Nice Guys Suck

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

Yeah, clearly nothing I'm saying is getting through to you. You're too emotionally invested in this argument.

There's kind of a huge amount of space between being treated like dirt and being treated like a goddess on a pedestal who is never allowed to fall off it ever. But if you want to think there are only those two extremes, you can go right ahead and think that.

You are the one who put forward the idea of being put on a pedestal. I merely said that it's pretty ridiculous to complain about being treated nicely by someone. Nice is a good thing.

You took what I said completely out of context.

The thing is, though, is that it is a real problem. It might not be as serious as the problems you experienced, but you are wrong to be dismissive of it. Would you like people to play this sort of game with you? "My suffering was worse than your suffering, so yours doesn't matter" is a hurtful, even cruel, thing to do to someone.

Are you saying someone being nice to you is a problem? It's not a problem at all. It's something good. :/

Labelling nice people as sinister plotters is kind of harsh don't you think?

 

[Kahunaburger]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

I'd like to imagine that there's a middle ground between treating other human beings like deities and treating them like dirt. It's certainly a middle ground I try to occupy in my relationships.

Well being at that end of the spectrum is a hell of a lot better than being at the other.

But why look for "less bad" when you can look for good?

Because not all women have the luxury of being picky...

It just seems to me that complaining about someone being nice to you is kind of ridiculous.

I don't see "giving xyz gifts and performing xyz vaguely sexist favors, and expecting sex and relationship stability in return" as "nice." Probably not just me, either.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

I'd like to imagine that there's a middle ground between treating other human beings like deities and treating them like dirt. It's certainly a middle ground I try to occupy in my relationships.

Well being at that end of the spectrum is a hell of a lot better than being at the other.

But why look for "less bad" when you can look for good?

Because not all women have the luxury of being picky...

It just seems to me that complaining about someone being nice to you is kind of ridiculous.

I don't see "giving xyz gifts and performing xyz vaguely sexist favours, and expecting sex and relationship stability in return" as "nice." Probably not just me, either.

That's just an incredibly cynical and paranoid way of looking it. I gave a guy I like a copy of Skyrim for Christmas. I didn't give him it expecting sexual favours I gave him it because I wanted him to not feel left out while everyone else was playing it because he's working on getting his car up and running and it's costing him a lot of money...

I suppose in your eyes I'm a villainous schemer.

 

[KirbyKrackle]

The thing is, though, is that it is a real problem. It might not be as serious as the problems you experienced, but you are wrong to be dismissive of it. Would you like people to play this sort of game with you? "My suffering was worse than your suffering, so yours doesn't matter" is a hurtful, even cruel, thing to do to someone.

Are you saying someone being nice to you is a problem? It's not a problem at all. It's something good. :/

Er, no. I'm saying "being nice is not the problem, but claiming to be nice while, in fact, acting like a passive-aggressive, cowardly asshole is". I should have also added "underhanded and deceitful".

Perhaps this will clarify: Being "nice" for the sake of being a decent human being is fine. Being "Nice" because you (general you) expect something in return is not, especially when you aren't even honest about it.

Also, I noticed that "some don't have that luxury" comment, and I'm a bit concerned about it. You should always feel that, yes, you do have that luxury. You shouldn't pair up with someone just for the sake of pairing up with someone because you feel that a romantic relationship is a necessity in life. That can also lead to unhealthy, unhappy relationships.

EDIT: Ah, I just noticed your Skyrim anecdote above. That's actually a good example of being kind; that makes you a nice person. Now, if you were being "Nice" with the expectation that, because you gave this person a copy of Skyrim, that person owes you something in return, (particularly a relationship or sexual favours) then you are a "Nice Guy", or, in other words, a jerk.

 

[rosac]

I cant help but feel that I may well be a nice guy (tm) as I have a friend who i have feelings for, but she has a boyfriend a long distance away, so when she has a problem she comes to me. I look after her slightly more than I do other people around me, admittedly, and I can't help feeling that, as much as I enjoy her company, the fact I am constantly helping her and cannot show her how I feel due to the social situation and the fact she is (to my knowledge, she talks to her girlfriends about her relationships, I try to avoid talking about relationships mainly because i got tangled up in the clusterfuck that was my best buddies last relationship, not cool) happy with her boyfriend, is tearing me apart slightly. Im trying to get away from her a bit and chat with other girls, but she keeps asking me to help her and I can't exactly not help her as she is an old friend. Its fucked up.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Now, if you were being "Nice" with the expectation that, because you gave this person a copy of Skyrim, that person owes you something in return, (particularly a relationship or sexual favours) then you are a "Nice Guy", or, in other words, a jerk.

