New Overwatch Hero Is a Response to Body-Type Diversity Criticism

[Grumman]

I have heard one moron say that. According to him, Egyptians and Indians didn't count because they don't come from one of the handful of countries Britain hasn't invaded.

... Did someone seriously try to argue that Egypt and India weren't invaded by Britain?

No, they tried to argue that Egypt and India were invaded by Britain, and therefore were just token British colonies and not "real" African/Asian countries.

 

[ki11joyace]

Maybe I should clarify: [i/]constricting[/i] limits are the ones I hate. The kind that start with "X says we need to..." (where X isn't working on the game). That should [i/]never[/i] be how a design decision starts. "Can we do this without going over budget/time" or "Does this fit with the existing content/premise?" are perfectly reasonable.

I agree. If X isn't not working on the art or product, and the developers have not explicitly promised X anything from the art of product, then X should not be trying to change the art or product to specifically suit them. The character herself is not at all what people dislike. It is how she came to be.

I said in a previous post that I wished Blizzard would include a free option to change the hair color. I may wish it, I may politely ask, but I will not pressure them to do it, especially if they have better things to work on. This current situation seems like the result of pressure from a vocal minority rather than an organic design decision.

Ironically, I don't think many gamers of either gender or any body type care about being "represented" by this character. It is a loud but small set of people who whined for it.

 

[kenu12345]

I don't really have a problem with the design or the inclusion of the character (I actually think she looks pretty cool), but my only grief with this story is the people complaining bout diversity when all of the previous characters had completly different body types. I think this may explain it a bit more
http://thespectacularspider-girl.tumblr.com/post/113010314274/female-portrayals-in-video-games

I'm sorry, but that post (Not yours, the one you linked to) came off as really smug. "They're anti-sex and pro-ego". Lot of assumptions being made on her part. I'm currently writing a story where I want one of my characters to be sexuality liberated, she regularly frequents brothels and it's seen as "meh, whatever." But according to her I'm anti-sex. And pro-ego? Just slamming people that disagree with her. Zarya is a man with boobs? Well, I guess women can't be big and bulky, they're not "real" female characters. "Maybe they're puritanical or have low self-esteem" yeah this is what I was talking about with being smug. Peach...a diplomat. A diplomat. Peach in politics....AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA-HAAA-HAAA-HAAA! Peach DOING something. Oh that's hilarious. Peach being productive in ANYWAY front-line, supportive emotional or anything tends to be spin-off games bucking the trend of her doing absolutely nothing. Yeah she's running on 100% strawman, in general, she spends half the time lashing out at arguments NO ONE is making. Also "Oh, I'm a gay woman and I don't like this!" Well I know a transexual woman who does like it, do I win?

Ok, now that I've got that off my chest, let me talk about my problem with Overwatch. Yeah, upon closer inspection they do have different body types, but there's still something that bugs me. Compared to the male heroes the amount of diversity feels rather lacking. Yeah they're not all the same but the female heroes are a hell of a lot closer to each other than the male characters. Not to mention there seems to be an unwritten rule out there that male characters can be giant monsters or robots that don't even vaguely look human, but female characters are attractive aliens, human looking attractive robots (Fell into that bit myself, I am still kicking myself over it). Overwatch has giant robots, short dwarves, Buddhist robots and massive hulking dudes in power armor, while everyone was still roughly the same size, with exception to that Egyptian woman in power armor. I liked them I liked every one, but it felt kind of off.

Never said I agreed with everything in that. I referred to that mostly for an example on how the cast was already pretty diverse.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

True. Like I said, I like the characters in overwatch and in terms of AAA Overwatch is head and shoulders above everyone else. It's just that I feel like we're just starting to explore the boundaries of possibilities.

 

[kenu12345]

Snip

True. Like I said, I like the characters in overwatch and in terms of AAA Overwatch is head and shoulders above everyone else. It's just that I feel like we're just starting to explore the boundaries of possibilities.

Oh most certainly and I am loving it. Just wish they didn't answer cry for diversity (even if I don't find it that well founded) with a stereotype itself even if its kickbutt

 

[kenu12345]

snip

Don't worry about erttheking. Anyone that strawmans that much and uses CAPS LOCK CRUISE CONTROL so much is not worth a reply.

