National Guard called into Minneapolis

[Revnak]

I mean, what is the purpose of looting here? On the face of it it does not sound like it's a principled thing or someone who is an ally to the cause so much as someone who saw an opportunity. I just don't really care to focus on them since it does feel like a distraction.

Some people don’t believe in private property. Some people are desperate. I know a guy where both were fairly true. He grabbed some coffee and earbuds from multi-national corporations. It varies. They’re not the problem though, and throwing them to the wolves is shooting any attempt to stop what’s coming in the foot.
Edit- I’ll add, I also don’t think the focus on it by media is warranted, as the human suffering (and property damage in many cases, more property has been seized by police this year than has been lost to protests, though that may change) being inflicted by the police is far more extensive and important. The focus on “rioting” is meant to give police a force to be morally balanced against, so the center can feel justified in abandoning any responsibility for action. It is a distraction. Personally, even at a protest turned riot, I have zero intention of damaging property not belonging to the police due to this optics concern, though I won’t condemn those who do.
Edit2- I say all that despite a strong rejection of private property. I think the tactical reasons are good enough.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

The problem is the cops

All cops, or just some?

Also a problem.

Rioters who just burned down the stores people rely on to get their food.

Rioters who burned down the Pharmacy people get their medicine from

Looters who attacked a bar and killed the Black owner of a shop.

Rioters who burned down the post office people rely on for their mail

Or are they not an issue in the eyes of those "On the right side of history" or are they just "Acceptable collateral damage" for the revolution?

So you would not march with the (Maoist Revolutionary anti-cop) Panthers? Thanks. They’re my heroes. Glad I can disregard you now.

I doubt even the Panthers would happily just shoot a random cop as some perceived revenge

Literally nobody looks up anything on this grifting shit before believing him, huh? Mayday Cider Riots, his video of him joking around with the Proud Boys before they attacked people is what got them in legal trouble, video he would not release until forced and publicly lied about to protect them.

So talking to potential sources is bad as a journalist now?

Seriously that's it? That's what's being used to paint him as a terrible person?

How is it rectifying the system to have the same cops do break rules following near identical training but we did an investigation? How is the system changed by doing fuck all, again, and lying that we’re better so Suburban liberals can sleep at night?

Except they're not the same cops. They're different cops each time. You only see them as the same person time and time again for some reason.

You grant so much empathy to the cops brutalizing the public, murdering innocents, and getting away with it,

Let me stop you right there.

I have been very clear so I'll say this is bigger text because clearly it's not getting through.

I do NOT support COPs abusing their position deliberately or acting out of SPITE.

I DO support COPS being given at least what should be some basic level of understanding when looking at their actions and not calling them monsters because from the Angle a camera filmed an activity we saw more of the picture than what an officer would before they had to make their decision.

but call those who have become so utterly furious at this reality false actors, greedy rioters, or delusional.

Then stop burning peoples communities.

Stop thinking that the revolution happening is worth the price of ruined lives and dead bodies.

Stop and think.

The cops are scared and poorly trained, the people cannot be afraid, they cannot be angry.

Being angry isn't the problem. How it's expressed is.

The violence of the state is as natural as the air, the violence of the people created by the delusional or by conspiracy.

Really channelling your inner Daenerys Targaryen there aren't you?

You are lying. Perhaps not knowingly, but actually. Your understanding, your framing of society is deceptive.

What if yours is?

The police did this. Perhaps, yes, as a natural expression of the system,

Except it's not a natural expression of the system or it would be far too common.
What do you believe the Old Gods of the system need a blood sacrifice every so often or something and that justifies why this isn't a common occurrence with every arrest. We only hear when arrests go wrong not when they go fine.

but so to must we communicate the error of that system, in the direct, predictable way. Sometimes that is protest, and sometimes that will be property damage.

Then when if it's the system that is the issue do resources people need not part of that aspect of the system get targeted?

Often that will be damage to police property. But if we are to assume that the violence of the police is an inevitable expression of this system, then so too is the “violence” (I hesitate to call the majority of property damage violence, and will never equate it to permanent injury or death) against it an inevitable expression of how wrong that system is.

