like air to air combat. There's no true zero g inertia based movement.

the first order only knew to look for the transports because of the leak Poe caused. If he had kept his mouth in check, the first order would have kept chasing the ships, and a lot more people would have made it to the planet. Hell, they may well have got rescued long before the first order figured out they had been duped.

As to the dreadnought following ...

Even if Poe was 'right' it was not from making a well informed judgement call. They had no idea about hyperspace tracking. It doesn't invalidate he ignored orders. It doesn't invalidated he Got People Killed. It doesn't invalidate that when Leia CHEWED HIM OUT over it, his response was not 'oh hey, maybe I should think on this criticism' it was 'HOW DARE YOU CRITICISE ME!'
 

Agema

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Eacaraxe said:
...which a brief aside, why did Holdo and Leia think the abandoned base on Crait was their best option again? What specifically did it have?

Ask Rian Johnson why it didn't have a battery of orbital autocannons --
As stated in the movie, the Resistance is attempting to go to ground, so it wants a base with the primary characteristics of being unknown and out-of-the-way. (It might also be possible that the First Order fleet is powerful enough to trash a planetary base with orbital autocannons anyway, so no benefit to having them anyway.) I dare say people don't leave bases containing plenty of hyperspace-capable ships and orbital defence cannons lying around - those things strike me as a bit too valuable (and dangerous if they fall into the wrong hands).

You also seem to assume the dreadnought can simply delete cruisers at will. Maybe it can't, and the Raddus actually had the ability to take enough of a pounding before escaping even if targetted.

It's not that most fiction is ever going to be faultless, and lord knows TLJ is far from faultless. But there's also a point where you can be so determined to find error that you start manufacturing it out of nothing.

* * *

At any rate, any story which has to manufacture a reason why an entire Galactic Republic doesn't have a fleet to combat the First Order is kind of pushing its luck right from the offset anyway.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Hawki said:
crimson5pheonix said:
I don't see the underling in the wrong, I see the underling under terrible command trying to rectify the situation. A much more competent underling.
Except the command is good, and the underling blows the plan to pieces.

Even if you want to lay blame on Holdo, Poe is still throwing chain of command to the wind.
And it makes absolute sense for him to do so. Especially since this is SW and hot blooded heroics trumps cold calculation every day.

I want to hold on this point for a moment. I know that relative losses are more important than absolute losses, especially in asymmetric warfare like how these movies play out, but at some point you have to compare relative losses to absolute losses to gauge the feasibility of your war effort when taking your grand strategy in mind. The rebels want to remove the FO's ability to act in known space. That requires them to vanquish a majority of the FO forces.
Semantics, but not necessarily. The Rebellion didn't need to wipe out the majority of the Empire's forces, they just needed to wipe out Palpatine. After that, the Empire self-disintegrated. Arguably, the First Order is already down that path after the loss of Snoke.
I mean, we'll find out if Kylo Ren (or Rei scare chord) and Hux can keep the military together, but yes, SW ends with the hero beating the big villain and we ignore things like chain of command or logistics afterward.

If you look at an absolute tally of 4,300:1 kills and a price tag ratio that I wouldn't want to count if I could, and say "these are unacceptable losses that will lose us the war", you've already lost to numbers. Their grand strategy cannot succeed against a material advantage that strong.
Alright, but what's the Resistance's alternative? Lie down and let the First Order rule?

Obviously there's some ratio that favours the Resistance (no-one's complaining about Starkiller Base's costs), but at this point in time, the Resistance is down to a handful of ships, without safe harbour, without support, facing an enemy powerful enough to start establishing control over swathes of the galaxy. Far better to try and improve your odds than squander what remaining forces you have.
What you do is scale back your grand strategy. Fighting the FO to total victory is mathematically impossible for the rebels, but take an area of the galaxy and holding it is within their scope. At that point the FO does become defacto in control of the rest of the galaxy, but that means they have to rule it, which means dividing their forces. From there the rebels can build themselves up and pick their battles against enemy key points instead of having to take all comers, which they clearly can't afford to do.

The rebels are against such a force. Logistically they cannot possibly win. Granted this is SW, so the actual military forces don't matter compared to the big heroes dueling the big villains.
That's up to Ep. IX to declare. TLJ shows that the actions of the Resistance and Luke have already reached elements of the galaxy's populace (tying in with the themes again). But the idea of a war coming down to the actions of a few individuals isn't endemic to Star Wars (see Lord of the Rings for instance).
It's not endemic to SW, but SW purely operates on that logic.

