New Overwatch Hero Is a Response to Body-Type Diversity Criticism

[EternallyBored]

I had no idea a Russian muscular women was a stereotype. Jeez, you just can't win, can you. It makes more sense with stereotypes because there is a reason they exist.

Maybe we should make a list of stereotypes so they know what to avoid. Has anyone ever done that?

Not so much a stereotype as a trope that existed primarily in 80's era cold war movies and comic books, especially action movies and movies targeted towards teens. It's not super common, but it's popped up a couple times, usually as a villain, and generally meant to be unattractive and generally kind of a big dumb bruiser stereotype. Usually such a character is Russian, but it isn't necessary as characters like Bruno from DC comics is pretty much this trope to a T except she's a neo-nazi instead of Russian. I believe one of the villains from the Kick Ass comics series also fulfilled this trope, but I haven't checked.

I haven't seen it used in a long time, so it's kind of a dead archetype at this point.

There's also the fact that such characters are almost always aggressive villains, so with Zarya's current sparse backstory, they seem to be trying to subvert the stereotype by making her a good guy. If she isn't overtly aggressive, that would be another subversion of the archetype as well.

As for stereotypes, while we should be careful using them, that doesn't mean they should all be eliminated, especially for stereotypes that are based in media rather than real life. Nobody actually thinks Russian women are all giant bodybuilders, it was just an archetype created in a time when the Soviet Union was a convenient antagonist for Western movie and comic protagonists to face down.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

"FEMINISTS ARE COMING TO TAKE AWAY MY GAMES") and "IM NOT BEING PANDERED TO HERE".

Um.

Spoiler: Wut?

Yes you are for diversity. Sure. Then you go on to disparage people by saying they "appropriate the culture of another". Newsflash dude. Women were part of gaming from the very beginning of the industry, both as consumers and developers. The criticism that we see nowadays is just the diverse communities in gaming just asking for a better representation than the quintessential "white grizzled male with a gruff voice who gargles rocks".

Note the context of the post.

I'm talking about the hair and their having 'appropriated' it from punk culture. I thought I was using appropriate levels of transparent sarcasm about it with that additional 'So, so very shameful' bit, but apparently not?

But you are all for the status quo. Have fun with it. Cause I sure as hell won't. Also a little reminder what the status quo looks like : Gamergate. (Come at me brodudes. I am ready).

You seem to have some sort of axe to grind here, muh good sir. Perhaps step away for a bit?

Get some tea with a bit of chamomile/honey?
Perhaps a nice crêpe?

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

a metaphor for the thread right now

Spoiler

Yea.. I'm just going to a less crazy part of the forums now. see you later
(runs as fast as I can)

 

[Haerthan]

Outside of that heinous neon color side cut I like her design. Not a big fan of how much they're promoting this fairly innocuous detail in order to get their ding slobbered by the usual crowd, it comes across as pandering. Nothing to do with the design though, just how they promoted it.

"WAh Wah Wah Wah. I am not being pandered to". That is exactly how you sound like. Seriously. You are already being pandered to by the designs of the males and most of the females in the game. Besides Blizzard said they wanted diversity, received criticism and LISTENED TO IT. So stop your crying.

Read what was said again buddy. It is not that there's pandering, it's that people threw fits over it, and were rewarded. It's not a healthy relationship in any way, shape, or form when that behavior gets almost immediate results along with an apology. Not to mention, Mcree was not given as much stage space, which is a failing of this that one character is given this much attention because of people that complained. Then there's the somewhat hilarious group picture they've got on the site right now, where this "diverse" body type is, with the exception of the arms, the same basic size and proportions as Symmetra, one of the two main ones people were raising hell about in the beginning of this.

Seriously, what is so hard about being respectful with criticism these days? Why do people have to whine about it instead of, you know, submitting examples, or maybe waiting a bit before condemning the game for the ALPHA designs. This is a game that's not even in beta yet, League and Dota had a few months before the starting roster was added to(technially years in Dota's case if I remember right), and honestly? They're pretty damn diverse body types, and roles(personally I'm of the mind that League's got a better range, but that may jsut be because I can only play Bounty Hunter, Invoker, and Timbersaw and so don't really play Dota all that much.)

