Neil Druckman tries to mobilise TLOU 2 fans to vote for it for player choice in The Game Awards Player vote category

Houseman

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It would be super handy if you could get it settled in your head that what is considered appropriate in a Japanese game is not always going to align with the rest of the world.
Oh, sorry, I didn't know that Art must be restricted to certain locales. That's why the USA doesn't have any foreign films from France or Japan or Korea or Hong Kong or China, or yeah no you see how that's stupid, right?

Certain people don't want diversity in their "art". We can see clearly who that is.
 

stroopwafel

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I'd vote for it as game of the year. One of the few games with a story that actually isn't boring. Gameplay is kinda 'last gen' but still lots of fun. Absolutely stellar production values with graphics I didn't know the PS4 was capable of. Excellently paced. A meaty adventure that doesn't overstay it's welcome. Good variety of character drama and environmental storytelling. Fantastic sound design and ambient music. Games are way too long nowadays and with most I lose my motivation to keep playing but TLOU2 kept me enaged from start to finish.
 
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Hades

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I wouldn't be opposed to TLOU2 getting some awards. The production values alone already do enough to impress to some extend.

However I would argue it wouldn't deserve a reward for storytelling. Its very much a story that was told a decade too late. The game seems to think its message of ''Revenge is bad m'kay'' to be really important but ''revenge is bad m'kay'' has been an incredibly common message in just about every medium. Standards revenge stories may be cliche these days but we reached a part where ''revenge is bad m'kay'' is an equally cliche message.

And that would be fine of the game didn't seem so overly proud of its highly conventional theme.
 

Casual Shinji

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I wouldn't be opposed to TLOU2 getting some awards. The production values alone already do enough to impress to some extend.

However I would argue it wouldn't deserve a reward for storytelling. Its very much a story that was told a decade too late. The game seems to think its message of ''Revenge is bad m'kay'' to be really important but ''revenge is bad m'kay'' has been an incredibly common message in just about every medium. Standards revenge stories may be cliche these days but we reached a part where ''revenge is bad m'kay'' is an equally cliche message.

And that would be fine of the game didn't seem so overly proud of its highly conventional theme.
Well, Naughty Dog has never been very original in its themes. The first Last of Us was kinda trite, too, but what made the difference there was how it told its story. Joel and Ellie formed a tremendously solid heart within a very bleak setting, and the chemistry between the two was fantastic. I said it before in the TLOU2 thread, but Naughty Dog's biggest strength is that particular charm that they put in their games that gives them that likeability, and TLoU2 just doesn't have any of that. Even with the pretty shallow message of 'look how bad it is when you do bad things', we still could've gotten some entertaining characters and companionships out of it, but we didn't. Everyone is mopey, scowly, and boring, with the exception maybe of Lev and Yara.

And the thing about the production values is that I can't even appreaciate that, because the visuals are so ugly and boring. Everything looks drab and gray, when the first game created that very nice contrast between lush, beautiful nature and the ruins of society. But in Part 2 even nature is just bland now.
 
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Avnger

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Oh so the only legitimate criticism come from the right approved people and not those filthy peasants who are so unrefined.
Funny because I think it was here before during the arguments about Abby that some-one was labelling Liana K's videos "Incel properganda"

It all gets conflated unless it's the approved parties saying it in the end. Doesn't matter it was actually people who had been looking forward to TLOU2 and hyping it up who ultimately sent the threats to certain voice actors. No it was the Gamers sceptical about the game from the offset who were framed as responsible.
No one said anything about "approved people." It seems you have some baggage to unpack though, so feel free to keep up the rant.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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I wouldn't be opposed to TLOU2 getting some awards. The production values alone already do enough to impress to some extend.

However I would argue it wouldn't deserve a reward for storytelling. Its very much a story that was told a decade too late. The game seems to think its message of ''Revenge is bad m'kay'' to be really important but ''revenge is bad m'kay'' has been an incredibly common message in just about every medium. Standards revenge stories may be cliche these days but we reached a part where ''revenge is bad m'kay'' is an equally cliche message.

And that would be fine of the game didn't seem so overly proud of its highly conventional theme.
Is there even a movie, game, show, etc. that is 100% ok with the moral superiority of revenge? Only thing I can think of is Kill Bill.
 
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Casual Shinji

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I think it does but we don't get nearly enough of it. The best part of the game is arguably the first arrival to Seattle with Ellie and Dina, both because it is pretty colorful and uses lightning in a wonderful way to send you across that small slice of open world and because Ellie and Dina have that ND signature relationship and banter. In that short (like 2 hours?) sequence we get to know a lot about both characters and their relation to one another. But then Dina remains in the theater and you get a long solo trek as Ellie, followed by a brief sequence with Jesse. Abbie's story is also mostly alone and it improves a lot once Lev and Yara start sticking around with her.

You'd have thought that ND would have understood that the emotional core of their games has always been their NPCs, as they allow deeper characterization of the PC and are effective tools for setting the tone and expanding the lore. TLOU2 seems to have forgotten that considering how often it left the PC alone.
Well, you're gonna hate me, but that was my most disliked part of the game, after Nora's torture and follow-up scene. It felt so ill-fitting to put a (romantic) character bonding section with such a casual tone right after the brutal and traumatizing death of a main character. It's been maybe ten minutes since was saw Joel's mangled skull and heard Ellie's choked pleas, and the game decides to follow that up with some relaxed horse riding and typical Naughty Dog banter. As if we've just moved on from that for now. It also doesn't help in putting us in Ellie's single minded drive for vengeance. I mean, that's a very nice rendition of 'Take on Me' and Ashley Johnson sings it with a charming uncertainty, but if she's able to sing a romantic song for her girlfriend for 3 uninterrupted minutes, why can't she then also realize that she's risking Dina's life and just go home? It's like Naughty Dog wants to kick the shock factor into an unprecedented high gear, but still employ the usual Naughty Dog brand fluffy banter. And for me this was agressively ineffective.