It's kind of a complete assumption that's what they are after in the first place though.

 

[Kahunaburger]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

I'd like to imagine that there's a middle ground between treating other human beings like deities and treating them like dirt. It's certainly a middle ground I try to occupy in my relationships.

Well being at that end of the spectrum is a hell of a lot better than being at the other.

But why look for "less bad" when you can look for good?

Because not all women have the luxury of being picky...

It just seems to me that complaining about someone being nice to you is kind of ridiculous.

I don't see "giving xyz gifts and performing xyz vaguely sexist favours, and expecting sex and relationship stability in return" as "nice." Probably not just me, either.

That's just an incredibly cynical and paranoid way of looking it. I gave a guy I like a copy of Skyrim for Christmas. I didn't give him it expecting sexual favours I gave him it because I wanted him to not feel left out while everyone else was playing it because he's working on getting his car up and running and it's costing him a lot of money...

I suppose in your eyes I'm a villainous schemer.

No, I personally love it when people give me copies of Skyrim. It's just that if someone bought me a copy of Skyrim every Saturday, and then was all "you should have sex with me because I gave you 20 copies of Skyrim!" I would be somewhat creeped out.

 

[antipunt]

Wow, talk about a swing and a miss. This really drives home just how badly Crigger fails to get it.

The problem was never her distinction between Nice Guys? and nice guys (though I find that distinction more than a little condescending). Her great clarification in this column amounts to nothing more than "sometimes people who pretend to be nice aren't nice", which as advice goes is right up there with "don't eat the yellow snow" on the list of things that insult your audience by pretending they need to be told it.

No, the problem with Crigger's last column is that she thinks she can just declare some guy writing in to be a Nice Guy? without him saying anything in his letter demonstrating that. Perhaps Crigger needs to be reminded that she is not a mind-reader, and that she cannot just magically divine people's motivations through several hundred miles of Internet cabling. This isn't the first time she has made that mistake, and she makes it again in her response to "I am a Nice Guy", when she busts out this "advice":

So don't settle for being "nice". Strive for "amazing", or "unforgettable", or "the greatest man I've ever met".

Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead.

"I am a Nice Guy" did not ask for insincere, cliche advice about how to "be a supernova". "I am a Nice Guy" admitted to social anxiety issues, a real and studied psychological condition. If we give him the benefit of the doubt that in his letter he wasn't lying through his teeth (and why wouldn't we?) then his problem is not general confidence but learning to deal with his anxiety in social situations. But he didn't even ask for that. We don't know that he needs or wants that kind of help. It's quite presumptuous to treat him like he's helpless the way Crigger did.

I understand that Crigger has absolutely no qualifications or experience that would make her advice any more sound than anyone else's, and that the purpose of advice columns is to provide entertainment for the readers in general rather than actually solving anyone's problems. But unless TheEscapist has turned into the kind of website that gets its page views by outright trolling its audience, there should be no place for advice that insults the people writing in by just making up stuff about them because they kinda-sorta resemble a nerdy stereotype.

I scanned this last page and I just want to quickly point out a particular term:

The Strawman Argument

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

This entire article was damage control, and it's kind of nasty (at least to me) how easily some are gobbling it all up. The original context/argument is all missing (surprise!), because this new pseudo-argument is so easy to win (it's not even really an argument. It's common sense, at least to those with experience in actual dating). It's a classic switch-and-bait, while the author gets to smile behind the scenes maintaining:

You weren't the only one to call me out for my apparent disdain of "nice guys". And while I stand by my answer, I thought it might be best to clarify a little.

It's all about semantics, saving face, not admitting fault, throwing out a strawman, and moving on. Talk about manipulation, lol.

Alright I'm done pissing in the wind. For anybody who's actually interested in the -real- argument, feel free to do actual research on the primary source (last week's love FAQ thread).

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/lovefaq/9230-Love-FAQ-Stop-Camping-Your-Girlfriend-for-Sex.2

Pressed, she's not into you. She's never been into you. She will never be into you. Stop obsessing over her and find someone else.