Also, straight mostly white guy reporting in, don't really care for pretty much any of the designs so far in Overwatch, outside of Hanzo, Bastion, and Pharah, so guess what? The majority of the designs are not pandering to me in any way, shape, or form.

Ok one thing we gotta clarify here: BLIZZARD SAID IT WANTED TO BE DIVERSE AND THAT IT WAS OPEN TO CRITICISM. They received said criticism and acted on it. Is it that fucking hard to get that? Seriously? Christ the schooling system outside of Europe and Far East Asia seems to be fucking failing if reading comprehension isn't taught anymore.

Also last I checked the criticism sent to Blizzard was pretty much respectful. Oh and criticizing after the Alpha? After most of the development is more or less done? Yea good job buddy. You criticize when it is in development so that the BS and bugs don't make it Anthe final product. That is how criticism works. Oh yea the bodies are diverse FOR THE MALES. OTherwise for the women it was the same thin supermodel with exxagerated hips. So yea people criticized it, Blizzard listened.

And congratulations: you don't like some of the designs. Except for Pharah, who has the body type of a supermodel, except in armour. Way to prove your not being pandered to buddy, since you still like some of the designs. But when people criticize other people for better designs : OH SJWs aren't happy. Oh they will take a mile if you give them a finger. And on and on and on. Guess what buddy. Nobody is coming to take away your games (except maybe ISIS/ISIL?IS), nobody is condemning you for playing videogames (but for HARASSMENT, if you do that shit) and gaming is now mainstream, where the industry is making BILLIONS. The "ideological crusade" is nothing more then other people asking for better representation, instead of just playing the same "grizzled white male who gargles rocks".

And I am seriously tired of being respectful. The Escapist is going down the shitter ever since GG started, Archon is hiring people who at best wouldn't have a job in the real world (gaming journalism, what a joke, always has been always will be) and most of the talent that kept me here is gone. And Yahtzee, well you know how it is, too much of a good thing can spoil. Although the Escapist done goofed when they cancelled the Rhymedown and Uncivil War. Seriously their biggest moneymakers collaborated and made awesome shit.

 

[Haerthan]

Note the context of the post.

I'm talking about the hair and their having 'appropriated' it from punk culture. I thought I was using appropriate levels of transparent sarcasm about it with that additional 'So, so very shameful' bit, but apparently not?

If you were I apologize. Sarcasm is really hard to detect, especially when I am tired. But I still believe the idea of "appropriating a culture" (pffft remind me to really fucking slap the person that came up with it, most likely a Tumblerite idiot who hasnt actually read proper feminist books).

 

[BX3]

Blizzard: "So we're going for more respectful and diverse representations of women in our new TF2 simulator"
Internet: "You're full of shit"
Blizzard: "Pcht. Okay...."

-----

Pretty neat addition. The only thing I'm wondering is did they create her because they had her in their back pocket and just didn't reveal her or use her for whatever reason, or was she actually created solely as a response to the criticism? If it's the latter, while that's pretty cool of them, and I do like when companies listen/internet dissenters are proven wrong, I really have to wonder what adding her after the fact could do to the balance of the game. There's also the worry that she may be a bit too close to another character in the game that I'm sure is a tank. Design-wise, I'm skeptical is all.

Eh, the game's not even out yet; they probably know what they're doing. Now if you excuse me, I need to really consider whether or not I should read the comments in this thread. Its 6 pages long, which means one of 3 things.

In other news: I don't care how "non-unique" his design looks. McCree looks badaaaaasssss!

 

[ki11joyace]

But you are all for the status quo. Have fun with it. Cause I sure as hell won't. Also a little reminder what the status quo looks like : Gamergate. (Come at me brodudes. I am ready).