Oh its no problem really. I don't usually get bothered by people.

 

[Davroth]

None.
So you have no examples. Gotcha.
Anyone else?

Ah, I see. So if you make your category narrow enough noone can give you examples. While you are at it, you might as well add "face scar" and "Short pink hair" to the list.

 

[VanQ]

"Not a woman of colour"

Have people actually been complaining about this?! They already have Egyptian and Indian women... do they not count?

The funny thing is that these complaints are the least of Blizzard's worries. You know they will be quickly replaced by people bitching about game balance two days after the game comes out.

I'll give you one guess where I've seen that exact complaint. They both start with a "T" and one is quite aptly named for the "Twit"s that often use it.

 

[loa]

Ah, I see. So if you make your category narrow enough noone can give you examples. While you are at it, you might as well add "face scar" and "Short pink hair" to the list.

Well it wasn't me who started derailing this topic about body type with that "this character trope is a tired old hat" nonsense, I only checked if it really was, if there was actually any shred of substance in that unrelated whinery.
It appears that no, not even that is the case and that these are indeed children in their club treehouse who are out of actual arguments and just fling whatever comes to mind.
It's not like I came up with the criteria, I quote:

"it's just playing off the whole "Buff Russian Super-soilder" trope."

"She looks pretty stereotypical to me: the big, burly, Russian strong woman - with a prettier face, sure, but still very grounded in the stereotypes."

"As a relatively masculine Rusky female, however, it's still just another stereotype as opposed to anything particularly original or new."

I will again point out that this has nothing to do with body types in case you missed it.
No one introduced this character as this mind blowing, original concept even though it seems that this has indeed never been done this way in gaming and may very well be a first.
Innovation isn't what this is being sold on yet it is what people call into question.
Ironic, isn't it?

 

[Erttheking]

"Not a woman of colour"

Have people actually been complaining about this?! They already have Egyptian and Indian women... do they not count?

The funny thing is that these complaints are the least of Blizzard's worries. You know they will be quickly replaced by people bitching about game balance two days after the game comes out.

I'll give you one guess where I've seen that exact complaint. They both start with a "T" and one is quite aptly named for the "Twit"s that often use it.

You know, aside from one post that I've been showed (About how everyone who complains about women in gaming is anti-sex. Ugh) Tumblr has pretty much been giddy over this new character. From what I've seen at least.

 

[Davroth]

Ah, I see. So if you make your category narrow enough noone can give you examples. While you are at it, you might as well add "face scar" and "Short pink hair" to the list.

Well it wasn't me who started derailing this topic about body type with that "this character trope is a tired old hat" nonsense, I only checked if it really was, if there was actually any shred of substance in that unrelated whinery.
It appears that no, not even that is the case and that these are indeed children in their club treehouse who are out of actual arguments and just fling whatever comes to mind.
It's not like I came up with the criteria, I quote:

"it's just playing off the whole "Buff Russian Super-soilder" trope."

"She looks pretty stereotypical to me: the big, burly, Russian strong woman - with a prettier face, sure, but still very grounded in the stereotypes."

"As a relatively masculine Rusky female, however, it's still just another stereotype as opposed to anything particularly original or new."

Why are you telling me that then? Have I made that argument? Besides, you then turned around and asked for examples only from other video games and nothing else. As if video games exist inside some kind of special bubble, separated from all other sorts of media.

Fact: Russian super soldiers have been a media trope since the cold war at least.

Fact: She looks like a stereotypical butch lesbian character.

Mixing a stereotype (one that is used to marginalise and make fun of a specific group of people) with a trope doesn't make an original, fresh design. And it's not progressive. It's lazy lip service. And apparently that's all it takes to appease people.

 

[loa]

Why are you telling me that then? Have I made that argument?

You replied to me and, well you know, I never addressed you.

Besides, you then turned around and asked for examples only from other video games and nothing else. As if video games exist inside some kind of special bubble, separated from all other sorts of media.