One last thing: Stop inviting girls to meet your parents before you even have your first date. You're 21. An adult. You don't need Mommy and Daddy's approval of your sex life.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

Hmm, this is getting kinda heated. Odds say 10/1 this sets up a trend of 'Nice Guy' related threads. Any takers? Place your bets Ladies and Gentlemen, place your bets!

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

I'd like to imagine that there's a middle ground between treating other human beings like deities and treating them like dirt. It's certainly a middle ground I try to occupy in my relationships.

Well being at that end of the spectrum is a hell of a lot better than being at the other.

But why look for "less bad" when you can look for good?

Because not all women have the luxury of being picky...

It just seems to me that complaining about someone being nice to you is kind of ridiculous.

I don't see "giving xyz gifts and performing xyz vaguely sexist favours, and expecting sex and relationship stability in return" as "nice." Probably not just me, either.

That's just an incredibly cynical and paranoid way of looking it. I gave a guy I like a copy of Skyrim for Christmas. I didn't give him it expecting sexual favours I gave him it because I wanted him to not feel left out while everyone else was playing it because he's working on getting his car up and running and it's costing him a lot of money...

I suppose in your eyes I'm a villainous schemer.

No, I personally love it when people give me copies of Skyrim. It's just that if someone bought me a copy of Skyrim every Saturday, and then was all "you should have sex with me because I gave you 20 copies of Skyrim!" I would be somewhat creeped out.

I think if they were crazy enough to do that they would have bigger problems than just being a 'Nice Guy' Someone with empathy and concern for people other than themselves would get them help and confront them with him. Not think 'What a creepy weirdo.' and bin them (as a friend).

 

[Cephei Mordred]

Ignoring the clear tone of "be alpha or gtfo" for a moment...

This seems to go in contradiction to your earlier statement of:

But there is nothing wrong with changing your personality, not to accommodate what (you think) will please others, but because of a genuine desire for yourself to become something better and more awesome.

"Providing value for others" sounds a lot like a mandate to please others to me. Heck, all this talk of 'value' pretty much sets the stage for a moral mandate to be subject to the judgement of all others, at the expense of ones own self judgement of value.

There is nothing "be alpha" about it. Most people who know me consider me an awesome person, and I'm not an alpha type at all. Being awesome is in no way associated with being an alpha male or being a pack leader )

As for your point, the reason I'm talking about providing value for others is because this thread is essentially about the mating game, and if you can't provide 'value' to the opposite sex (or same sex if you're gay), then you obviously aren't going to get laid.

Beyond that, most people want to be awesome not to please others, but because it pleases them self mentally.
Why do you think those big guys who work out at the Gym with big muscles like admiring themselves in the mirror? Because they like their awesome muscles. Same reason girls pose in front of the mirror in their new clothes and photograph it.
Why do you think people like to brag about their accomplishments (like a Facebook status with someone saying they just ran 4 minutes in 30 minutes, and then being totally proud of them self)? Because bragging boosts their ego.

Ultimately the goal of being "awesome" for most people is about pleasing themselves, not pleasing others. That's why i recommend that if you want to make your life better, then do it for your OWN sake, not for others. Providing value to others is just a side bonus that makes them like you (which in turn also boosts your ego, as in, it grants you a selfish pleasure, and will eventually enable you to find people to spend your life with, be it friends or a wife/husband), but it's not a priority over YOU being happy with YOURSELF.

Wanting to attain social status is ultimately a selfish goal, but it relies on providing other people with value in their lives. If you want to ignore (or don't care) about your social status, then all the more power to you, but don't expect other people to care about you then.

I suppose the difference between you and me is:

You think that "You have a duty to provide value to others" and "You should be valuable because you want to be, but everyone has a right to look down on you if you fail to do so" are two different things.

I don't. Or at least, I think that it's impossible to differentiate between the two meaningfully.

As I said in my first post on the thread, don't love me because I'm beautiful. If a woman doesn't love me when I'm weak and worthless, why should I believe her feelings are sincere when I do become more valuable and productive?

Love with conditions is not really love, is it?

 

[KirbyKrackle]

Now, if you were being "Nice" with the expectation that, because you gave this person a copy of Skyrim, that person owes you something in return, (particularly a relationship or sexual favours) then you are a "Nice Guy", or, in other words, a jerk.

It's kind of a complete assumption that's what they are after in the first place though.

Nice Guys tend to make it quite clear, sooner or later, usually in the context of "I was so nice to you, you owe me X" or "how can she refuse me after I was so nice". Or sometimes they'll just never mention their true intentions, instead becoming increasingly bitter while refusing to ever change their poor behaviour since it's far easier to blame women and other people for their problems than suck it up and act like an adult.

