National Guard called into Minneapolis

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lil devils x

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Elizabeth Warren calls for Probes into Trumps use of the Military against peaceful protesters exercising their right to peacefully assemble:
 

Revnak

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Yes it’s terrible that he is threatening to kill someone from a tank for, uh, being in the road, but you know what’s worse? In a community of around 70,000 people the police own a tank. There are entire nations less heavily armed than the police force of this tiny community.
 

Thaluikhain

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Yes it’s terrible that he is threatening to kill someone from a tank for, uh, being in the road, but you know what’s worse? In a community of around 70,000 people the police own a tank.
Can't speak for that vehicle, but some years back the US Army was giving away stuff it didn't want anymore free to anyone governmenty that wanted it, including pre-loved armoured vehicles. In of itself not a terrible idea, but it gives police ideas.
 

Revnak

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Can't speak for that vehicle, but some years back the US Army was giving away stuff it didn't want anymore free to anyone governmenty that wanted it, including pre-loved armoured vehicles. In of itself not a terrible idea, but it gives police ideas.
Maybe they could just give it to the Taliban like they do with most military surplus.
 

Agema

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Yes it’s terrible that he is threatening to kill someone from a tank for, uh, being in the road, but you know what’s worse? In a community of around 70,000 people the police own a tank.
That's just an armoured car, and a pretty lightweight one (just a reinforced jeep) considering they can come as heavy as:
1591174763994.png
 

Revnak

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100. Consider that number for just a second. There’s no justification for any of these, it’s literal press covering protests, that’s their fucking jobs. Official press, legally carrying press badges, does not fucking matter. 100 attacks that all could have caused major injuries or permanent disabilities, many of which did. This is obviously not all of their attacks. Of course not. This is their most obviously illegitimate attacks against targets who in any scenario cannot be seen as being their enemies, as being legitimate targets. These are people who make up almost certainly a tiny fraction of the crowds these cops are abusing. And yet, 100 attacks. The people are not rioting, the cops are rioting and the people are joining their riots.
 

Hawki

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Sure, you can find plenty of evidence of violence in prehistoric humans pretty much going back to the origins of our species, homo sapiens, but homo sapiens aren't just physically modern humans, they're behaviourally modern humans. Early homo sapiens may have lacked some of our capacity for language and abstract thought, but they were absolutely nothing like animals. They lived in a complex society where they could share ideas, not just through proto-language but also through art. A lot of the earliest evidence we find for violence or "warfare" between human groups is from artistic depictions, not evidence of injury. It's also worth noting that there's enormous evidence for widespread exchange and trade among early homo sapiens as well as violence.
You originally stated "For the vast majority of human (well, hominid) history, there is little to no evidence that humans fought each other at all." I'm not sure how you're backing up your statement or refuting my statement, which was that there's plenty of evidence of violence pre-agriculture. If anything, via art, you're further backing up evidence of violence.

Whether humans are inherently violent or not is another question, but violence in of itself has definitely existed.

Early homo sapiens were not inherently violent, they were inherently clever. They were perfectly capable of either cooperating or competing, and of weighing up and choosing which strategy to follow. That is why they were the most successful creatures on the planet, their intelligence and complex social organisation made them limitlessly adaptable.

But earlier humans were more instinctive, they were more like animals, and these early humans show very little evidence of violence, certainly no evidence of organised warfare between bands. Had early humans been driven by instinct to fight each other because of "tribalism" or dominance, they wouldn't have survived the paleolithic because, even without our behaviourally modern intelligence, humans are one of the most deadly animals on the planet.
I'd say it's only because of our intelligence that humans are so deadly. Sapiens makes the case better than I ever could, but on one hand, humans come into the world completely helpless, take years to mature, and require relatively large amounts of food to survive because our brains demand it. On the other hand, humans are the most cooperative species on the planet - other mammals can operate in packs, we can operate in tribes of up to about 150, and have a forum for representing the interests of 8 billion. That, and our mastery of tools, mastery of the environment, etc.

But if we're arguing whether humans are inherently violent, that's another matter. I've seen arguments for and against, and I can't really take any side. I'd certainly say that humans inherently have a capacity for violence, but we have mechanisms to try and curtail it as well across cultures.
 

Agema

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I am sure that the cops also call it a reinforced jeep rather than “the tank.”
Well, I certainly think there's an arm of the police who get all swoony at the thought of being like the army.

I assume these are the guys who loved the idea of being all tooled up, but weren't so sold on being stuck in a barracks with minimal amenities half their life, getting chewed out by a drill instructor and the risk of being deployed somewhere full of sand and assault rifle toting lunatics, like Texas.


Whether humans are inherently violent or not is another question
Much like whether we're inherently artistic, or religious, curious, etc. Clearly it's all part of the mix of humanity, but it's not perhaps quite the right way to think about the issue.
 

Revnak

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Well, I certainly think there's an arm of the police who get all swoony at the thought of being like the army.

I assume these are the guys who loved the idea of being all tooled up, but weren't so sold on being stuck in a barracks with minimal amenities half their life, getting chewed out by a drill instructor and the risk of being deployed somewhere full of sand and assault rifle toting lunatics, like Texas.
Sadly a huge fraction of police, particularly violent police, are veterans. The police actively try to recruit them. Given soldiers are conditioned to kill without hesitating and our country provides absolutely garbage mental health service to them afterwards, they are arguably the least suited human beings to carrying a gun around while giving people parking tickets.
 

