New Call of Duty game let's players be Non-binary

[Terminal Blue]

Sorry to go all truscum here but Trans is related to gender dysphoria while Non binary is being presented as gender non association or non conformation.

Even if that were true, which it is not, I am a non binary person. I have gender dysphoria. I have been treated for gender dysphoria for several years now. I am therefore, by your definition, trans. That was kind of my point, a lot of non-binary people are, by your definition, trans. They just tend not to be the non-binary people who show up on cis people's radars.

Gender dysphoria kind of is an intense feeling of non-association, and I'm sure many binary trans people who have experienced it would describe it in similar terms. It is not all positive desire. It is not this disney princess thing where you lie around pining to be a woman because that you think it would be neat. It is a powerful, visceral feeling that your body is wrong, that the way people perceive you does not reflect your own sense of self, or that you are uncomfortable within the social role that you inhabit. It is a powerful feeling that these things are intolerable and you need to get away from them. Non-binary people can absolutely experience those things without coming to the conclusion that they need have the body or adopt the role of a man or a woman.

Furthermore, the underlying logic of transmedicalism/truscum is fundamentally nonsensical. There is a very real difference between a person who experiences clinically significant distress and a person who does not, but ultimately gender dysphoria is still a subjective feeling. It is a powerful and painful feeling, but it is not a physiological reality. I have never had my brain scanned to determine whether or not I had gender dysphoria, I was diagnosed on the basis of a clinical assessment in which I talked about my individual subjective experiences.

Had I been told growing up I wasn't a girl because I didn't behave like "Girls are supposed to" or whatever I'd probably be quite messed up now.

This is a stock TERF argument, and like all TERF arguments it's nonsense.

For one, it's one half of a Schrodinger's argument, in which non-binary people are simultaneously androgynous freaks who will seize on any evidence of gender non-conformity to force everyone to be trans, and on the other hand performative hipsters who are just trying to make themselves feel special.

Most non-binary people I know are not gender non-conforming. A lot of non-binary people in the public eye are not gender non-conforming. Cis people get really annoyed by this. Like, to be non-binary you have to be some kind of androgynous waif who prances through the forest riding unicorns all day. It's silly. Gender expression is not gender identity.

Secondly, the idea that people become non-binary to escape the shame or stigma of being gender non-conforming. Having lived as a gender non-conforming man for many years prior to coming out as non-binary, it is so, so much easier. I cannot even begin to tell you how much less accepting people are of non-binary people than they are of gender non-conforming people. The fact that anyone can believe, with a straight face, that coming out as non-binary makes things easier for GNC people actually offends me with its stupidity.

That's all the credence I'm giving this bad argument.

Also generally absent was research suggesting a middle step could be harmful to actual trans people embracing or accepting their new gender identity if transitioning from one binary to another.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Doctor Verma's research on it hasn't found such things which is so far some of the most advanced stuff proving gender identity can have a biological component.

Who cares?

Again, the whole "gender identity has a biological component" thing, in addition to being profoundly methodologically flawed, is an absolute irrelevance because we don't measure gender identity on the basis of biology. If binary transgender identity is loosely associated with particular biological features, that's at best an irrelevant curiosity and at worst completely meaningless to the actual social and clinical reality of gender identity.

It's cool to try and understand the relationship between neurology and cognitive features like identity, but it's also kind of abstract because we can only perceive and experience the cognitive features. People don't actually experience or feel insignificant differences in the size of microscopic features of their hypothalamus.

No just the research of Dr Kenneth J. Zucker who was one of the leading experts and researchers on gender identity conditions and how to help people transition or understand expression of Gender identity.

So, from what little I can gather from this incredibly unintuitive name drop, you expect me to rate the opinion of a single practitioner who did conversion therapy on children over the thousands of practitioners in diverse disciplines treating trans and gender variant people today.

Yeah, no.

Well when idiots are pushing for it to be a criminal offense to use the wrong ones it does become a little important.

Literally didn't happen.

 

[Houseman]

Whether you agree or disagree, a lot of you could learn a thing or two about respect from Terminal Blue.