Part of the problem, though, is that they are ultimately deceptive and you DON'T know that that's why they're being nice until the above blow up, which is why it's a huge problem, and again why I said it's an attempt to create and maintain a dishonest, unhealthy relationship.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Now, if you were being "Nice" with the expectation that, because you gave this person a copy of Skyrim, that person owes you something in return, (particularly a relationship or sexual favours) then you are a "Nice Guy", or, in other words, a jerk.

It's kind of a complete assumption that's what they are after in the first place though.

Nice Guys tend to make it quite clear, sooner or later, usually in the context of "I was so nice to you, you owe me X" or "how can she refuse me after I was so nice". Or sometimes they'll just never mention their true intentions, instead becoming increasingly bitter while refusing to ever change their poor behaviour since it's far easier to blame women and other people for their problems than suck it up and act like an adult.

Part of the problem, though, is that they are ultimately deceptive and you DON'T know that that's why they're being nice until the above blow up, which is why it's a huge problem, and again why I said it's an attempt to create and maintain a dishonest, unhealthy relationship.

Sorry but I just think it's an incredibly suspicious and victimising way of looking at it.
Most of these men just want someone to care for them back, they just don't know how to express it.

Making them out to be some ultimate evil is pretty harsh.

Especially from the point of view of someone who has experienced actual 'bad men'

As I said in my first post on the thread, don't love me because I'm beautiful. If a woman doesn't love me when I'm weak and worthless, why should I believe her feelings are sincere when I do become more valuable and productive?

Love with conditions is not really love, is it?

So much this... The women who expect men to be some kind of rockstar (and the reverse is true also) are the same as the ill touted Nice Guy because they have unrealistic expectations. 'Be amazing or I won't give you the time of day.' vs 'I gave you presents why won't you like me?' Aren't they equally as noxious?

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

Yeah, clearly nothing I'm saying is getting through to you. You're too emotionally invested in this argument.

There's kind of a huge amount of space between being treated like dirt and being treated like a goddess on a pedestal who is never allowed to fall off it ever. But if you want to think there are only those two extremes, you can go right ahead and think that.

You are the one who put forward the idea of being put on a pedestal. I merely said that it's pretty ridiculous to complain about being treated nicely by someone. Nice is a good thing.

You took what I said completely out of context.

Absolutely no one in this thread is complaining about being treated nicely. That's not what it's about.

It's about "nice guy behavior." Which is not even remotely the same thing as "nice behavior."

 

[Kahunaburger]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

I'd like to imagine that there's a middle ground between treating other human beings like deities and treating them like dirt. It's certainly a middle ground I try to occupy in my relationships.

Well being at that end of the spectrum is a hell of a lot better than being at the other.

But why look for "less bad" when you can look for good?

Because not all women have the luxury of being picky...

It just seems to me that complaining about someone being nice to you is kind of ridiculous.

I don't see "giving xyz gifts and performing xyz vaguely sexist favours, and expecting sex and relationship stability in return" as "nice." Probably not just me, either.

That's just an incredibly cynical and paranoid way of looking it. I gave a guy I like a copy of Skyrim for Christmas. I didn't give him it expecting sexual favours I gave him it because I wanted him to not feel left out while everyone else was playing it because he's working on getting his car up and running and it's costing him a lot of money...

I suppose in your eyes I'm a villainous schemer.

No, I personally love it when people give me copies of Skyrim. It's just that if someone bought me a copy of Skyrim every Saturday, and then was all "you should have sex with me because I gave you 20 copies of Skyrim!" I would be somewhat creeped out.

I think if they were crazy enough to do that they would have bigger problems than just being a 'Nice Guy' Someone with empathy and concern for people other than themselves would get them help and confront them with him. Not think 'What a creepy weirdo.' and bin them (as a friend).

The point is more that 20 Skyrims = sexytime is basically an exaggeration of what the nice guy phenomenon boils down to. It's the whole concept that doing nice things for people should be rewarded with affection/sex, and that if someone doesn't do so, it's a failure on their part. Not exactly the recipe for a healthy relationship.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

Yeah, clearly nothing I'm saying is getting through to you. You're too emotionally invested in this argument.

There's kind of a huge amount of space between being treated like dirt and being treated like a goddess on a pedestal who is never allowed to fall off it ever. But if you want to think there are only those two extremes, you can go right ahead and think that.

