Netflix Cuties becomes the next piece in an ever more idiotic culture war

[Houseman]

Remember when this thread was about a movie?

 

[Terminal Blue]

Okay just to be clear, what I am referring to as " sexy" is not necessarily what a guy would. To a girl, when we talk about dancing "sexy", it isn't about how someone else observes us, but how it makes us feel.

I think this is something that's really ignored in the whole "debate" about child sexualization.

Children (unless something has gone very wrong in their lives) don't understand adult sexuality, but they do understand that adult sexuality exists and obviously, like any part of the adult world, they want to play around with it. Children should be allowed to play. The responsibility isn't on them not to be "sexy", the responsibility is on adults (who do understand adult sexuality) to let them play in peace and not exploit them. Sure, paedophiles will always exist and preparing children to face the real danger of sexual predators is a good thing, but to live in a world where being sexy is an important and aspirational part of femininity and a huge part what our society explicitly values about women and then to expect children who are becoming women themselves to just ignore that because it sometimes makes us feel uncomfortable is an extreme misplacement of blame.

And don't get me wrong, I think there are a lot of things wrong with that society and how it raises women, but there are far, far more problems with how our society raises men. The fact that we can't expect men to control themselves even around literal children is a very significant symptom of that.

 

[lil devils x]

Remember when this thread was about a movie?

It still is, the movie is specifically about "what it is like for girls to pass through that difficult awkward stage of their life between being a child and a woman" and that is what we are discussing. Girls go through a great deal of crazy things during that time period and people are having difficulty processing them.

Whether or not it is on the girl to be forced to worry about what some guy thinks when they are just learning how to freely express themselves through dance and other means of expression. What the guys think about what the girls do is pretty irrelevant to whether or not the girls should be able to express themselves without feeling ashamed. Guys perception of what the girls do should not be imposed upon the girl, as that is their perception that is affected by their own attraction to them. Whether or not they are attracted to the girl alters their perception of said action.

 

[lil devils x]

I think this is something that's really ignored in the whole "debate" about child sexualization.

Children (unless something has gone very wrong in their lives) don't understand adult sexuality, but they do understand that adult sexuality exists and obviously, like any part of the adult world, they want to play around with it. Children should be allowed to play. The responsibility isn't on them not to be "sexy", the responsibility is on adults (who do understand adult sexuality) to let them play in peace and not exploit them. Sure, paedophiles will always exist and preparing children to face the real danger of sexual predators is a good thing, but to live in a world where being sexy is an important and aspirational part of femininity and a huge part what our society explicitly values about women and then to expect children who are becoming women themselves to just ignore that because it sometimes makes us feel uncomfortable is an extreme misplacement of blame.

And don't get me wrong, I think there are a lot of things wrong with that society and how it raises women, but there are far, far more problems with how our society raises men. The fact that we can't expect men to control themselves even around literal children is a very significant symptom of that.

That is exactly the point. Girls are literally not seeing themselves the way some are even perceiving these girls dancing here. The girls see themselves as doing a badass job pulling off the moves their idols do. They see them as " killing it" and feel great about it. They want to feel glamorous and powerful and free. They are proud of themselves for overcoming their nervousness and self consciousness to finally express themselves freely.The way guys perceive them doing that is impacted by whether or not they are attracted to them. Some guys are capable of seeing that as just dance and expression. When I see the girls dance it reminds me of when I was their age and I check out the difficulty of their routine and their dance for their age and see that they did a good job, others see that and think crazy things Like " WHORES! Cover their flesh from the PEDOPHILES! and have a brain meltdown, not realizing it is on them for thinking what they did, not the girls.

 

[Houseman]

Whether or not it is on the girl to be forced to worry about what some guy thinks when they are just learning how to freely express themselves through dance and other means of expression. What the guys think about what the girls do is pretty irrelevant to whether or not the girls should be able to express themselves without feeling ashamed. Guys perception of what the girls do should not be imposed upon the girl, as that is their perception that is affected by their own attraction to them. Whether or not they are attracted to the girl alters their perception of said action.

Does that include acts like performing a striptease for a guy in order to manipulate them?
Does that include posting one's vag on the internet?

I think you are severely mischaracterizing this movie as an innocent coming-of-age story. This is a full-on, out of control, Requiem for a Dream horror story.
You keep saying "Girls aren't seeing themselves this way", but UNDRESSING FOR A GUY IN ORDER TO MANIPULATE THEM PROVES THAT THEY SEE THEMSELVES THE WAY GUYS SEE THEM

I've said this before in posts 69 and 74.

 

[lil devils x]

Does that include acts like performing a striptease for a guy in order to manipulate them?
Does that include posting one's vag on the internet?

