New hard game comes out. Idiot press wants easy mode.

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

God this thread is giving me flashbacks to 2014

Only if Moviebob is fired involuntarily quits.
Though I do admit this thread is way longer than this issue has any right to be.

Even I am surprised that it's still going. I mean once you've shared what you have to say it dissolves into arguments doesn't it? It's clear what side everyone is on at this point. No one has changed their minds, people on forums rarely do.

And a thread where Saelune and I agree like 100% is a rare treat indeed.
But yeah everyone is in their corner, and there are, for once, legitimate points to be made on both sides. Easy mode is not mandatory and players can choose not to partake, also game devs are entitled to craft the experience they want, knowing difficulty is a limiting factor to who plays to completion.
Like I said on page 1, if they made a not-scary mode for a horror game, yes horror fans don't ever have to give it the time of day and anyone can play, but also you're not getting the intended experience and that should be reflected in any opinions given

 

[CritialGaming]

In addition to the several YouTuber?s and journalists already posted, yet another example [https://www.cnet.com/news/sekiro-and-difficulty-forget-the-gatekeeping-anyone-can-play-this-gem/] in understanding the point of games like Sekiro.

The only thing ?exclusionary? about these games is the amount of effort one is willing to put into them. Of course it will vary due to any number of factors, but:

A. It?s already been proven that Sekiro and SoulsBorne games aren?t nearly the most difficult games around, so skill deficiency can?t be an excuse.
B. It?s also well known that they aren?t the longest games, and that several games which have easy modes (any RPG for example) are far longer, so time deficiency can?t be an excuse
C. It?s been demonstrated that there is a clear difference between ?accessibility?, and ?difficulty?, so being disabled isn?t an excuse with Sekiro anymore than with any other game

In the end though I?ve simply never understood why every game has to somehow appeal to everyone just because they?re interactive, or that they all have to accommodate the lowest level of player effort or understanding. ?Difficulty? (or however it?s perceived at least) should be allowed to be as much of an identity trait of a game as genre itself.

 

[Dalisclock]

Makes perfect sense to me. I'm not religious. But as I understand it, if I wanted to become Jewish, I'd have to stop eating pork. I don't get to join otherwise. No bacon, ever again. I can complain all I want, but the final answer is always going to be... this is how the religion was designed, and you either follow the rules we have in place, or you can go find another religion, plenty of them out there.

You do realize that this stuff does happen in religions right? Just using Christianity as an example, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholicism are separate branches because of a schism about 1000 years ago because they disagreed on certain important points. 500 years later, Protestantism began because of other disagreements. One religion fractured into 3 large sections because not everyone agrees on the rules but still consider themselves the same religion.

On a smaller scale, you have Reformist movement/churches which argue the previous rules(of whatever church they split off of) were incorrect or in need of reform. Anglicanism(Church of England, for example) was a split from the catholic church over the authority of the pope, though is similar in most other ways.

Oh, and Judaism doesn't proselytize, so it's highly unlikely you'd meet a Jewish Evangelist.

That's not even getting into people who practice the bits of religion they agree with, sometimes of several religions. Hell, there's at least one actual religion(Vodou) that is a blend of multiple religions.

To me there is a big difference between using a bow and arrows to kill the dragon on the bridge safely from the ledge below vs. flipping a switch that nerfs the damage and hp of the dragon to a level that makes it easy to just walk up to it and kill it. The former may be a little cheesy, but it still falls within the parameters of the original game design, and may even be considered a clever solution. The latter rewrites the parameters of the game entirely, and pretty much makes it into a different game, IMO.

So are you one of those people who gets upset about giantdad or is that also acceptable play for you?

Or using poison knives to cheese bosses who don't have poison immunity?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

...Dance Dance Revolution doesn't need a dance pad. You can use a controller.

And when you do that is it still Dance Dance Revolution or does that just turn it into a generic and kind of mediocre rythme game?

That's the argument against making From Software games have easy modes. Doing so would make them generic and kind of mediocre action games and take away a part of their core identity.

So, taking this argument at face value: Dance Dance Revolution, even if you play it on a dance pad, has been harmed and is lesser because somebody else has the option of using a controller?

Because that's the argument.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Once again, Jim Sterling says it best:

 

[Kerg3927]

Why do you keep equating an easier difficulty to a cheat button? Why don't you read bartholen's post [https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.1056857-New-hard-game-comes-out-Idiot-press-wants-easy-mode?page=13#24300078] right above yours?