 

[Dalisclock]

One is pretending that a gun or whatever is more powerful, or has infinite ammo, or whatever you think the issue is there.
The other is pretending that the government is more progressive than it really was.

The difference should be clear. One is pretending that sexism never existed. The other is not.

You're expecting "historical realism" in gender relations from a series built off conspiracy theories and more 'sploins.

I mean, for gods sake, the most realistic thing in the damn game is Reagen having full knowledge of telling the CIA to go do crimes for 'Murica because Freedom.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Relevant irreverent comic:

Conservatives still getting mileage out of John Money I see.

Firstly, Money did not coin the term gender. His research was mostly about sex, and in particular intersexed people What he (correctly) observed is that biological sex actually describes a whole series of different features that didn't necessarily accord with each other, or with the sex which the person had been assigned and raised in. In this regard, Money was entirely correct and this aspect of his work is not remotely controversial. What is controversial is the way he applied his research to clinical practice.

Money, like most sexologists of his time, was primarily concerned with enabling his patients to live a "normal" life. That is to say, a heterosexual life as a gender conforming man or woman with as close to normal physiology as possible. This is the fundamental mistake conservatives tend to make when they bring up John Money. His failures as a human and a medical practitioner do not stem from flaws in his observations regarding sex and gender, which were broadly correct, but rather from his overriding concern with turning his patients into normal, functioning heterosexual men and women, an irony which is typically lost on conservatives who bring him up..

David Reimer was a baby boy whose penis was burned off in a botched circumcision. He was given an orchiectomy, leaving him with no genitals at all, and reassigned as a girl. However, to ensure he developed into a "normal" girl, Money and his parents attempted to enforce what they saw as feminine behaviour. This included enforced sexual play, since again Money assumed that in order to be a normal woman Reimer had to be a submissive heterosexual bottom. This, again, is not significantly different from similar methods used in conversion therapy, which is why conversion therapy is child abuse. At the time, however, it wasn't considered particularly controversial to try and enforce heterosexual behaviour in children.

When Reimer came forward with his story 30 years later, it was generally interpreted as "proof" that gender is innate, and that you cannot simply raise someone who is biologically destined to be a boy as a girl. It's a cool story, but in reality is is overshadowed by an even darker legacy, which is that literally thousands of intersexed children, including other victims of accidents and injuries, had been reassigned as infants, often successfully. Again, the only distinctive thing about Reimer's case is that he was technically born an anatomically normal male, and the unusual degree of abuse he had received in what was nonetheless a very typical effort by a conservative (by modern standards) psychologist to normalize a gender non-conforming child.

The world is full of David Reimers, the psychological establishment of the mid 20th century churned them out in its endless desire to make people normal for the benefit of the same conservatives who today bring up John Money because they disagree with him on one of the only things he was actually correct about.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Whether you agree or disagree, a lot of you could learn a thing or two about respect from Terminal Blue.

I don't know if you're serious, but thank you anyway.

I feel like whenever I write online I sound angry all the time. Heck, I am angry. Especially about trans stuff. I can't really stay detached on that one, sadly.

But I know it's a misplaced anger, and I do wish I was better at communicating honestly without it. It's something to work on I guess.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

It will always be tiringly hilarious that in the medium known for mods and cheats and rom hacks and expansion passes and virtually unlimited ways to modify, erase, add, or otherwise change the content of videogames to match what the players want, that developers adding a simple option which is so completely optional and utterly irrelevant as choosing the pronouns of the pair of hands that you travel the game with invites such vitriol.

Like, are we taking somebody seriously when they say that the problem with non-binary pronouns is that it makes the government who's ordering the player character to commit multiple crimes, war crimes, and crimes against humanity look too progressive?

This is not the argument of a serious person.

Whether you agree or disagree, a lot of you could learn a thing or two about respect from Terminal Blue.

Is this ironic or merely hypocritical?

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Furthermore, the underlying logic of transmedicalism/truscum is fundamentally nonsensical. There is a very real difference between a person who experiences clinically significant distress and a person who does not, but ultimately gender dysphoria is still a subjective feeling. It is a powerful and painful feeling, but it is not a physiological reality. I have never had my brain scanned to determine whether or not I had gender dysphoria, I was diagnosed on the basis of a clinical assessment in which I talked about my individual subjective experiences.