I think you are severely mischaracterizing this movie as an innocent coming-of-age story. This is a full-on, out of control, Requiem for a Dream horror story.
You keep saying "Girls aren't seeing themselves this way", but UNDRESSING FOR A GUY IN ORDER TO MANIPULATE THEM PROVES THAT THEY SEE THEMSELVES THE WAY GUYS SEE THEM

I've said this before in posts 69 and 74.

That is separate pressure and exploitation issues, not a dance team routine we were discussing as was the conversation sparked by a post about the dance team routine being glamorous. This movie being about what girls really go through, you are going to have to address the actual Pressure girls are under and the exploitation that takes place as well. You act like those are not things that girls experience when we come of age. We go through that and so much more. How many unsolicited dick pics are underage girls sent online? How many guys say all sorts of things to try and BS girls into talking to them privately and for longer in an attempt to gain trust?

What a girl does with a guy does not mean that EVERYTHING a girl does has anything to do with a guy at all, it actually doesn't even necessarily mean what the guy thinks it means in that very situation. If you do something for a girl, does that mean every single other thing you do in your life is for a girl too? And BTW a girl undressing for a guy does not in any way mean that they see themselves as the same way a guy sees them. You are just viewing that through a guys point of view. We actually do not see it exactly the same way, quite a bit different actually. You don't see it because you have never actually viewed anything from a girls point of view in the first place.

For a lot of girls the way they do things because they want a guy to " like them" but that does not mean they actually are ready for or want actual sex. That does not mean they understand how the guy views it. That does not mean they even understand all the feelings they are having at the time. They mix up the signals between the two because they do not understand what the guy is actually feeling and thinking. Often they feel pressured to do things because they want something different but feel that if they don't do what they are pressured to do it would interfere with what they actually want to happen. Like I said before, this is a very confusing time for girls. What you read into it doesn't mean that is what is actually happening.

It reminds me of American Beauty, His daughter's friend was a virgin, she didn't even know what sex was about but she spoke like she did to overcompensate for the fact she was actually a virgin. She knew nothing about sex and was " pretending", role playing and was obviously too emotionally immature for actual sex. Men tend to take advantage of that fragility and ignorance. That does not mean she ever thought the exact same thing he did, or that she was ready in any way for actual intercourse with her emotional instability. Mentally, she wanted attention and to be liked, loved, but that does not mean in any way that she was ready for sex or even really wanted it to begin with. She was just a confused girl going through a difficult confusing time in her life, so she isn't expected to make sense because she doesn't even understand it herself.

 

[Houseman]

This movie being about what girls really go through, you are going to have to address the actual Pressure girls are under and the exploitation that takes place as well.

Yes, that's what I want to discuss.

What it pressure that caused the protagonist to do a strip-tease or to post a pic of her genitals? Was she being exploited, or was she the one doing the exploiting?

If you do something for a girl, does that mean every single other thing you do in your life is for a girl too? And BTW a girl undressing for a guy does not in any way mean that they see themselves as the same way a guy sees them.

When it is done explicitly to manipulate a guy's behavior, yeah, I think that's exactly what it means.
"You find me sexy. I'm going to exploit that (exploit YOU), so that I can get what I want out of you (in the movie, it's a phone)"

That's the context of the scene.

 

[Wintermute]

Meh, this is the kind of movie I'd never watch otherwise, but with all this controversy... and let me tell you... holy shit, it's just a watch and forget 5/10 movie. Obviously I don't know how the mind of a pedo works, because I watched it with a "ok let's watch this movie the internet told me was made for pedophiles" mentality and it's just kids doing stupid shit and dancing. That's literally what this is. A drama where the main kid Amy is torn between the traditional values in her home and the depravity and debauchery so characteristic of the french. There's one brief scene higher on the "wtf..." scale (the "striptease" and posting nudes to instagram scene), but there's 0 graphic anything, all the other girls are pretty normal, Amy is the only one acting stupid and none of her stupid actions are portrayed as something positive.

Spoiler: spoilers for the final scene of the movie

Even their dance the end of the movie is booed by a mildly disturbed audience, which to be fair if you're a normal person you'd be more comfortable watching women doing it. Then there's a shot of her dancing outfit and the dress she's supposed to wear to her father's wedding, and she goes down the stairs, dressed like a normal girl, to play with the other kids instead. SYMBOLISM, do you get it.

I suppose one of my favorite movies is more "disturbing" depending on how you look at it.

5/10 - I don't even have the energy to talk about this nontroversy.