Which is to say she failed. She couldn't do her job on screen.
Technically, Poe couldn't. He's the one launching a mutiny, he's the one who's refusing to follow the chain of command, he's the one who takes 90% of the movie to learn some humility. Holdo's failure is in not indulging him.
No, Poe did his job. In any sane military they start asking you how many medals you want for scoring a 10:1 victory. Poe destroying that capital ship is a miraculous achievement.

Meanwhile, Holdo can't command her troops effectively enough to execute her plan.

Exactly. Which is why it's frustrating to see the movies like this, I would love for that to be played well. Have the villain as the one growing and learning instead of the hero, make it their journey instead. That's a really interesting way to write a story. It's a shame the villain is Kylo Ren.
Except Kylo Ren does grow (or change). That isn't even unusual - both Luke and Vader changed over the course of the OT. Key difference is that Vader and Ren are going in opposite directions (in terms of light-dark).
Well Ren may or may not be going in a different direction. But the point is that I know Ren is growing, I just think Ren is a whiny little ***** and wish the protagonist was funner.

Agema said:
crimson5pheonix said:
That's because the writer wouldn't let Poe take any credit.
Sure. And so also would Sauron have killed the Fellowship of the Ring and overrun Middle Earth if it wasn't the fact the writer wouldn't let him win.
True, but there isn't a lingering question overhead of "what did Sauron do wrong?" for the readers to ponder the writer's decision.

The whole movie is supposed to play out like Holdo was right, but she was incompetent. Poe took the correct actions with what knowledge he had.
This is not a good argument. In the military, knowledge tends to exist on a "need to know" basis. If you are taking actions at a level higher than your rank, then you are probably taking actions you lack the knowledge to usefully assess are correct or not. When your superiors - who do have the appropriate knowledge - are telling you not to act, and you act anyway, chances are better than evens you're a fucking imbecile who deserves demotion or court martial.
"Better than evens" presumes your commander is competent. Holdo isn't that.
 

Squilookle

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crimson5pheonix said:
Hawki said:
Technically, Poe couldn't. He's the one launching a mutiny, he's the one who's refusing to follow the chain of command, he's the one who takes 90% of the movie to learn some humility. Holdo's failure is in not indulging him.
No, Poe did his job. In any sane military they start asking you how many medals you want for scoring a 10:1 victory. Poe destroying that capital ship is a miraculous achievement.

Meanwhile, Holdo can't command her troops effectively enough to execute her plan.
You sound just like a Vietnam Vet. A great kill ratio doesn't mean a thing if it loses you the war anyway.

"Better than evens" presumes your commander is competent. Holdo isn't that.
And I wouldn't fancy your odds when using that as a flimsy defence in a military tribunal. Especially if you acted before said incompetence had been proven.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Squilookle said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Hawki said:
Technically, Poe couldn't. He's the one launching a mutiny, he's the one who's refusing to follow the chain of command, he's the one who takes 90% of the movie to learn some humility. Holdo's failure is in not indulging him.
No, Poe did his job. In any sane military they start asking you how many medals you want for scoring a 10:1 victory. Poe destroying that capital ship is a miraculous achievement.

Meanwhile, Holdo can't command her troops effectively enough to execute her plan.
You sound just like a Vietnam Vet. A great kill ratio doesn't mean a thing if it loses you the war anyway.
And I pointed out that if they can't afford the kill ratio he got, they lost the war to logistics already. That is an unprecedented military victory he pulled off outside of Luke blowing up the Death Star. If the rebels expect to actually fight the FO, they should be praying for victories like that. If they plan on causing a mass uprising across the galaxy, they should still be praying for victories like that. The propaganda writes itself.

"Poe Dameron scores unprecedented victory over First Order, the resistance needs YOU."

The only reason you might fear costly victories is if you're only slightly behind your foe and need to play your cards very carefully. Clearly the rebels are so far behind the FO that their actual military assets are largely meaningless.

"Better than evens" presumes your commander is competent. Holdo isn't that.
And I wouldn't fancy your odds when using that as a flimsy defence in a military tribunal. Especially if you acted before said incompetence had been proven.
It wasn't just Poe rising up, she had a full scale mutiny. She was in command for hours and she botched morale so hard that her crew rose up against her. That's the sign of a bad commander.