Because I think it's similar to entering a cheat code back in the day, like in Doom, for example.

I read it.

Just wow... equating a piece of entertainment to a religion. You don't pick a religion based on your preferences and "tastes", you pick it because you think that is the true way of the universe.

I said I'm not religious, so why would I place a greater importance upon religion than video games? To me, video games are more important. Anyway, what if a person really thinks that the Jewish religion is the true way of the universe? If he wanted to practice that religion as prescribed, he'd had to give up pork.

Don't you realize an easy difficulty can do exactly that but without the wasting your goddamn time? Farming and grinding in a game is not "work", it's wasting time.

That's one opinion. Not always the case, IMO, and grinding is not required in the Souls games. It's just one strategy.

Not that this matters at all, but this is not how Judaism works. The Jews regard themselves as a people descended from Abraham, not just a religion. It's fairly difficult to become Jewish and even harder to stop being (seen as) Jewish. The most normal way to be a Jew is to be born to a Jewish mother. Then you remain Jewish even if you stop believing (I know atheistic Jews), start eating pork, or do whatever else. Becoming a jew through other means is possible, but fairly hard. You can't just convert and start practicing.

Interesting. Yeah, I knew converting to the Jewish faith was more difficult than other religions. And that it is also an ethnic group. So maybe that was a bad example. Replace Jewish with Muslim. As I understand it, Muslims also do not eat pork.

You do realize that this stuff does happen in religions right? Just using Christianity as an example, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholicism are separate branches because of a schism about 1000 years ago because they disagreed on certain important points. 500 years later, Protestantism began because of other disagreements. One religion fractured into 3 large sections because not everyone agrees on the rules but still consider themselves the same religion.

On a smaller scale, you have Reformist movement/churches which argue the previous rules(of whatever church they split off of) were incorrect or in need of reform. Anglicanism(Church of England, for example) was a split from the catholic church over the authority of the pope, though is similar in most other ways.

Oh, and Judaism doesn't proselytize, so it's highly unlikely you'd meet a Jewish Evangelist.

That's not even getting into people who practice the bits of religion they agree with, sometimes of several religions. Hell, there's at least one actual religion(Vodou) that is a blend of multiple religions.

Yeah, so people who didn't like the rules of the religion they were practicing broke off and formed new ones with different rules. Sort of like people who don't like the rules of the video game they are playing can go play different games that have different rules. As far as Judaism, see above. Islam would probably have been a better example.

So are you one of those people who gets upset about giantdad or is that also acceptable play for you?

Or using poison knives to cheese bosses who don't have poison immunity?

Fine with me. These are clever strategies within the rules of the game. But as I understand it, the Giantdad build was nerfed by From because it was imbalanced, so it doesn't work that well anymore.

 

[CaitSeith]

Something funny I noticed in several Dark Souls playthroughs and discussions is that when people cheesed enemies and bosses, most of the time the opinion was "there is no shame in cheesing in a game like Dark Souls". For some reason, the same can not be said on other games, where such practice is shamed.

 

[CaitSeith]

Why do you keep equating an easier difficulty to a cheat button? Why don't you read bartholen's post [https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.1056857-New-hard-game-comes-out-Idiot-press-wants-easy-mode?page=13#24300078] right above yours?

Because I think it's similar to entering a cheat code back in the day, like in Doom, for example.

Wait a second. Doom also has easy modes ("I'm too young to die" mode and "Hey, not too rough" mode). Do you equate them to cheat codes too and why? If not, what makes them different to an easy mode in a From Software game?

 

[Casual Shinji]

Once again, Jim Sterling says it best:

"Git gud at handling different difficulty levels in a game." Oh that's a good one.

 

[Silvanus]

Oh that's a good one.

Huh! I would expect nothing less from Casual Shinji.

 

[Avnger]

Why do you keep equating an easier difficulty to a cheat button? Why don't you read bartholen's post [https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.1056857-New-hard-game-comes-out-Idiot-press-wants-easy-mode?page=13#24300078] right above yours?

Because I think it's similar to entering a cheat code back in the day, like in Doom, for example.

Here's the ultimate question though:

Why do you give a damn if someone else were to enter cheat codes to increase their personal enjoyment of a game, and how does someone doing that have any effect on you?[footnote]We're obviously talking about single-player games/modes here. Multiplayer cheating is a whole separate topic[/footnote]

 

[Kerg3927]

Wait a second. Doom also has easy modes ("I'm too young to die" mode and "Hey, not too rough" mode). Do you equate them to cheat codes too and why? If not, what makes them different to an easy mode in a From Software game?