 

[lil devils x]

Meh, this is the kind of movie I'd never watch otherwise, but with all this controversy... and let me tell you... holy shit, it's just a watch and forget 5/10 movie. Obviously I don't know how the mind of a pedo works, because I watched it with a "ok let's watch this movie the internet told me was made for pedophiles" mentality and it's just kids doing stupid shit and dancing. That's literally what this is. A drama where the main kid Amy is torn between the traditional values in her home and the depravity and debauchery so characteristic of the french. There's one brief scene higher on the "wtf..." scale (the "striptease" and posting nudes to instagram scene), but there's 0 graphic anything, all the other girls are pretty normal, Amy is the only one acting stupid and none of her stupid actions are portrayed as something positive.

Spoiler: spoilers for the final scene of the movie

Even their dance the end of the movie is booed by a mildly disturbed audience, which to be fair if you're a normal person you'd be more comfortable watching women doing it. Then there's a shot of her dancing outfit and the dress she's supposed to wear to her father's wedding, and she goes down the stairs, dressed like a normal girl, to play with the other kids instead. SYMBOLISM, do you get it.

I suppose one of my favorite movies is more "disturbing" depending on how you look at it.

5/10 - I don't even have the energy to talk about this nontroversy.

Because apparently girls just struggling through a terribly awkward and confusing phase in their life is something that makes some people's brain's melt. LOL

 

[CM156]

Some art should not exist. Not that the law should stop it, but the artist(s) who created it must forever be held to account for inflicting their work upon us.

This falls squarely into this category.

I don't know (or really care) what French law says about this sort of thing. I'm not arguing from a legal standpoint.

Also, does anyone else remember that time 40 years ago when a bunch of French philosophers wrote an open letter petitioning for an end to age of consent laws? My mind kept going back to that, and that one French writer (Gabriel Matzneff, I think) who wrote about having sex with underage boys in the Philippines back in the 1980s but still had supporters in the literary world.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Does that include acts like performing a striptease for a guy in order to manipulate them?
Does that include posting one's vag on the internet?

Okay, let's talk about that.

Do you think an 11 year old child actually understands the sexuality of an adult man and how to manipulate it?

I mean, paedophiles think that, or at least they pretend to. Paedophiles often claim that they are the ones being seduced by their victims, and thus that their victims are fully conscious of their actions, but that's not a healthy belief, it's a rationalization of incredibly harmful behaviour.

An 11 year old child who is trying to seduce or sexually manipulate an adult is still playing. That's why the responsibility within that situation rests on the adult to establish boundaries, not on the child to implicitly understand those boundaries.

The film has a very clear perspective in this regard. The scene you're describing is the turning point between act 2 and act 3. It is the crisis of the movie, where the main character Amy hits her lowest point before resolving her issues in the third act. Amy does not "see herself the way guys see her", the point of the scene is explicitly that she does not know what she is doing. She is a child mimicking older women because she understands they have a sexual power which she wants but doesn't understand, and her lack of understanding hurts her but she recovers. That's part of growing up too. The final scene of the film is her going off to engage in innocent play with other children, because she's still a child.

Now, I made my feelings clear in the first post. I'm not averse to the argument that there are things you just shouldn't show on film, especially when real child actors are involved. But I feel the perspective of the film here is being totally misrepresented. It is a story that very explicitly asserts the value of innocence and ultimately makes very clear that children who are trying to be sexual are playing in a dangerous world they don't understand and which can sometimes hurt them, without demonizing or blaming the children themselves.

I'm also going to be honest, it also doesn't seem that horrifying. Maybe it's just my social circle, but I think a lot women can point to similar experiences, and often it doesn't even make top 5 in terms of the worst things which have happened to them.

 

[lil devils x]

Yes, that's what I want to discuss.

What it pressure that caused the protagonist to do a strip-tease or to post a pic of her genitals? Was she being exploited, or was she the one doing the exploiting?



When it is done explicitly to manipulate a guy's behavior, yeah, I think that's exactly what it means.
"You find me sexy. I'm going to exploit that (exploit YOU), so that I can get what I want out of you (in the movie, it's a phone)"

That's the context of the scene.

That is because you are reading it wrong, not because that is what was actually happening. She is a child giving a guy what she thinks he wants. That does not mean she that is what she wants or that she even knows what it is. It is no different than someone telling a kid " I will give you this if you go lick that frozen light pole" and they go get their tongue stuck to it because they are emotionally still just a kid. This is no different. You cannot hold kids to the same standards as adults because they are not adults. The judgement centers of their brains during puberty shut down to form their social and higher math skills so they don't have the part of their brain that tells them to "stop" working very well. That is why they cannot legally sign contracts or make their own legal decisions. Their brain has not matured enough to be able to do that, yet you want to apply adult standards to them that do not apply.