You are the one who put forward the idea of being put on a pedestal. I merely said that it's pretty ridiculous to complain about being treated nicely by someone. Nice is a good thing.

You took what I said completely out of context.

Absolutely no one in this thread is complaining about being treated nicely. That's not what it's about.

It's about "nice guy behavior." Which is not even remotely the same thing as "nice behavior."

It's my belief that this 'Nice Guy' doesn't exist though.
There is no way to know what is going on in someone's head when they do something.

The point is more that 20 Skyrims = sexytime is basically an exaggeration of what the nice guy phenomenon boils down to.

Or maybe they are just doing it because they like her and they don't know how to express it.

This whole thing just seems incredibly narrow minded and judgemental to me

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

Yeah, clearly nothing I'm saying is getting through to you. You're too emotionally invested in this argument.

There's kind of a huge amount of space between being treated like dirt and being treated like a goddess on a pedestal who is never allowed to fall off it ever. But if you want to think there are only those two extremes, you can go right ahead and think that.

You are the one who put forward the idea of being put on a pedestal. I merely said that it's pretty ridiculous to complain about being treated nicely by someone. Nice is a good thing.

You took what I said completely out of context.

Absolutely no one in this thread is complaining about being treated nicely. That's not what it's about.

It's about "nice guy behavior." Which is not even remotely the same thing as "nice behavior."

It's my belief that this 'Nice Guy' doesn't exist though.
There is no way to know what is going on in someone's head when they do something.

That's because you haven't met one yet.

I have met plenty. It becomes extremely clear in hindsight what their intentions were, when they start saying "but I did this and this and this for you, that means you're supposed to stay with me!" That explains pretty clearly what was going on in their head.

Eventually you learn what to look out for and you can recognize a "nice guy" pretty easily, though it sometimes takes a bit of time for it to really become clear.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

Yeah, clearly nothing I'm saying is getting through to you. You're too emotionally invested in this argument.

There's kind of a huge amount of space between being treated like dirt and being treated like a goddess on a pedestal who is never allowed to fall off it ever. But if you want to think there are only those two extremes, you can go right ahead and think that.

You are the one who put forward the idea of being put on a pedestal. I merely said that it's pretty ridiculous to complain about being treated nicely by someone. Nice is a good thing.

You took what I said completely out of context.

Absolutely no one in this thread is complaining about being treated nicely. That's not what it's about.

It's about "nice guy behavior." Which is not even remotely the same thing as "nice behavior."

It's my belief that this 'Nice Guy' doesn't exist though.
There is no way to know what is going on in someone's head when they do something.

That's because you haven't met one yet.

I have met plenty. It becomes extremely clear in hindsight what their intentions were, when they start saying "but I did this and this and this for you, that means you're supposed to stay with me!" That explains pretty clearly what was going on in their head.

Eventually you learn what to look out for and you can recognize a "nice guy" pretty easily, though it sometimes takes a bit of time for it to really become clear.

Or maybe he thought he was doing what you wanted and was confused as to why you were unhappy?
No one is psychic.

 

[KirbyKrackle]

No, I personally love it when people give me copies of Skyrim. It's just that if someone bought me a copy of Skyrim every Saturday, and then was all "you should have sex with me because I gave you 20 copies of Skyrim!" I would be somewhat creeped out.

I think if they were crazy enough to do that they would have bigger problems than just being a 'Nice Guy' Someone with empathy and concern for people other than themselves would get them help and confront them with him. Not think 'What a creepy weirdo.' and bin them (as a friend).

I hope, kahunaburger, you don't find me stepping on your toes by jumping in here, but I'm a bit concerned about xXxJessicaxXx's comment as it can be very problematic.

xXxJessicaxXx, a Nice Guy who comes out and reveals that he was acting nice solely in an attempt to worm his way into your life and ultimately for sexual gratification is a liar, and that is a betrayal of the woman's trust. It also means they are not nice (since nice people do nice things without expectation of reward), and are in fact jerks. You are essentially trying to make the victim of this betrayal seem like a bad person for wanting nothing further to do with a jerk. Please, could you explain why it's a good idea to confront a jerk or why it is the responsibility of the jerk's victim to get the jerk help? Why is it selfish or sociopathic to want nothing to do with a jerk? In fact, continuing to maintain a relationship with a jerk out of some misplaced kindness can actually just make the jerk worse (since they do not receive negative consequences for their behaviour) and hurt both the jerk and the victim.