Unfortunately the Brain scan method is kind of a very specialised thing hence most diagnosis as you said via clinical assessment.

Dr Verma's work can very much (and is being used) to explain gender dysphoria in binary Trans people.

As for not associating with either I think Dr Kenneth J. Zucker's research did bring that up but I won't say much more about his findings as that really was research that was still mostly in progress / being learned about more.

This is a stock TERF argument, and like all TERF arguments it's nonsense.

Well it was said Streamers on feelings and thoughts, she really didn't associate much with being a woman / being feminine.

For one, it's one half of a Schrodinger's argument, in which non-binary people are simultaneously androgynous freaks who will seize on any evidence of gender non-conformity to force everyone to be trans, and on the other hand performative hipsters who are just trying to make themselves feel special.

Have you met Tumblr activists before?

Most non-binary people I know are not gender non-conforming. A lot of non-binary people in the public eye are not gender non-conforming. Being non-binary isn't caused by being gender non-conforming. Let me tell you, cis people get really angry for some reason about non-binary people not being androgynous waifs who prance through the forest riding unicorns all day , but yeah sure, it's just because we're gender non-conforming.

Sorry I should have been clear, not in a physical looks way but in a way of I think the best word would be acting or expressing onesvself through actions

Secondly, the idea that people become non-binary to escape the shame or stigma of being gender non-conforming. Having lived as a gender non-conforming man for many years prior to coming out as non-binary, it is so, so much easier. I cannot even begin to tell you how much less accepting people are of non-binary people than they are of gender non-conforming people. The fact that anyone can believe, with a straight face, that coming out as non-binary makes things easier for GNC people actually offends me with its stupidity.

Well from what I can see very little changes ultimately e.g. Jim Sterling as an example.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Well Dr Zucker's research found the best approach was to have people find aspect or expression of a gender they felt comfortable with or ways to express it as a better means to deal with dysphoria be that via transitioning or alternative lifestyle options etc.

Who cares?

Again, the whole "gender identity has a biological component" thing, in addition to being profoundly methodologically flawed, is an absolute irrelevance because we don't measure gender identity on the basis of biology. If binary transgender identity is loosely associated with particular biological features, that's at best an irrelevant curiosity and at worst completely meaningless to the actual social and clinical reality of gender identity.

It's cool to try and understand the relationship between neurology and cognitive features like identity, but it's also kind of abstract because we can only perceive and experience the cognitive features. People don't actually experience or feel insignificant differences in the size of microscopic features of their hypothalamus.

Actually it wasn't brain structure / component piece sizes Dr Verma found were different. It was literally the brains wiring and connection structures as such which was later checked with Binary Trans people are hey found their brains were more similar to the opposite gender to their birth gender than their birth gender's expected structure.

So, from what little I can gather from this incredibly unintuitive name drop, you expect me to rate the opinion of a single practitioner who did conversion therapy on children over the thousands of practitioners in diverse disciplines treating trans and gender variant people today.

Yeah, no.

Actually if you read his research (again this was some-one who helped pioneer a lot of stuff to help people transition) he actually urged caution in regards to saying gender non confirmation was evidence of then being Trans as such an to ask the children questions an learn from their responses. Also often monitoring patients over years to be sure of the right course of treatment. In some cases you'll probably be able to find testimony off it was mere alternative gender expression manifesting early on I think in one case one patient later realise he was gay in his teenage years. Another who at a young age refuse to wear boys clothes and preferred dresses just became some-one who cross dresses but very much identified as being male still.

Literally didn't happen.

yet.

 

[Hawki]

Has B-Cell showed up yet?

He was banned.

 

[Trunkage]

No but pushing through new laws and feel good "We doing right" kind of grounds and slamming people for questioning or opposing said stuff isn't a great move either.

It's feel good? Generally its just people sick and tired of people getting treated like shit because that's what traditionally happened.

I.e. The traditional laws are the poor laws. They were poorly constructed. They lead to abuse. They were created to denigrate people. This may have been intentional or unintentional. Either way, it doesn't matter. It's not about making up new laws. It's about fixing old rules that are broken.

