National Guard called into Minneapolis

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Secondhand Revenant

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So it's dumb for media not to always reflect the grim [current year] politics as they are and anything related to them?

So

Star Trek the Next Generation Bad, Picard Good ?

Should people not be allowed their escapism?

Where do you draw the line on what politics should be present always in said escapism if you believe that it's necessary to constantly have it present?


Well she's your wife, at least until the divorce comes through and she's into BDSM so likelyif she says the safe word.
But enough of me being silly with nonsense like that.

You're arguing about good faith but wouldn't trying to bring political topics into areas where there haven't been one and people go to retreat from them itself be an act of badfaith toward the perceived audience of said things working from the presumption they don't care and need to be made to care or are too ignorant to know about things so much have it placed into such locations or they wouldn't engage with it?
Let's put this on hold until you answer me what `Oddly I borrowed the argument from Moviebob hence I linked the related video to point out the argument. ` has to do with anything. I asked that question and you failed to answer it. What does Moviebob have to do with anything here? I'm judging the argument on its merits, why are you pulling him into it? You used the argument, why do I care who else made it first?

You also keep asking blatantly dishonest leading questions concerning things I haven't said at all. Like dumb for media to not reflect politics??? I said jack shit about media choosing not to do something. Where did I ever suggest that?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Let's put this on hold until you answer me what `Oddly I borrowed the argument from Moviebob hence I linked the related video to point out the argument. ` has to do with anything.
Well it's not an original argument I came up with as such.

You also keep asking blatantly dishonest leading questions concerning things I haven't said at all. Like dumb for media to not reflect politics??? I said jack shit about media choosing not to do something. Where did I ever suggest that?
The question help build and picture and reinforce a point.

If you provide the answer or not publicly doesn't matter so much. Though your anger at them suggests the point is rather hitting home.
You're missing the point when you think a protest should sit in a neat box where people can ignore it as they please, because if that's what happens then the people it's meant to reach and put pressure on will do just that.

Edit: Like, you're literally illustrating the exact problem the image points out. Oh no you can't do it this way or that way, the only acceptable protest ends up being a protest that has no bite or effectiveness and you can turn your head away from.
Seems like you're very much for politics entering into areas of escapism more based on this post which was in reply to me pointing out why there was objections to recurrent protest actions done at sports fixtures.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Well it's not an original argument I came up with as such.
Okay, so what? Why bring it up again is my question? It answered nothing i said

The question help build and picture and reinforce a point.

If you provide the answer or not publicly doesn't matter so much. Though your anger at them suggests the point is rather hitting home.
It doesn't because it logically follows from nothing and I *already* answered one such question and you did nothing with the response. I already said that people are allowed to not have it in, that allowing it in does not disallow media without it. But you completely ignored that for some reason (hint: because you're arguing in bad faith)

Seems like you're very much for politics entering into areas of escapism more based on this post which was in reply to me pointing out why there was objections to recurrent protest actions done at sports fixtures.
Except you're phrasing it the way only someone without any scruples would. To say it's fine for it to enter those areas is not the same as saying it's dumb for media to *not* reflect it. To say it's acceptable to enter is not the same as your utter raving lunacy about disallowing it from not being in.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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My allegation is your questions are not to build a picture or reinforce a point. They're there to be dishonest in their implications.

You make false implications when you say "So it's dumb for media not to always reflect the grim [current year] politics as they are and anything related to them? ". I didn't ever say anything close to it. It has *no* relation to the other points and is a leap you haven't justified at all. And that's why you're sticking to just asking questions like that, because you're not building a logical argument, you're just making absurd implications that if I think that it's okay to insert politics into these things that... I think it's dumb when people choose not to??? Like in what world can you claim to be in good faith with that. Where's the logical link that thinking it is okay to insert a message or grab attention *requires* that it be done?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Okay, so what? Why bring it up again is my question? It answered nothing i said
Because seeing it in context of where it came from might change how people view it.


It doesn't because it logically follows from nothing and I *already* answered one such question and you did nothing with the response. I already said that people are allowed to not have it in, that allowing it in does not disallow media without it. But you completely ignored that for some reason (hint: because you're arguing in bad faith)
Oh I did something with the response.


Except you're phrasing it the way only someone without any scruples would. To say it's fine for it to enter those areas is not the same as saying it's dumb for media to *not* reflect it. To say it's acceptable to enter is not the same as your utter raving lunacy about disallowing it from not being in.
Yet is it having scruples to try and frame not being able to have all Escapism contain [current year] politics as somehow being part of the problem?
 

lil devils x

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I'm accepting you said at least one thing true. We're seeing different realities.

This, however, is not true. George Floyd's death dominated the public conscience before the first protest. The protest dominated the public conscience before the looting started. Hell, freaking Kaepernik taking a knee rocked the nation. What reality do you live in where protests are "ignored as usual"?
So acknowledged and making no long term changes is somehow not being ignored as usual? We are so far beyond time for talking about it already...
Everything I stated above is true. You have to have blinders on to see a different reality here. " Ignored as usual" = another unarmed black person targeted, abused or killed by police tomorrow and no one arresting the police officer for it. If that is still happening, it is still being ignored.

What's being done about Breonna Taylor's murder? They have been protesting that too.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Because seeing it in context of where it came from might change how people view it.
Why? Why would saying it came from Moviebob make any difference whatsoever?