Thaluikhain

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Sadly a huge fraction of police, particularly violent police, are veterans. The police actively try to recruit them. Given soldiers are conditioned to kill without hesitating and our country provides absolutely garbage mental health service to them afterwards, they are arguably the least suited human beings to carrying a gun around while giving people parking tickets.
Not to mention, at least in some police forces in the US (such as Miami), they have military style drill instructors with the hats and the yelling.
 

tstorm823

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So acknowledged and making no long term changes is somehow not being ignored as usual? We are so far beyond time for talking about it already...
Everything I stated above is true. You have to have blinders on to see a different reality here. " Ignored as usual" = another unarmed black person targeted, abused or killed by police tomorrow and no one arresting the police officer for it. If that is still happening, it is still being ignored.

What's being done about Breonna Taylor's murder? They have been protesting that too.
Why do you insist there are no long term changes being made? Why do you insist nothing has changed? Your description of "ignored as usual" literally isn't happening in this case.

"All the problems of the world haven't been fixed yet? The government must not be listening, let's yell louder" is not a helpful view point.
 

lil devils x

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Why do you insist there are no long term changes being made? Why do you insist nothing has changed? Your description of "ignored as usual" literally isn't happening in this case.

"All the problems of the world haven't been fixed yet? The government must not be listening, let's yell louder" is not a helpful view point.
I was quite specific. I am not talking about " all the problems in the world". I am talking about THIS problem. The idea that stopping the targeting, abusing and killing of unarmed black people by police is " all the problems in the world" is absurd. It isn't "all the problems in the world", it isn't " too hard" or " too much" to expect here and yea, I expect you not to act like it is. If they kill unarmed people they go to jail. If they target and abuse unarmed black people they are kicked off the force. If they assault unarmed black people they are charged. It isn't that hard. Why would it be so hard to treat black people the same way the police would treat Trump? That is how they should be treating everyone and it would solve a lot of problems here. I don't think anyone should be forced to yell at all. They should have acted already and there is no excuse for them not to have already acted. And NO, I do not consider the President of the United States cowardly and weakly using the US military against unarmed US citizens peacefully exercising their first amendment rights for a sacrilegious photo op as " acting" to resolve the issue here at all.
 
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Seanchaidh

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have a forum for representing the interests of 8 billion.
Arguably. However, what's more to the point is that we absolutely could have such a forum and it could look pretty similar to the UN, but with massively different governments participating in it.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.

ObsidianJones

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Why do you insist there are no long term changes being made? Why do you insist nothing has changed? Your description of "ignored as usual" literally isn't happening in this case.

"All the problems of the world haven't been fixed yet? The government must not be listening, let's yell louder" is not a helpful view point.
Well, the officer with his knee on a person's neck in seattle after the Floyd. The lack of the police reaching out to their communities and trying to actually reform their tactics for another. And especially during this time, the police (like the NYPD) are deploying cowardly and frankly illegal acts to attack indiscriminately.

Now, we're getting into the meat of the problem. We've always known two things.

1.) Discrimination is Harmful and Destructive to the Party it is visited on.

2.) Discrimination will most likely be apart of our society's make up with finite resources and accepted power imbalances.

Most of the western world is chanting Floyd's name. Which is outstanding. They chanted Tamir Rice's name. They chanted Freddy Grey's name. Eric Garner. Philando Castile. Alton Sterling. Akai Gurley, Terence Crutcher... This list is getting way too depressing to continue, actually.

The point is, at one time or the other, the world spoke each of their names. And the policing still happens as it does. Literally after the controversial move took Floyd's life, a cop used it on a protester.

Being Heard is not the same as being Heeded. I hear "Thoughts and Prayers" from big companies and the like, but what I take it as is "Corporate Mandated Positive P.R.". And in my cynical world, I take 'donations' as something they withdraw out of their advertising budget and itemized on their charities list for some kind of rebate during Tax Season.

Being Heeded is being invited into the discussion. Having your actual thoughts and feelings and experiences added to the discussion to help transform the future. Are we being heeded here? Will there be discussions on how to actually best fight crime and/or poverty that causes crime? Will there be movements, jobs, education reform that doesn't just slap an used band-aid on the problem so the politicians can go home and sleep well that night knowing they earned 6% more of the vote next term? Or the opposite side politicians who will just drain more and more money from an already beleaguered people and tell them to stop whining and figure it out?

We have alarmed interest. I've seen no one break ranks and actually talk to protesters. I see a lot of "You're being heard" and "You're protesting for your rights", and not any "Ok, so I got police oversight committees here, Local government, federal government, and educational supervisors. I'm glad you're with us. How are we going to accomplish any differences in this situation?"
 

Revnak

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Casual war crimes.
Edit- The cops doing this are law and order. The medics? Likely anarchists or strongly connected with anarchist organizations. Which is the actual terrorist organization?
 

CaitSeith

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Hell, freaking Kaepernik taking a knee rocked the nation. What reality do you live in where protests are "ignored as usual"?
In the one where George Floyd got suffocated to death by the police even after Kaepernik "rocked" the nation. George Floyd murder is factual evidence that Kaepernik taking a knee was ignored as usual.
 
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