It is not the victim's responsibility to "fix" a jerk, and perpetuating this idea is actually quite harmful to the victim.

Now, if you were being "Nice" with the expectation that, because you gave this person a copy of Skyrim, that person owes you something in return, (particularly a relationship or sexual favours) then you are a "Nice Guy", or, in other words, a jerk.

It's kind of a complete assumption that's what they are after in the first place though.

Nice Guys tend to make it quite clear, sooner or later, usually in the context of "I was so nice to you, you owe me X" or "how can she refuse me after I was so nice". Or sometimes they'll just never mention their true intentions, instead becoming increasingly bitter while refusing to ever change their poor behaviour since it's far easier to blame women and other people for their problems than suck it up and act like an adult.

Part of the problem, though, is that they are ultimately deceptive and you DON'T know that that's why they're being nice until the above blow up, which is why it's a huge problem, and again why I said it's an attempt to create and maintain a dishonest, unhealthy relationship.

Sorry but I just think it's an incredibly suspicious and victimising way of looking at it.
Most of these men just want someone to care for them back, they just don't know how to express it.

Making them out to be some ultimate evil is pretty harsh.

Especially from the point of view of someone who has experienced actual 'bad men'

Again, they are bad men. They are not the worst men, but they are still bad, and again it's problematic to ignore bad behaviour just because it's not the worst behaviour. And, again, their behaviour can lead to them becoming the worst sort of men or warn that they are, in fact, already the worst sort of men. Also, can you point out where I stated or even implied that they are "some ultimate evil"? I believe you are putting words in my mouth.

I also argue with your characterization of these men as someone who just wants "someone to care for them back" because if that was the case, they would have been happy to stay friends. The problem is that they might state that that's all they want, but they in fact have ulterior motives. Additionally, many, if not all, of them do know how to express their desires (ask the woman out on a date) but refuse to out of cowardice. This behaviour should not be accepted.

As I said in my first post on the thread, don't love me because I'm beautiful. If a woman doesn't love me when I'm weak and worthless, why should I believe her feelings are sincere when I do become more valuable and productive?

Love with conditions is not really love, is it?

So much this... The women who expect men to be some kind of rockstar (and the reverse is true also) are the same as the ill touted Nice Guy because they have unrealistic expectations. 'Be amazing or I won't give you the time of day.' vs 'I gave you presents why won't you like me?' Aren't they equally as noxious?[/quote]

Well, one is deceptive, and the other isn't, so it's not actually quite the same. Also, might I add that it's a bit much to expect unconditional love while being a worthless human being? Talk about unrealistic expectations, not to mention an entitlement complex. Lay off the Bronte, CM

EDIT: Again, I apologize for cutting in here, but I just want to mention that using "There is no way to know what is going on in someone's head when they do something" as an excuse for Nice Guy behaviour is ultimately quite dangerous in that it can be used as a blanket excuse for any kind of bad behaviour up to and including abuse. Just as an example, say a guy tries to control a woman and emotionally abuse her by insulting her ability to drive to the point where she's terrified to do it? Well, gosh, how do we know he was really an emotionally abusive asshole? We're not psychic. Maybe he was just concerned for her and didn't know how to express it.
...God it's disgusting to type that out.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

1. If you don't love someone while they are at their worse then you don't love them.
2. If you actually think there is such a thing as a 'worthless human being'....I don't even.
3. Someone who behaves like Kahuna described clearly has mental problems and should get help. What is wrong with wanting to help someone? Do you think compassion is a bad thing?

Edit. Just as an example once I was attacked badly by a man at a taxi rank. I got away from him but the next day the police came round the house having seen it on the cctv. I didn't press charges and made sure that he got into a rehab centre as he was homeless and a drug addict. That may make me a walkover or something but sometimes one chance is all people need.

4. I don't believe that this label has any grounding in reality it's pinning the socially awkward with certain attributes when in reality they are probably completely different. It's no different than calling all overweight people 'stupid fatties who stuff their face' when in reality each person may have a completely different reason as to why they are obese.
5. Once you are in love with someone it's very hard to be friends with them you do feel bitter and betrayed. Unrequited love is agonising. But that's a normal reaction and people shouldn't feel ashamed of it. Not wanting to be friends with someone who rejected you doesn't mean you had some sort of sinister plot all along.

I thought this might make you laugh in rl Im named after the Bronte sisters.