As to slamming people... We're worried about a non-binary option being in CoD. This should have been a non-issue. This has to be some of the most inoffensive way of doing this... But somehow there still offense and indignation. Maybe, whatever trans/gay/woman thing that happen is always going to cause offense and you just stop worrying about them.

 

[Dreiko]

Even if that were true, which it is not, I am a non binary person. I have gender dysphoria. I have been treated for gender dysphoria for several years now. I am therefore, by your definition, trans. That was kind of my point, a lot of non-binary people are, by your definition, trans. They just tend not to be the non-binary people who show up on cis people's radars.

Gender dysphoria kind of is an intense feeling of non-association, and I'm sure many binary trans people who have experienced it would describe it in similar terms. It is not all positive desire. It is not this disney princess thing where you lie around pining to be a woman because that you think it would be neat. It is a powerful, visceral feeling that your body is wrong, that the way people perceive you does not reflect your own sense of self, or that you are uncomfortable within the social role that you inhabit. It is a powerful feeling that these things are intolerable and you need to get away from them. Non-binary people can absolutely experience those things without coming to the conclusion that they need have the body or adopt the role of a man or a woman.

Furthermore, the underlying logic of transmedicalism/truscum is fundamentally nonsensical. There is a very real difference between a person who experiences clinically significant distress and a person who does not, but ultimately gender dysphoria is still a subjective feeling. It is a powerful and painful feeling, but it is not a physiological reality. I have never had my brain scanned to determine whether or not I had gender dysphoria, I was diagnosed on the basis of a clinical assessment in which I talked about my individual subjective experiences.

Sorry to butt in your guys' convo but I find this interesting.

So basically, if I get this right, you can experience dysphoria without being trans is what you're saying?

So then, what is being trans?

If the dysphoria is just its own thing and all sorts of people can experience it and it's not something that causes people to be trans, is being trans just something you decide is the cause for your dysphoria just by yourself through...self reflection? Meditation? Youtube videos? How does that work?


If you're male you don't know what it's like to be female and if you're female you don't know what it's like to be male so you can't know that you're supposed to have body parts you don't have since you've never had them and have no way of knowing how it'd feel to have them. It's like saying your favorite food is a food you've never had before, doesn't make much sense.



But yeah, I get that if you're nonbinary you can't be trans because trans is implicity binary, and just means that the person is a 0 but feels like they're a 1 and wanna transition to the other part of the binary, so if you're just outside that altogether then you really have nothing to transition to, you're in just an infinite amalgamation of chaotic gender fluctuation at this point. You're swimming in the gender fluid.

 

[Kwak]

Because that's pretending the government was more progressive than it actually was,

How is choosing the player gender option presented as being government-sanctioned?

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Silvanus]

No there's not

According to the BBC there's over 100

According to the royal society of physicians they acknowledge 6

Uh-huh, but yourself and others are in here complaining about the one extra box in COD.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Uh-huh, but yourself and others are in here complaining about the one extra box in COD.

You'll note I've not actually complained about the box itself lol

I'm pretty sure in another thread I said words to the effect

"Identify as whatever the hell you like in the end, just don't expect everything to bend to what you want"

 

[Silvanus]

You'll note I've not actually complained about the box itself lol

Yet here we are on page 7 of a thread about a new box option in COD, on post #500 complaining about what other people identify as.

I'm pretty sure in another thread I said words to the effect

"Identify as whatever the hell you like in the end, just don't expect everything to bend to what you want"

Honestly, 99% of the time, all I see are people asking for basic human respect, and then in response getting loud and unsolicited denials that they even exist or pointlessly insulting generalisations.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Dr Verma's work can very much (and is being used) to explain gender dysphoria in binary Trans people.

Beyond the fact that I have never heard of this person and can find no evidence of their work or any discussion around it, gender dysphoria isn't a neurological condition. Gender, by definition, does not have neurological markers.

There may well be (extremely subtle) neurological preconditions that make a person more likely to experience gender dysphoria, but even that wouldn't "explain" gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria doesn't really require an explanation

And again, what is your ultimate point here? Are you claiming that science has proven that I can't possibly exist? Because if so, that's not very convincing to me for obvious reasons.