I think that's fair.
It is its own medium and if the stereotype is as ubiquitous as people make it seem, listing 5 examples present in that medium should be easy.

Mixing a stereotype (one that is used to marginalise and make fun of a specific group of people) with a trope doesn't make an original, fresh design. And it's not progressive. It's lazy lip service. And apparently that's all it takes to appease people.

Do you read?
The things you complain about why I tell them to you, do you read them?
Or do you think that variety = innovation? Because it's not.

 

[Tien Shen]

I've always wanted a female heavy, so whatever hangups I have I'm going to shelf.

I love her.

Also Kotaku can shut up. Even (most of) tumblr seems to like her.

So we get a character made to combat complaints by the SJWs... and how do they take it I wonder?

Well going by Kotaku's article... The first comment you see is someone complaining:

https://archive.today/wOu3K

There's just no pleasing these cunts.

Of course not, give them an inch and they'll take your whole arm off. Soon they'll be demanding that they change Widowmaker to show no cleavage and have a cleft lip. Mark my words, this isn't the end of this.

 

[Haerthan]

Outside of that heinous neon color side cut I like her design. Not a big fan of how much they're promoting this fairly innocuous detail in order to get their ding slobbered by the usual crowd, it comes across as pandering. Nothing to do with the design though, just how they promoted it.

"WAh Wah Wah Wah. I am not being pandered to". That is exactly how you sound like. Seriously. You are already being pandered to by the designs of the males and most of the females in the game. Besides Blizzard said they wanted diversity, received criticism and LISTENED TO IT. So stop your crying.

Holy shit, you could not project anymore right now. I have no idea how you could misconstrue my fairly ambivalent post as "crying". You sound rather butthurt yourself actually.

"...ding slobbered by the usual crowd, it comes across as pandering". DO I need to underline and bold it as well? Cause I ain't in the mood. And i actually like the character, even if she's Russian. But like I said, you had to put the whole "ding slobbered" thing. If you didn't I would have let it slide. But nope, you had to completely undermine your entire argument.

Also accusing others of projecting is usually a really stupid tactic. Doesn't work on educated people or anyone with half a brain.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I mean, look at the blatant tumblr hair cut

WTF does tumblr have to do with that style???
Were you even conceived by the time Punk/Ska music was gaining momentum in the 80's??
your own avatar has pink hair ffs....

EDIT: I just googled "Tumblr Hairstyles" ... they're all long and wavey / braided Pagan/wikkin hippy styles ... EVEN ON THE DUDES... lol, that's the OPPOSITE of this character's punk style

Very much aware of the punk style, thank you. I actually find it pretty attractive.

But.

If you honestly don't see a resurgence of the trend in certain social groups, who frequent Tumblr and act as petulant 'megaphones' pushing for their definition of 'diversity' (I'm all for diversity. I want diversity. This character in Overwatch? Perfectly fine! Yay! Bring on more stuff, Blizz. Character variety is good, especially for rapidly discerning one character from another in a game like this.) then I'm not sure what to tell you.

Further, I don't appreciate this new group appropriating the culture of another.

Shameful behavior on their part. So, so very shameful.

snip.

obviously some "alternative" look WOOMAN is pandering to SJW's and therefore unacceptable its not like games EVER pander to gamer bros...nuh uh that's what we call "normal"

Which is why I said I was cool with it (not that I need to be in order for it to happen or be acceptable), but it IS naked pandering. I mean, they've made the character 'as a response to criticism' and, I quote,

And we just want you to know that we're listening and we're trying hard and we hope Zarya is a step in the right direction.

The same way that a buxom, barely clothed female is pandering to the sweaty 13-year-old demographic (ie. men in general)...this is pandering to a different audience. WHICH IS FIIIIIIIIIINE.

Nothing inherently wrong with it at all. Just, you know, recognize it for what it is?

 

[Nazulu]

I had no idea a Russian muscular women was a stereotype. Jeez, you just can't win, can you. It makes more sense with stereotypes because there is a reason they exist.

Maybe we should make a list of stereotypes so they know what to avoid. Has anyone ever done that?