Oh I did something with the response.
Ignoring it to ask dishonest questions that doesn't actually have anything to do with it doesn't count

Yet is it having scruples to try and frame not being able to have all Escapism contain [current year] politics as somehow being part of the problem?
When did you do that? You sure get up to a lot of nonsense
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Dwarvenhobble

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Questions: Why no mention of the first line in that tweet? And why assume that "militia extremists" means "leftists"?
True it could be either. Though generally Anarchists (at least the twitter kind) seem to also be Communists too or something or run with them.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Focus your discussion on the arguments being made, not on the person making them.
Questions: Why no mention of the first line in that tweet? And why assume that "militia extremists" means "leftists"?
Take a quick look at the kind of engagement this guy does. We went from me suggesting that protests should be visible and hard to ignore to him asking nonsense like "Are people not allowed escapism?" He's concern trolling everyone lol
 
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IceForce

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Take a quick look at the kind of engagement this guy does. We went from me suggesting that protests should be visible and hard to ignore to him asking nonsense like "Are people not allowed escapism?" He's concern trolling everyone lol
This should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with the name "Kodu"
 

SupahEwok

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Surprise, it’s all bullshit. They just want to torture protesters.
Haven't people been handwringing on these forums for years about how Trump doesn't read intelligence reports?
 

Revnak

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Haven't people been handwringing on these forums for years about how Trump doesn't read intelligence reports?
I mean yeah, but whoever told him Antifa was a word does.
 

SupahEwok

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I mean yeah, but whoever told him Antifa was a word does.
He knows Antifa from Fox News and his Twitter feed, the only intelligence sources he takes into consideration for his decisions.
 

Terminal Blue

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The number of human remains that show evidence of death via weapon beg to differ. I'd also ask our other human species about that, but they're not around anymore to speak for themselves.
Sure, you can find plenty of evidence of violence in prehistoric humans pretty much going back to the origins of our species, homo sapiens, but homo sapiens aren't just physically modern humans, they're behaviourally modern humans. Early homo sapiens may have lacked some of our capacity for language and abstract thought, but they were absolutely nothing like animals. They lived in a complex society where they could share ideas, not just through proto-language but also through art. A lot of the earliest evidence we find for violence or "warfare" between human groups is from artistic depictions, not evidence of injury. It's also worth noting that there's enormous evidence for widespread exchange and trade among early homo sapiens as well as violence.

Early homo sapiens were not inherently violent, they were inherently clever. They were perfectly capable of either cooperating or competing, and of weighing up and choosing which strategy to follow. That is why they were the most successful creatures on the planet, their intelligence and complex social organisation made them limitlessly adaptable.

But earlier humans were more instinctive, they were more like animals, and these early humans show very little evidence of violence, certainly no evidence of organised warfare between bands. Had early humans been driven by instinct to fight each other because of "tribalism" or dominance, they wouldn't have survived the paleolithic because, even without our behaviourally modern intelligence, humans are one of the most deadly animals on the planet.
 

Satinavian

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The police force makes for an obviously attractive career route for people who enjoy hurting, bullying and pushing around others. Theoretically, police recruitment should be filtering those people out.
Aside from potentially recruiting the wrong people there are training deficits as well.

Just came around an article from Switzerland stating that the average US training for policemen is just 19 weeks. And much of that is used for weapon use and self defence technices with only 8 hour of deescalation in total.

Just for comparison. In Germany the average training takes two and a half years and for all higher ranks two to four additional years at certain colleges.
 

Thaluikhain

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Aside from potentially recruiting the wrong people there are training deficits as well.

Just came around an article from Switzerland stating that the average US training for policemen is just 19 weeks. And much of that is used for weapon use and self defence technices with only 8 hour of deescalation in total.

Just for comparison. In Germany the average training takes two and a half years and for all higher ranks two to four additional years at certain colleges.
In Miami, SWAT training is just 3 weeks (I think with weekends off), though you have to have been a police officer for some time before that.
 

Agema

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On the subject of phrasing and framing, my pet peeve of the day is the word "but". You watch the news, and you get any number of people saying "I support the protesters BUT I condemn rioting." Then you check online and get people saying "I'm against violence BUT I support the protesters." Both ways you say it, it implies one of those things opposes the other, as though someone shouldn't be expected to have both those opinions.

It's like everyone woke up and forgot the word "and" exists. "I support the protesters and I condemn the rioting." It's not that hard.
What people mean by "I'm against violence" is nearly always "I'm against violence without sufficient justification". Sufficient justification, obviously, is a matter of considerable subjective variation.

There are some genuine absolute pacifists out there, but they are extremely few in number.

I think we often have a poor idea of what violence is. There's a sort of dull, societal expectation to condemn violence as uncivilised, when I think a more nuanced view is to consider some violence to be an intrinsic part of society and power structures. The police, for instance, are inherently a violent organisation, which is not a problem for most of the population most of the time. We want them to be, so that they can catch criminals. It's also useful to see violence as the predictable result of all manner of social interactions. A riot is a potentially important tool for some people to express their dissatisfaction, when they are frequently highly deficient in political, economic and social power, and they are going to occur when dissatisfaction gets high enough. Of course riots tend to be abhorred by the comfortable middle class - they're not exposed to the same problems, they have more ability to cause change, and they benefit a great deal more from the existing operating of society: a riot is an expression of power challenging theirs.
 
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