You seem to have some sort of axe to grind here, muh good sir. Perhaps step away for a bit?

Get some tea with a bit of chamomile/honey?
Perhaps a nice crêpe?

Is he saying Gamergate is "dudebros?" How long do you think it will be before he realizes Escapist has been hiring pro-GG writers? Including a female pro-GG writer. kek.

 

[walrusaurus]

i find it hard to care about this. i can play as a giant bionic gorilla with sweet specs. Who cares about the puny human options.

 

[theNater]

I don't really have a problem with the design or the inclusion of the character (I actually think she looks pretty cool), but my only grief with this story is the people complaining bout diversity when all of the previous characters had completly different body types. I think this may explain it a bit more
http://thespectacularspider-girl.tumblr.com/post/113010314274/female-portrayals-in-video-games

My main problem with that article is the assumption that what she finds sexy is what everybody finds sexy. That women can't be sexy while fully dressed. That anyone who doesn't want the women she likes is anti-sex. Well, I'll probably be mocked for saying this, but I think Zarya is hot. I like a woman with some heft to her. Zarya is such a breath of fresh air compared to the half-clothed twigs that we see over and over and over. I'd much rather date her than Widowmaker. But when I cheer for the addition of someone I think is sexy, it must be because I hate sex.

My secondary problem is that she lists four male body types when there are five: thin, dwarf, heroic, large, gorilla.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

If you were I apologize. Sarcasm is really hard to detect, especially when I am tired. But I still believe the idea of "appropriating a culture" (pffft remind me to really fucking slap the person that came up with it, most likely a Tumblerite idiot who hasnt actually read proper feminist books).

No worries.

That was the knife I was trying to twist ya know, 'cultural appropriation' being a part of the tumblr malarkey and all.

Is he saying Gamergate is "dudebros?" How long do you think it will be before he realizes Escapist has been hiring pro-GG writers? Including a female pro-GG writer. kek.

I...don't know, actually.

I was led to believe we were all neckbearded virgins. Dudebros are a whole other denomination of gamer-cretin. Or at least I don't generally conflate the two.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

There are a lot of really sad, angry people here.

Lighten up. It's just one character for freak's sake.

No wonder this site is going down the toilet rapidly.

 

[Haerthan]

But you are all for the status quo. Have fun with it. Cause I sure as hell won't. Also a little reminder what the status quo looks like : Gamergate. (Come at me brodudes. I am ready).

You seem to have some sort of axe to grind here, muh good sir. Perhaps step away for a bit?

Get some tea with a bit of chamomile/honey?
Perhaps a nice crêpe?

Is he saying Gamergate is "dudebros?" How long do you think it will be before he realizes Escapist has been hiring pro-GG writers? Including a female pro-GG writer. kek.

I have seen the news a long time ago mate. Which is why if you looked at my posting history you would have seen that I am contemplating LEAVING. But scrolling up a bit is too hard isnt it? And no "dudebros" aren't GG. GG is nothing more than 2k people at the most. And bleeding people considering that they have started attacking some of the few women that still stood up for them. It is the worst of the gaming community and I still wonder why Archon let them here, when FUCKING 4CHAN kicked them out.

Also drop the kek, this isnt WoW or Blizzard forums.

 

[ki11joyace]

Is he saying Gamergate is "dudebros?" How long do you think it will be before he realizes Escapist has been hiring pro-GG writers? Including a female pro-GG writer. kek.

I...don't know, actually.

I was led to believe we were all neckbearded virgins. Dudebros are a whole other denomination of gamer-cretin. Or at least I don't generally conflate the two.

Well KiA just hit 30k. So I guess we're the largest Dudebro-Virgin Alliance the internet has ever seen.

 

[Raesvelg]

You know, if Blizzard had just posted concept art, I probably would have found it easier to believe that the character was made in response to public pressure for a more diverse range of body types in female characters.