 

[Groverfield]

I'm all for this, except her legs look far too long. Like, I'm for long legged women, but it seems like if she were to sit in the N position, her knees would rise above her head, which is past stylization and into the uncanny valley.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I had no idea a Russian muscular women was a stereotype. Jeez, you just can't win, can you. It makes more sense with stereotypes because there is a reason they exist.

Maybe we should make a list of stereotypes so they know what to avoid. Has anyone ever done that?

Well, the badass russian trope is a thing...the body builder bit isn't as prominent?

It's not all that exploited with the female side of the coin, but it does happen. Not that I'm complaining as there's nothing wrong with tropes. >_>

 

[Redryhno]

Outside of that heinous neon color side cut I like her design. Not a big fan of how much they're promoting this fairly innocuous detail in order to get their ding slobbered by the usual crowd, it comes across as pandering. Nothing to do with the design though, just how they promoted it.

"WAh Wah Wah Wah. I am not being pandered to". That is exactly how you sound like. Seriously. You are already being pandered to by the designs of the males and most of the females in the game. Besides Blizzard said they wanted diversity, received criticism and LISTENED TO IT. So stop your crying.

Read what was said again buddy. It is not that there's pandering, it's that people threw fits over it, and were rewarded. It's not a healthy relationship in any way, shape, or form when that behavior gets almost immediate results along with an apology. Not to mention, Mcree was not given as much stage space, which is a failing of this that one character is given this much attention because of people that complained. Then there's the somewhat hilarious group picture they've got on the site right now, where this "diverse" body type is, with the exception of the arms, the same basic size and proportions as Symmetra, one of the two main ones people were raising hell about in the beginning of this.

Seriously, what is so hard about being respectful with criticism these days? Why do people have to whine about it instead of, you know, submitting examples, or maybe waiting a bit before condemning the game for the ALPHA designs. This is a game that's not even in beta yet, League and Dota had a few months before the starting roster was added to(technially years in Dota's case if I remember right), and honestly? They're pretty damn diverse body types, and roles(personally I'm of the mind that League's got a better range, but that may jsut be because I can only play Bounty Hunter, Invoker, and Timbersaw and so don't really play Dota all that much.)

Also, straight mostly white guy reporting in, don't really care for pretty much any of the designs so far in Overwatch, outside of Hanzo, Bastion, and Pharah(Gatchaman-inspired uniforms are great), so guess what? The majority of the designs are not pandering to me in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Haerthan]

I mean, look at the blatant tumblr hair cut

WTF does tumblr have to do with that style???
Were you even conceived by the time Punk/Ska music was gaining momentum in the 80's??
your own avatar has pink hair ffs....

EDIT: I just googled "Tumblr Hairstyles" ... they're all long and wavey / braided Pagan/wikkin hippy styles ... EVEN ON THE DUDES... lol, that's the OPPOSITE of this character's punk style

Very much aware of the punk style, thank you. I actually find it pretty attractive.

But.

If you honestly don't see a resurgence of the trend in certain social groups, who frequent Tumblr and act as petulant 'megaphones' pushing for their definition of 'diversity' (I'm all for diversity. I want diversity. This character in Overwatch? Perfectly fine! Yay! Bring on more stuff, Blizz. Character variety is good, especially for rapidly discerning one character from another in a game like this.) then I'm not sure what to tell you.

Further, I don't appreciate this new group appropriating the culture of another.

Shameful behavior on their part. So, so very shameful.

"FEMINISTS ARE COMING TO TAKE AWAY MY GAMES") and "IM NOT BEING PANDERED TO HERE". Yes you are for diversity. Sure. Then you go on to disparage people by saying they "appropriate the culture of another". Newsflash dude. Women were part of gaming from the very beginning of the industry, both as consumers and developers. The criticism that we see nowadays is just the diverse communities in gaming just asking for a better representation than the quintessential "white grizzled male with a gruff voice who gargles rocks".

But you are all for the status quo. Have fun with it. Cause I sure as hell won't. Also a little reminder what the status quo looks like : Gamergate. (Come at me brodudes. I am ready).