If your property damage leads to a persons death is that not violence?
Police Violence exists on many levels some of it needed because they use violence to protect innocent people from Violence. If police kill and active shooter they are saving others lives. If police do an armed raid against say a terrorist cell they are saving innocent lives through their use of violence.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Some people don’t believe in private property. Some people are desperate. I know a guy where both were fairly true. He grabbed some coffee and earbuds from multi-national corporations. It varies. They’re not the problem though, and throwing them to the wolves is shooting any attempt to stop what’s coming in the foot.
Edit- I’ll add, I also don’t think the focus on it by media is warranted, as the human suffering (and property damage in many cases, more property has been seized by police this year than has been lost to protests, though that may change) being inflicted by the police is far more extensive and important. The focus on “rioting” is meant to give police a force to be morally balanced against, so the center can feel justified in abandoning any responsibility for action. It is a distraction. Personally, even at a protest turned riot, I have zero intention of damaging property not belonging to the police due to this optics concern, though I won’t condemn those who do.
Edit2- I say all that despite a strong rejection of private property. I think the tactical reasons are good enough.

Fair enough. I don't think it's worth making them a large issue, understand particularly small businesses defending from them and such, but a lot of it does feel like a distraction from the main point about the police and yeah, feels like it's partly done to justify police behavior which is the far more concerning and persistent problem. I can't say I approve of them when they can be hurting people who are not part of the problem (though no sympathy for big companies etc), but yeah, I can understand avoiding people trying to make the riot part the problem when that will pass with time instead of focusing on the police issue which is systemic and more the long term thing.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

A reminder of what less than lethal means.

The more correct term is "less-lethal", as these weapons are less-reliably lethal than regular bullets, but can still be when misused, overused or just through bad luck. Unfortunately some police departments seem to think that anything shy of lethal ammunition is a substitute for actual policing techniques like de-escalation.

 

[Revnak]

Fair enough. I don't think it's worth making them a large issue, understand particularly small businesses defending from them and such, but a lot of it does feel like a distraction from the main point about the police and yeah, feels like it's partly done to justify police behavior which is the far more concerning and persistent problem. I can't say I approve of them when they can be hurting people who are not part of the problem (though no sympathy for big companies etc), but yeah, I can understand avoiding people trying to make the riot part the problem when that will pass with time instead of focusing on the police issue which is systemic and more the long term thing.

Glad to agree on... well all of this it looks like. I’m certainly no fan of damaging small businesses. Kinda wish I’d stuck around at the riot I was at to defend one that apparently got smashed, but I had no hood and had zero desire to taste tear gas twice.
Edit- defend in this case would’ve amounted to saying “yo, not cool, they’re local” because people basically leave it alone if somebody stands there and does that.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Glad to agree on... well all of this it looks like. I’m certainly no fan of damaging small businesses. Kinda wish I’d stuck around at the riot I was at to defend one that apparently got smashed, but I had no hood and had zero desire to taste tear gas twice.
Edit- defend in this case would’ve amounted to saying “yo, not cool, they’re local” because people basically leave it alone if somebody stands there and does that.

Yeh, my city has nothing like riot level going on, smaller gatherings sometimes, no protestors vs cops thing going on. Don't in fact know how that goes, but good to hear that people will listen to stuff like that

 

[Revnak]

Yeh, my city has nothing like riot level going on, smaller gatherings sometimes, no protestors vs cops thing going on. Don't in fact know how that goes, but good to hear that people will listen to stuff like that

Crowds are honestly pretty safe, ngl. I prefer the mob to cold order. It’s full of normal people who mostly just wanna live and let live. Never felt I was in any danger really, even with a lot of people angry. People aren’t particularly violent until someone gives them a license to be.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Some people don’t believe in private property. Some people are desperate. I know a guy where both were fairly true. He grabbed some coffee and earbuds from multi-national corporations. It varies. They’re not the problem though, and throwing them to the wolves is shooting any attempt to stop what’s coming in the foot.
Edit- I’ll add, I also don’t think the focus on it by media is warranted, as the human suffering (and property damage in many cases, more property has been seized by police this year than has been lost to protests, though that may change) being inflicted by the police is far more extensive and important. The focus on “rioting” is meant to give police a force to be morally balanced against, so the center can feel justified in abandoning any responsibility for action. It is a distraction. Personally, even at a protest turned riot, I have zero intention of damaging property not belonging to the police due to this optics concern, though I won’t condemn those who do.
Edit2- I say all that despite a strong rejection of private property. I think the tactical reasons are good enough.