As it is, what with full gameplay video and all... Given the turnaround time on these kinds of decision in corporate culture, coupled with my natural skepticism and suspicious nature, I wouldn't be at all surprised this character was in development before all the kerfuffle over the first Overwatch trailer, and that Blizzard might well have decided to save the reveal for an opportune moment such as this so that they actively get credit for diversity.

If so, kudos to Blizzard.

 

[Vault101]

snip.

yeah? Tumblr's user base has a lot of cross-over with people who like alternative styles (which surprises no one), much like videogame sites like this have a large metal fan use base (which surprises no one)

"gamers" aren't appropriating metal...all these things are just part of a person and their identity

as for pandering people seem to get their panties in a twist whenever their "assumed norm" is challenged

There are a lot of really sad, angry people here.

Lighten up. It's just one character for freak's sake.

No wonder this site is going down the toilet rapidly.

BUT THIS CHARACHTER DID NOT COME ABOUT IN AN EFFICALY WAY

[B/]EFFICAAAAALL!![/B]

*cough* sorry

 

[Redryhno]

Ok one thing we gotta clarify here: BLIZZARD SAID IT WANTED TO BE DIVERSE AND THAT IT WAS OPEN TO CRITICISM. They received said criticism and acted on it. Is it that fucking hard to get that? Seriously? Christ the schooling system outside of Europe and Far East Asia seems to be fucking failing if reading comprehension isn't taught anymore.

Also last I checked the criticism sent to Blizzard was pretty much respectful. Oh and criticizing after the Alpha? After most of the development is more or less done? Yea good job buddy. You criticize when it is in development so that the BS and bugs don't make it Anthe final product. That is how criticism works. Oh yea the bodies are diverse FOR THE MALES. OTherwise for the women it was the same thin supermodel with exxagerated hips. So yea people criticized it, Blizzard listened.

And congratulations: you don't like some of the designs. Except for Pharah, who has the body type of a supermodel, except in armour. Way to prove your not being pandered to buddy, since you still like some of the designs. But when people criticize other people for better designs : OH SJWs aren't happy. Oh they will take a mile if you give them a finger. And on and on and on. Guess what buddy. Nobody is coming to take away your games (except maybe ISIS/ISIL?IS), nobody is condemning you for playing videogames (but for HARASSMENT, if you do that shit) and gaming is now mainstream, where the industry is making BILLIONS. The "ideological crusade" is nothing more then other people asking for better representation, instead of just playing the same "grizzled white male who gargles rocks".

And I am seriously tired of being respectful. The Escapist is going down the shitter ever since GG started, Archon is hiring people who at best wouldn't have a job in the real world (gaming journalism, what a joke, always has been always will be) and most of the talent that kept me here is gone. And Yahtzee, well you know how it is, too much of a good thing can spoil. Although the Escapist done goofed when they cancelled the Rhymedown and Uncivil War. Seriously their biggest moneymakers collaborated and made awesome shit.

Dude, you seriously have an axe to grind for some reason, who is the one using all-caps and complaining about GG in here, a thread made about a character that has nothing to do with a consumer revolt/movement/hategroup/whateveryouhavetocallitthisweek?

Not everyone that talks out against this kind of stuff has anything to do with GG, so chill and realize that not everyone that has a differing opinion to your own is some kind of ulta-conservative-archaic-writings-subscriber dudebro that wants to keep women in caves fit with a kitchen and everything else it takes to make sandwiches. Honestly, people complain that it's always GG bringing GG into random topics, and not the people that don't like it.

And seriously, they said they were open to criticism, not the plethora of hate they got when they released these things from twitter, tumblr, and even here. And that's the majority of what I saw as masquerading as "criticism", complaining, whining, and general all around negativity without any positivity or solutions.

Now, onto the actual important parts of discussion in your post. Yeah, the U.S. public schooling system has alot of crap, and university is way too highly valued and pushed, and teachers are increasingly more worried about test scores that were heavily pushed by many liberal institutions than teaching kids.