Sure. On "I'm too young to die" mode, for example, players take half damage. If there was a cheat code to halve the damage taken, then entering that code would be exactly the same thing as switching the game to "I'm too young to die" mode.

https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Skill_level

And by that same logic, if there was an easy mode in the Souls games that halved the damage taken it would be the exact same thing as entering a cheat code to halve the damage taken, or hacking or modding the game to achieve the same result.

From Software decided not to go that route in their game design, though. No cheating allowed, and I like that design better, because cheaters never win.

Why do you give a damn if someone else were to enter cheat codes to increase their personal enjoyment of a game, and how does someone doing that have any effect on you?

We've been over this. It's because I don't think it necessarily increases their enjoyment of the game and quite often has the opposite effect. And I care about others and don't want to see people ruin their own game experience.

I also don't think it would be a good business strategy for From Software, who has built a very successful business model by going against the grain and doing things differently, while carefully cultivating a reputation and marketing strategy based upon providing one challenge for all. And I care about the financial health of From Software because I want to see them continue to be successful so they will keep producing great games.

 

[Abomination]

I also don't think it would be a good business strategy for From Software, who has built a very successful business model by going against the grain and doing things differently, while carefully cultivating a reputation and marketing strategy based upon providing one challenge for all. And I care about the financial health of From Software because I want to see them continue to be successful so they will keep producing great games.

If From Software offered multiple difficulties would you NOT buy their games?

I can not, for a second, fault someone for wanting an easier experience in a game. Game companies do not have to provide it, but they also are not under an obligation to not provide it either.

I can fault people for getting up in arms, wanting to... gatekeep people from gaming. Not everyone has had the time others have learning the ins and outs of gaming. There are so many terms, mechanics, and concepts veteran gamers take for granted.

There are so many reasons why someone would want an easier mode, skill, time constraints, the desire for a more relaxed experience... having entirely voluntary options can only be a good thing.

 

[BrawlMan]

Once again, Jim Sterling says it best:

Thanks, I was gonna post this later, but you already did it for me.

Once again, these arguments are going nowhere. If there is an easy option in any game or one happens to be in a From game, so fucking what?

Certain people on this board won't listen and will be back doing the same shit in the next 3 or 4 years with nothing to learn or gain. Y'all literally have nothing to do until someone "pisses" in your cereal over playing on an easier difficulty or ask for one. Peace out, I am outta of this topic.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Why do you keep equating an easier difficulty to a cheat button? Why don't you read bartholen's post [https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.1056857-New-hard-game-comes-out-Idiot-press-wants-easy-mode?page=13#24300078] right above yours?

Because I think it's similar to entering a cheat code back in the day, like in Doom, for example.

I read it.

Just wow... equating a piece of entertainment to a religion. You don't pick a religion based on your preferences and "tastes", you pick it because you think that is the true way of the universe.

I said I'm not religious, so why would I place a greater importance upon religion than video games? To me, video games are more important. Anyway, what if a person really thinks that the Jewish religion is the true way of the universe? If he wanted to practice that religion as prescribed, he'd had to give up pork.

Don't you realize an easy difficulty can do exactly that but without the wasting your goddamn time? Farming and grinding in a game is not "work", it's wasting time.

That's one opinion. Not always the case, IMO, and grinding is not required in the Souls games. It's just one strategy.

1) Difficulty levels aren't cheat codes and 2) cheat codes didn't ruin games either. Game Genies existed in the era of the hardest games and those games have kept their hard-as-hell reputations to this day.

I'm not religious either in the traditional sense but everyone has their own personal beliefs (about the world, universe, death, morals, ethics, etc.) that is their own personal religion regardless if you're apart of a major religion or just your own. If you think pigs are sacred or whatever, that's why you don't eat pork not because it's some random rule. I'm guessing you don't eat human meat because you think it's morally wrong, not whether you actually like the taste or not. That's how beliefs work.

One strategy is just tweaking the game to your skill level and your preferences as well. Gaming in every other medium inherently allows that and nothing bad has happened yet. Chess has a handicap system that removes pieces from the better player, no one has whined about that claiming chess has been ruined.

Once again, Jim Sterling says it best:

Thank god for Jim!!!

 

[Trunkage]

God this thread is giving me flashbacks to 2014

Only if Moviebob is fired involuntarily quits.
Though I do admit this thread is way longer than this issue has any right to be.