Ah Anarcho-communism? Or bolshevikian (SP?)


Fighting for people to have access to the necessities of Coffee and decent earphones.

The focus from the media is warranted because of the present laws ans structure of society. Because of the impact it can have on people not just multinational corporations insurance premiums.

More may be seized by the police but if all property is theft then the Police merely made sure it was no longer property. In reality Police seizure often are evidence or related to proceeds of crime which then are sold on to try and either help good causes or pay back the victims some of what they lost. Or it's illegal goods that could be harmful to innocent people or items that were at their time being used to harm or put at risk innocent people.

 

[Revnak]

Greek anarchists are powerful

 

[Terminal Blue]

You originally stated "For the vast majority of human (well, hominid) history, there is little to no evidence that humans fought each other at all."

And I remain correct.

If we're talking about the ancestral environment, then we aren't talking about homo sapiens. We're talking about earlier hominids such as homo erectus, who existed on this planet for at least 5 times longer than homo sapiens.

Pre-agriculture is a weird concept because there's no clear line between hunter gathering and agriculture, but I didn't talk about agriculture anyway. I didn't even claim violence was unheard of before the establishment of settlements (which homo sapiens have been doing pretty much from day one). However, there is a point in human evolution at which we start to find evidence of inter-group violence, and before that there is no such evidence. This strongly suggests that "tribalism" and inter group violence is not an inherent feature of human beings. It is not some ancient legacy from our animal past, it is not an instinct, it is a learned social behaviour which humans engaged in because it secured them an advantage.

I'd say it's only because of our intelligence that humans are so deadly.

It's common to think of humans as physically degenerate apes who rely completely on intelligence, but humans actually have some huge physical advantages. Humans are incredible at throwing, for example, partly because of our kinaesthetic intelligence, but also because our bodies are just mechanically designed for it in a way no other primate is. All the fancy tools in the world wouldn't have done anything without the physical dexterity to use them, and humans may lack strength, but they have physical dexterity in spades.

But if we're arguing whether humans are inherently violent, that's another matter. I've seen arguments for and against, and I can't really take any side.

I think it's missing the point.

I mean, what I said is true, organised conflict or group rivalry or "tribalism" is a thing that probably didn't exist at one point in human development, but at this point any characteristics inherent to humans are completely eclipsed by human intelligence, and have been for a long long time. From the very beginning, homo sapiens could choose whether to fight or cooperate with others based on the situation and their own individual thought processes and group culture. They weren't limited to a single strategy or evolutionary imperative.

This kind of pop-sociobiology often tries to present humans as werewolves, as superficially intelligent beings who are, in fact, driven and guided by deep animalistic rage. It's true that being human can be confusing, and sometimes you don't feel in control of yourself, but that's not because of your brutish tribal instinct, it's because you are a complex, social, emotional being with a lifetimes worth of learned information. Whether it feels that way or not, you can entirely control whether you are racist, or whether you are violent, and if you (hypothetical you here) are these things, it is likely because you have weighed up the situation and decided that it benefits you in some way, even if that process wasn't conscious. That's what humans do, they learn and adapt. It's their most distinctive evolutionary feature by far.

 

[Hawki]

I didn't even claim violence was unheard of before the establishment of settlements (which homo sapiens have been doing pretty much from day one).

How are you defining settlements? Because I don't think cities arose until the Agricultural Revolution. And while I'm certain villages existed, since day 1? Really? I'm not sure if a small tribe gathered around the fire with minimal shelter, or huddling in a cave, constitutes a "settlement."

It's common to think of humans as physically degenerate apes who rely completely on intelligence, but humans actually have some huge physical advantages. Humans are incredible at throwing, for example, partly because of our kinaesthetic intelligence, but also because our bodies are just mechanically designed for it in a way no other primate is. All the fancy tools in the world wouldn't have done anything without the physical dexterity to use them, and humans may lack strength, but they have physical dexterity in spades.

Yeah, except we need our intelligence to furnish those tools in the first place.