Have you ever watched a game like this come from development into playability? Because the way you're explaining these things really seems to suggest you haven't. LoL is continually pumping out new characters(Dota porting and updating) that impact the game in different ways and with different body designs with - for the most part - gorgeous splashes and mostly unique models in-game. Overwatch is going to be the same way from my understanding, it will never officially come out until Blizzard either gets bored and moves on or goes under and the game servers go offline. Characters will continue to come out, but people threw fits over this junk before it even started and that's what I have a problem with.

And seriously, you clipped out the part of my post explaining exactly why I liked Pharah for that gotcha moment, but here's why I like Pharah again, it has nothing to do with her body-type, and all about dat armor you so casually toss aside. She's obviously Gatchaman-inspired, and I like that.

Spoiler: For comparison

 

[Tsun Tzu]

snip.

yeah? Tumblr's user base has a lot of cross-over with people who like alternative styles (which surprises no one), much like videogame sites like this have a large metal fan use base (which surprises no one)

"gamers" aren't appropriating metal...all these things are just part of a person and their identity

as for pandering people seem to get their panties in a twist whenever their "assumed norm" is challenged

I'm just going to start putting notes on all my sarcastic (what can very charitably be called) quips. Sentences tacked on intentionally to emphasize the ridiculousness don't seem to be doing it.

I don't think they're actually 'appropriating' the punk culture. It was a jab at their type of tumblrite.

And...wait, but it IS still pandering. Ya do recognize that, right? :/ People get their undies bunched at just about everything nowadays (read: Since time began!) and the loudest voices in that regard are usually the sorta folks I'm referencing.

Same goes for their mirror images (conservative demagogues/trolls/misogynerds/etc.) in other cultures.

 

[runic knight]

For fuck's sake, why is it that I was having a more reasonable conversation on twitter then some of what I see here?

Anyways though, expanded thoughts on the character. I still like the character, as I put it elsewhere, I think that even if it is pandering (and lets be honest, between the character design and the unabashed "We did good, see!" attitude of the marketing, it can be described as nothing less) it is fine since they are pandering to a lot of different audience expectations now, adding a nice amount of variety to the roster as they go along.

I would have to say the biggest reason why I like this sort of thing but called shenanigans when Marvel was doing it was because Blizzard is adding to their property where marvel was replacing one targeted audience expectation with another. "Variety" isn't variety when it comes at the expense of other options, such as replacing an existing character or entire team with a different one for the freak-show shock and awe. But this character is just one in a growing series, so cool on them to add the character, if people don't like them, no need to use them, they will probably make one you do like well enough(if the game interests you anyways).

I have heard people say the other character they released, the gunslinger, got the shit end of the stick for being released at the same time and being less interesting a character, and I can see where that comes from, but I think that is more complaint with how the characters were unequally marketed (see: pandering) and less the fault of the characters themselves there.

For the individual using the thread to rant about gamergate though (and "male gamers" and various strawmen arguments and escapist bashing and whatever else), stop. Just stop. We have a nice little thread for that sort of thing already and I know you'd be very welcome to go on a rant like that there. So take the chip on your shoulder there if you got to, but please try to keep the thread at least a little more on topic.

 

[Vault101]

And...wait, but it IS still pandering. Ya do recognize that, right? :/ People get their undies bunched at just about everything nowadays (read: Since time began!) and the loudest voices in that regard are usually the sorta folks I'm referencing.
.

if were assuming in this context "Pander" isn't a bad thing then sure....although generally its used to describe appealing to "bad" aspects of its audience

and contrary to what everyone's saying pink hair is not the devil

 

[TheRealCJ]

Well, it's obvious pandering.

I mean, look at the blatant tumblr hair cut, and that's not even mentioning Blizzard's "we're trying reeeeally hard u guise" comments.

But...so what if it's pandering? Everybody deserves to be pandered to, imo. So, the hell with it, she offers variety and doesn't 'replace' the other characters.

No problems here.

Except her hair and face were based on a Blizzard employee.