 

[Revnak]

This thread could not exist. I didn’t know it was real until two minutes ago. You can always stop. It’s a very easy thing to do.

 

[CM156]

This thread could not exist. I didn’t know it was real until two minutes ago. You can always stop. It’s a very easy thing to do.

We're trapped in this hell together.

 

[lil devils x]

Okay, let's talk about that.

Do you think an 11 year old child actually understands the sexuality of an adult man and how to manipulate it?

I mean, paedophiles think that, or at least they pretend to. Paedophiles often claim that they are the ones being seduced by their victims, and thus that their victims are fully conscious of their actions, but that's not a healthy belief, it's a rationalization of incredibly harmful behaviour.

An 11 year old child who is trying to seduce or sexually manipulate an adult is still playing. That's why the responsibility within that situation rests on the adult to establish boundaries, not on the child to implicitly understand those boundaries.

The film has a very clear perspective in this regard. The scene you're describing is the turning point between act 2 and act 3. It is the crisis of the movie, where the main character Amy hits her lowest point before resolving her issues in the third act. The film ends with her going off to engage in innocent play with other children because she's still a child. Amy does not "see herself the way guys see her", the point of the scene is explicitly that she does not know what she is doing. She is a child mimicking older women because she understands they have a sexual power which she wants but doesn't understand, and her lack of understanding hurts her but she recovers. That's part of growing up too.

Now, I made my feelings clear in the first post. I'm not averse to the argument that there are things you just shouldn't show on film, especially when real child actors are involved. But I feel the perspective of the film here is being totally misrepresented. It is a story that very explicitly asserts the value of innocence and ultimately makes very clear that children who are trying to be sexual are playing in a dangerous world they don't understand and which can sometimes hurt them, without demonizing or blaming the children themselves.

I'm also going to be honest, it also doesn't seem that horrifying. Maybe it's just my social circle, but I think a lot women can point to similar experiences, and often it doesn't even make top 5 in terms of the worst things which have happened to them.

I agree. People seem to not understand that a child's brain just does not work that way. It is no different than if they told them they would give them money to swallow a goldfish , they would go try to do it because they are just a kid. Look at all these stupid tik tok and youtube challenges kids do. Kids do not think these things through nor do they even understand the situations they are in half the time. I also agree that wouldn't even make my top 50 of bad things that happened to me. There is So much worse out there tbh.

 

[Houseman]

Do you think an 11 year old child actually understands the sexuality of an adult man and how to manipulate it?

When you use your body in order to successfully manipulate someone else, yes. I'd say that the proof of that is in the SUCCESSFUL MANIPULATION.

In this case, it wasn't an adult, just an older(?) boy, but still. She knew what he wanted and how to exploit that for personal gain.

the point of the scene is explicitly that she does not know what she is doing.

Well, consider that "task failed successfully", because, again, she was successful.
But you seem to have seen the movie, so I'll defer to you. You deserve it for your pain and suffering.

 

[lil devils x]

This thread could not exist. I didn’t know it was real until two minutes ago. You can always stop. It’s a very easy thing to do.

We're trapped in this hell together.

This film is about what girls really go through during that awkward phase of their life from when they go from being a child to a woman and the struggles and pressures they deal with from the world we live in. For some reason this reality makes some people's brains melt.

If guys can't even handle watching a movie about what girls really go through, how would they ever have even lived through with what girls actually go through? It's okay it is not as bad as some people's imaginations led them to think it is.

 

[Revnak]

This film is about what girls really go through during that awkward phase of their life from when they go from being a child to a woman and the struggles and pressures they deal with from the world we live in. For some reason this reality makes some people's brains melt.

If guys can't even handle watching a movie about what girls really go through, how would they ever have even lived through with what girls actually go through? It's okay it is not as bad as some people's imaginations led them to think it is.

Devils I was molested as a kid shut up.

 

[lil devils x]

Devils I was molested as a kid shut up.

So was I. shut up. I was raped by a 24 yr old man. How can we expect girls to be able to talk about these things so they can have a less rough time than I did if people can't even handle discussing it? We have to be able to talk about it and address it or girls will continue to feel isolated and confused without getting help through it at all.

Hell and for boys, look at the stupid bro movies trying to make raping boys out to be some great thing that happened to them. People don't even bat an eye at that yet if people try to discuss it people still can't figure out how to do that.

 

[Samtemdo8]

Devils I was molested as a kid shut up.

So was I. shut up. I was raped by a 24 yr old man. How can we expect girls to be able to talk about these things so they can have a less rough time than I did if people can't even handle discussing it? We have to be able to talk about it and address it or girls will continue to feel isolated and confused without getting help through it at all.

Ok...that's something a bit TOO personal that I never expected to hear from you guys.