Okay, sure, humans have some specific physical traits that give us an advantage. For instance, our ability to sweat allows us to pace ourselves over long distances, so at least in Africa, it is/was common for hunters to track prey until it simply collapsed from exhaustion, even if said prey can outpace us in the short term. But overall, I'd still say our intelligence is our main asset, and intelligence does come with caveats. Again, the human brain needs a lot of energy (see: food) to function, and human babies are incredibly helpless compared to other animals.

Whether it feels that way or not, you can entirely control whether you are racist,

Really depends which definition of racism you're using there (there's at least three that I know of), but even under the 'classical definition,' that's debatable, at least if we consider in-group/out-group bias as being synonymous. Babies as young as six months have been observed to favour people who look like them in bias tests.

or whether you are violent, and if you (hypothetical you here) are these things, it is likely because you have weighed up the situation and decided that it benefits you in some way, even if that process wasn't conscious.

It really depends.

There was a doco I saw years ago that measured human personality types. Most of our types cluster around the centre, so to speak, but there's some individuals that show natural tendencies towards violence, or at least, find it much harder to control anger, regardless of any variance in upbringing. It's your nature vs. nurture debate, but while plenty of evidence supports the nurture side of the equation (e.g. children who experience domestic violence are more likely to inflict domestic violence, but nature plays a role as well.

Again, not excusing racism or violence, but on some level, these behaviours, or at least their markers, seem to be pre-ingrained.

 

[lil devils x]

The Women's March accomplished nothing because it was never meant to. It's a collective middle finger to the March for Life and Donald Trump, it has no specific goal.

The fact that you actually believe that to be true is only proving my point for me. The women's March actually serves a purpose here and the fact you don't know what that is shows their peaceful protests did nothing to effect the changes they are protesting for. Here let me help you a bit:

Women’s March: Protesters fight for healthcare access, reproductive health

Fears that the new White House administration will limit Americans’ access to healthcare inspired many physicians and healthcare advocates to join thousands of protesters and take to the streets Saturday as part of the Women’s March on Washington.

www.fiercehealthcare.com

They are marching to protect access to women's health, as the same clinics Republicans have defunded and closed are also often the ONLY places that women can receive affordable birth control, pap smears, cancer screenings, STI treatment and exams. Many women are being denied access to these basic things now due to the GOP agenda. I seriously hope you don't think that people are pissed at the GOP because they don't like them. People don't like them and are pissed at the GOP because they are causing a direct harmful impact on their lives here. The GOP agenda directly results in the death and suffering of millions of Americans. That is 100% of the problem here.

And btw, you STILL did not address why Breonna Taylors murder isn't having anything done about it. If cops busted into your home with a no knock warrant and murdered your family in the middle of the night for an arrest warrant for a person who lived 10 miles away, AND was already in police custody at the time of the raid, then tried to smear your name for their error even though there were no drugs in your home instead of arrest the people responsible and months go by with peaceful protests and still no arrests made, would you still believe they work? BreonnaTaylor was one of our first responders risking her life on the front lines to save others and yet not even she can receive justice for her murder. The 'suspicious packages' she received in the mail were clothes and shoes. Why has no one been arrested after months of peaceful protests, but they light the place up after Floyd's murder and his killers are arrested and charged within days?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/03/no-knock-warrant-breonna-taylor-was-illegal/

Federal lawsuit calls officer in Breonna Taylor shooting a 'dirty cop' with a 'vendetta'

Brett Hankison is one of three Louisville police officers on administrative reassignment during an investigation into Breonna Taylor's death.

www.usatoday.com

 

[lil devils x]

All cops, or just some?

It is a systemic problem that enables and protects targeting, abuse and violence against the communities by police that is the core problem here. The system is bad and needs to be changed, The vetting process and police requirements are bad and needs to be changed. The training is poor and needs to be changed, The police union and their blue wall of silence protects criminal cops and needs to be changed. How police serve and protect the community is broken and needs to be changed from how they interact with the community to their actual protocol and procedures is what actually needs to be changed here to keep both officers and those they serve and protect safer as the current system is broken on so many levels it has to be rebuilt from the ground up in order to actually address and resolve this adequately.

 

[Gordon_4]

Apparently the White House press secretary saw fit to compare President Trump visiting the church in Lafayette Park that had been burned to Winston Churchill visiting a part of London that had been bombed by the Luftwaffe during the Blitz.

I have no idea how to process that she could say that with a straight face.