Even I am surprised that it's still going. I mean once you've shared what you have to say it dissolves into arguments doesn't it? It's clear what side everyone is on at this point. No one has changed their minds, people on forums rarely do.

Well, clearly you guys just didn't understand what I said. I just need to speak LOUDER and CLEARER. (To be clear, I'm riffing off the stereotypical American tourist who thinks they can talk louder to Non-Englsih speakers to understand.)

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

I also don't think it would be a good business strategy for From Software, who has built a very successful business model by going against the grain and doing things differently, while carefully cultivating a reputation and marketing strategy based upon providing one challenge for all. And I care about the financial health of From Software because I want to see them continue to be successful so they will keep producing great games.

If From Software offered multiple difficulties would you NOT buy their games?

I can not, for a second, fault someone for wanting an easier experience in a game. Game companies do not have to provide it, but they also are not under an obligation to not provide it either.

I can fault people for getting up in arms, wanting to... gatekeep people from gaming. Not everyone has had the time others have learning the ins and outs of gaming. There are so many terms, mechanics, and concepts veteran gamers take for granted.

There are so many reasons why someone would want an easier mode, skill, time constraints, the desire for a more relaxed experience... having entirely voluntary options can only be a good thing.

But can't you see? If a company makes money, that is an indicator of everyone involved being destined to go to heaven. Who art thou, mortal, to question the ways of God as they reveal themselves through the invisible hand of the free market? Speaking personally this thread has taught me to never question anything Facebook does ever again /s

 

[Avnger]

Why do you give a damn if someone else were to enter cheat codes to increase their personal enjoyment of a game, and how does someone doing that have any effect on you?

We've been over this. It's because I don't think it necessarily increases their enjoyment of the game and quite often has the opposite effect. And I care about others and don't want to see people ruin their own game experience.

So to clarify, you know better than other people, who you've never met, what they will personally enjoy even after they've tried both and told you otherwise?

Do you realize how narcissisticly insane that sounds at even the most basic level? It's equivalent to telling someone "You don't actually enjoy peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. You need to only eat peanut butter and banana sandwiches because I believe they taste better to you." It's patently ridiculous.

What makes your personal view on "the right way" to use an entertainment product better than any other individual's view? Who made you the sole arbiter of "the one true way?" There's nothing wrong with having a personal opinion on how to play a game. However, you're stepping well beyond that and trying to force your beliefs onto others.

 

[Xprimentyl]

I?ve officially pulled my dog from this ?fight,? but?

I don't really care that certain types of people exist who might feel a certain way because I don't really care if everyone gets to complete those games.

As for the rest of your post, again, I don't care. How many times do I have to say it? I don't care about people who feel "excluded" from playing the Souls games?

?Again, like From Software, I don't care that there are people out there who don't enjoy the games in their current state.

And I care about others and don't want to see people ruin their own game experience.

?wut?

 

[CritialGaming]

Why do you give a damn if someone else were to enter cheat codes to increase their personal enjoyment of a game, and how does someone doing that have any effect on you?

We've been over this. It's because I don't think it necessarily increases their enjoyment of the game and quite often has the opposite effect. And I care about others and don't want to see people ruin their own game experience.

So to clarify, you know better than other people, who you've never met, what they will personally enjoy even after they've tried both and told you otherwise?

Do you realize how narcissisticly insane that sounds at even the most basic level? It's equivalent to telling someone "You don't actually enjoy peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. You need to only eat peanut butter and banana sandwiches because I believe they taste better to you." It's patently ridiculous.

What makes your personal view on "the right way" to use an entertainment product better than any other individual's view? Who made you the sole arbiter of "the one true way?" There's nothing wrong with having a personal opinion on how to play a game. However, you're stepping well beyond that and trying to force your beliefs onto others.

I think he means more along the line of this tale of two play through?s [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w8wrZ25ewIY] in general. A substantial reason the SoulsBorne games have attained such a dedicated following is simply, because there has been more dedication put forth than average. Easy modes are essentially for casual play, or people who don?t play games very often. Contrast that to whoever plays through any of FROM?s games, and the differentiation is pretty crystal clear in terms of who?s truly getting more out of the games, including a sense of enjoyment and satisfaction which seems to correlate directly with how much they?ve struggled, persevered and ultimately triumphed.

Yeah, they?re ?only? games, but it?s still a big part of what separates games from other forms of entertainment, and makes them more rewarding.