The other issue I have with that section is that there's a lot of telling us how the characters feel for eachother, rather than showing it. A lot of 'hey babe' and 'you're my favourite', which obviously is what two people in love would say to eachother, but here it just feels like the game trying to remind us that these two are a couple. I just don't feel the chemistry between these two, and I don't know if it's strictly due to the writing, or because the two actors just didn't connect well enough on stage. I felt much greater chemistry between Ellie and Riley in the DLC. And a reason for that might be because there we get to see their friendship blossom into a romance. In TLoU2 we're dropped right on the edge of Ellie and Dina going from best friends to lovers without seeing the inciting moment, or getting a proper idea of how they were as besties, and to me as an audience member it made me feel left out of "the feels", so to speak. The first time we see them being intimate with eachother also feels lacking, because I can't gage what this means for both these characters to actually take this step with one another, because I just don't know their history together. I think the one time I really felt any sort of connection between Ellie and Dina (early on anyway) is right after they've done the deed and are sharing battle scar stories. Maybe because Ellie isn't so mopey there, and because it's one of the way too few moments where Ellie and Dina are getting to know eachother. Like, it's fun to see Ellie react to how Dina got her skateboard scar, and see Dina feel like she's getting prankted by Ellie when she reveals her zombie bite.

Sorrry for poo-pooing so much on a section of the game you liked. :)
 

Casual Shinji

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Is there even a movie, game, show, etc. that is 100% ok with the moral superiority of revenge? Only thing I can think of is Kill Bill.
Mandy?

Though considering how it ends it certainly doesn't leave the viewer with a sense that the protagonist is going to pick his life back up.

Anyway, I just wanted to bring up Mandy because it fucking rules, and everybody should go see (again).
 
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Johnny Novgorod

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Mandy?

Though considering how it ends it certainly doesn't leave the viewer with a sense that the protagonist is going to pick his life back up.

Anyway, I just wanted to bring up Mandy because it fucking rules, and everybody should go see (again).
Mandy is awesome.
As to what it thinks about revenge, Nic Cage progressively cladding himself with the gear of the people that killed Mandy as he kills them felt like commentary.
 

Casual Shinji

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Is all good man, you definitely have a point in that it is a jarring change of pace coming in hot on the heels of Joel's murder. The primary reason I liked it was because it was such a good concept for a gameplay section, taking the ND banter and world building and setting it loose on a open area that allowed for exploration but was also distinctly a "Naughty Dog puzzle area". I mean, I never really cared for Ellie/Dina but then I never really cared for Ellie in this game at all. I guess that's a weird thing to say considering I already said I liked the game. I just figured rather early on that Ellie wasn't a very sympathetic character in TLOU2 and I could totally see why she'd act the way she does. I just chalked most of Ellie's actions and lack of genuine affection towards Dina up to Ellie being traumatized and thus unable to properly feel/show those emotions (which makes sense, since she's a lot more genuine in the prologue section).

I was actually kind of sad that the game didn't contain more areas like that, because it was such a nice set-up. Instead we got more traditional ND levels, which aren't bad but lacked that sense of place that the first Seattle area had. Except the infested skyscraper, that area was also ace but for entirely different reasons.
Yeah, the skyscraper was pretty great. The whole infestation wrecking the interior structure, together with the wall-fused zombies made me wish they'd put more focus on doing creative stuff like that with the infected. I really liked that you could tell that a zombie'd come out of the wall if there was colour to their clothes - good way of putting the player on edge, similar to the mimics in Dark Souls.
 

Casual Shinji

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Mandy is awesome.
As to what it thinks about revenge, Nic Cage progressively cladding himself with the gear of the people that killed Mandy as he kills them felt like commentary.
That and him pretty much having an inhumane voice by the end, and looking like a man made of blood.

Apparently he based his performance on Jason Voorhees.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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No one said anything about "approved people." It seems you have some baggage to unpack though, so feel free to keep up the rant.
No you don't have to. You made it pretty clear only "approved people" making the criticism was allowed. Anyone else even saying the same stuff is secretly a Nazi in disguise trying to destroy the games because lesbians.


I think you can't even make a convincing argument for a fake controversy over a single deleted tweet about a videogame, let alone about mass fraud in US elections.
yet the only counter argument is to ignore that he was trying to make this about fighting "The Haters" not about celebrating the game.


Is there even a movie, game, show, etc. that is 100% ok with the moral superiority of revenge? Only thing I can think of is Kill Bill.
Basically any of the "Rape revenge" films. Such as I Spit on your Grave film series or similar.
 

FakeSympathy

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Welp, looks like the results are in; And GoT won!
Neil is actually congulating Sucker Punch, although I'm not sure whether it's intentional or half-assed

If you read through the comments of the annoucement itself, you will see some people arguing SP should not accept this award, as the voting system as been "rigged by angry alt-right"
 
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Gyrobot

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Well you can't win them all and that is okay by me. Its not like some obscure weeb game on the Switch won.
 

Trunkage

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If you read through the comments of the annoucement itself, you will see some people arguing SP should not accept this award, as the voting system as been "rigged by angry alt-right"
Wait, didn't they hack the system and voted heaps for GoT?