 

[lil devils x]

Apparently the White House press secretary saw fit to compare President Trump visiting the church in Lafayette Park that had been burned to Winston Churchill visiting a part of London that had been bombed by the Luftwaffe during the Blitz.

I have no idea how to process that she could say that with a straight face.

Meanwhile we have generals and presidents lining up against him in opposition:

Former Defense Secretary Mattis levels extraordinary criticism of Trump

Former Defense chief James N. Mattis denounces Trump while current Secretary Mark Esper says he opposes use of active-duty military to contain protests.

www.latimes.com

Esper Breaks With Trump on Using Troops Against Protesters (Published 2020)

Mark Esper’s comments reflected the turmoil within the military over President Trump, who has said he could put active-duty troops on the streets to perform law enforcement functions.

www.nytimes.com

Senior military leaders being called to testify to Congress about George Floyd protest response

Lawmakers want explanations from top defense officials about how troops will be used and why active-duty forces are being deployed.

www.militarytimes.com

Following Obama, Clinton and Bush, former president Jimmy Carter issues a statement on George Floyd protests

Jimmy Carter is the last living former president to issue a statement in the wake of George Floyd's death and subsequent protests, following Obama, Bush and Clinton.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Thaluikhain]

Apparently the White House press secretary saw fit to compare President Trump visiting the church in Lafayette Park that had been burned to Winston Churchill visiting a part of London that had been bombed by the Luftwaffe during the Blitz.

I have no idea how to process that she could say that with a straight face.

In fairness, there are Nazis running around...

 

[Agema]

I mean, what is the purpose of looting here? On the face of it it does not sound like it's a principled thing or someone who is an ally to the cause so much as someone who saw an opportunity. I just don't really care to focus on them since it does feel like a distraction.

Looting accompanies disorderly protests often not because of the protestors themselves, but because criminals know the police are likely to be distracted dealing with the protestors and will not respond when they start breaking into places and stealing.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

LEOPOLD DEA Memo George Floyd Protests Surveillance

www.documentcloud.org

The DEA is angling to spy on protesters to help the cops.

 

[lil devils x]

Looting accompanies disorderly protests often not because of the protestors themselves, but because criminals know the police are likely to be distracted dealing with the protestors and will not respond when they start breaking into places and stealing.

And as we have seen with the organized criminals, they have someone start fires in other parts of the city and then they show up with multiple vehicles and duffel bags and clear out stores, by the time the police arrive to one store, they are already looting a different one in another area. From some of the footage I saw, it looked like some of the same people with different vehicles so they had someone else unloading their loot from the last haul while they are filling up more vehicles. They were able to do an extreme amount of damage this way due to the police being too spread out and taxed to be able to do much about it as there was no way for them to be everywhere at once. This is in addition to many police departments having records amounts of people out and being extremely short handed to begin with due to the pandemic.

Coronavirus Has Changed Everything for Police Across the Country

The pandemic has altered the nature of policing as officers avoid physical contact with the public, check themselves for symptoms while on long breaks and sometimes need to grieve for colleagues who have died from the virus.

www.wsj.com

As NYPD faces new challenges, three more members die of COVID-19 | amNewYork

Even as the number of NYPD members reporting sick continues to drop, the department suffered yet three more deaths - a total of 41 members have died from

www.amny.com

Latest on COVID-19 in MN: 996 dead; intensive care cases rise

The newest numbers come as health officials expect a spike in cases stemming from the protests over George Floyd’s death.

www.mprnews.org

Virus’s Toll on N.Y. Police: 1 in 6 Officers Is Out Sick (Published 2020)

“It’s a worst-case scenario across the board,” one sergeant said. The virus has strained the Police Department even as it has been asked to help enforce rules to slow its spread.

www.nytimes.com

LAPD training academy outbreak: 17 recruits infected with coronavirus

An outbreak at the LAPD training center has seen 17 trainee officers and jailers infected with the coronavirus, and officials are now implementing weekly testing.

www.latimes.com

 

[Sneed's SeednFeed]

Isn't this from the same report that says that other Black Bloc groups however may have been involved?

I don't know where you got that from but at least you're now discerning antifa is not a group. Maybe the next step is asking how a dude in a car with an incendiary is antifa and why would someone claim so without any corroborating evidence.