As for not associating with either I think Dr Kenneth J. Zucker's research did bring that up but I won't say much more about his findings as that really was research that was still mostly in progress / being learned about more.

His research was aimed at suppressing relatively normal feelings which parents didn't want their children to have, regardless of the psychological damage to them. Let's not sugar coat that.

Have you met Tumblr activists before?

By "Tumblr activists" do you mean "people on Tumblr?"

I don't really care what happens on Tumblr, to be honest, and I don't think you actually do either.

Sorry I should have been clear, not in a physical looks way but in a way of I think the best word would be acting or expressing onesvself through actions

That is also a large part of what I meant.

Again, most non binary people are not exceptionally GNC, and some are actually very gender conforming in regards to their assigned at birth. Again, as transiently annoying as it is sometimes to have to share a platform with people who don't experience the same suffering, or who seem like they could exist perfectly happily within the gender binary, at the end of the day my subjective experience of my own identity is not more real than theirs simply because it might be more debilitating.

Well from what I can see very little changes ultimately e.g. Jim Sterling as an example.

Why is that surprising?

Even for binary trans people, it's not like they dramatically transform as people when they go into role, especially if they were gender non-conforming before.

Actually if you read his research (again this was some-one who helped pioneer a lot of stuff to help people transition) he actually urged caution in regards to saying gender non confirmation was evidence of then being Trans as such an to ask the children questions an learn from their responses.

Firstly, why are we suddenly talking about children?

Secondly, do you have a citation or more information about this?

 

[Trunkage]

Sorry to butt in your guys' convo but I find this interesting.

So basically, if I get this right, you can experience dysphoria without being trans is what you're saying?

So then, what is being trans?

If the dysphoria is just its own thing and all sorts of people can experience it and it's not something that causes people to be trans, is being trans just something you decide is the cause for your dysphoria just by yourself through...self reflection? Meditation? Youtube videos? How does that work?

Here's how I picture it in my head, stripped down to bare bones. Dysphoria is a transient feeling that generally wanes over time. Trans is a consistent feeling that never goes away except if you make some form of transition. It is easy to get them mixed up and there should be guidance from psychologist and doctor to make sure.

The current rate of transpeople reverting back to their assigned gender is about 2%. Most of these 2% have only taken hormone blockers, not even taken replacement hormones That 2% probably had gender dysporia and got it mixed up. I will continue to support the mandatory doctor and psychologist appointments before any transition

I'm not a specialist in this area. I'm pretty sure there are signs but you'd probably need to talk to someone who has been through the process to find out more.

 

[Trunkage]

You'll note I've not actually complained about the box itself lol

I'm pretty sure in another thread I said words to the effect

"Identify as whatever the hell you like in the end, just don't expect everything to bend to what you want"

Have you guys decided on what your actually going to do about it, or is complaining about it as far as it goes?

 

[Houseman]

You're expecting "historical realism" in gender relations from a series built off conspiracy theories and more 'sploins.

Yes I am. Works in the "secret history" genre must not deviate from established (recorded) history.

I feel like whenever I write online I sound angry all the time.

I don't get that impression at all. I think your posts are great.

That's not what I'm doing. I am pointing at your double standard in that you feel rewriting broad swathes of history is non-problematic, until it makes "the government" look good at which point it is cowardly and disrespectful. I am merely pointing out that you've drawn an arbitrary line between what's acceptable breaks from historical reality and what is not and it largely comes down to that you don't want the US government to look good.

Yes that's... what I said. That's exactly "trying to paint me as a hypocrite for not speaking out equally against this or that because you know you don't actually have an argument, and discrediting me is the best you can do. You can't explain why it's not propaganda to pretend that the US government was never sexist."

Let's say that I do have a double standard. Does that suddenly mean that it isn't propaganda to paint the US government as never having been sexist?
Or does one have nothing to do with the other?

By the way, I still maintain that there is no double standard here. You have continued with the claim that I "feel rewriting broad swathes of history is non-problematic" , but you still have no evidence for this claim. Either get some evidence, or stop making false claims.

How is choosing the player gender option presented as being government-sanctioned?

Because it's a CIA form.