Nice Guys Suck

[maiiau]

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

No it doesn't contradict it at all.

Your personality (as in, "being yourself") is not a constant object. It's a growing entity that matures with your experiences and your interactions with the world, and it's perfectly possible to change and mold it while still being yourself.

Sure, it's not a 1 day change, and some guy who from one day goes from being a nerd who dresses badly etc. to someone who wears suits and generally try to impress people is an example of someone who is trying too hard.

But there is nothing wrong with changing your personality, not to accommodate what (you think) will please others, but because of a genuine desire for yourself to become something better and more awesome. For the sake of example, if someone who is a a fat smoke one day decides that enough is enough and quits smoking and starts in the gym and drops 50 pounds in a couple of months, do you also consider that person to be someone who is pretending to be someone else, or do you see him as someone who matured and dealt with his personal problems with great dedication? I certainly hope it's the latter.

.

Improving and maturing your personality is not only doing yourself a favor, it's doing everyone around you who knows and interacts with you a favor. Being awesome (which, as pointed out, is something that can be learned), and making people realize that you are awesome is the greatest gift you can give to both yourself and them.

I'm starting to think i've given the wrong impression of myself from my first post. Yes, i regard myself as an introvert, but that doesn't mean i'm not communicative- heck i can be when i need to be- i work as a university tour guide for instance.

I'm just a little mythed by what Lara and yourself mean when you describe "being awesome" or being a "supernova", it sounds rather vague. Does it mean playing guitar on stage or being the one guy's who does something so ridiculous on a night out people are talking about it for years after? I don't play an instrument and personally i don't like making a scene on a night-out- i'd rather just rather be myself and relax with my friends.

Does it mean having lots of different hobbies and interests? I already have many hobbies and interests. I'm becoming a bit of a film buff, I love my heavy metal, appreciate anime, practise archery and video games, follow all the internet viral videos, and i'm passionate about comedy, history and international affairs. Now, many of those listed interests arn't exactly interests i would not trumpet in a job interview, but these are things i genuinely like and i'm not going to change them for something more socially acceptable. I am interested in things for my own sake, not societies.

Does it mean leaving an impression on other people? Well...i do leave impressions on other people- mostly positive hopefully, i've got different circles of friends, many many acquaintances from university. I mean, i'm not exactly the super-nova of a party- quite simply because i don't have the verbal charisma as some other people do. And, from experience, supernova's burn people- I've met some very verbally charismatic guys, and i know people who can't stand living with them- I wouldn't want to be such a person. Then of course your saying well find the mid-point, be a star and don't burn people, but my point is that i already do that. I have plenty of friends, both at home, at university and at other universities. My social calender's usually pretty full during the holidays,and socially at university i do fine as well. I'm not exactly a huge socialite, but i'm no loner either.

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

You absolutely should be yourself, but it's also your job to be someone worthwhile if you want anyone to give a rat's ass when you do.

I already do stuff worthwhile- as already mentioned tour guiding, but also i'm features editor for the university newspaper, i'm volunteering to work with 6th formers to gain teaching experience, and when i can i help out at a local youth club. I've also applied to work as an assistant language teacher in Japan- and failing that i'll take a TEFL course and go teach English abroad anyway for a couple of years.

I don't completely know what i want to do as a career, i'm leaning towards teaching but my options are open. But as i've said, i do have hobbies, interests and activities. Being told that i have to be a supernova just seems like plain overkill- because i already do interesting stuff.

So, in the end i'm just left feeling a bit frustrated by this thread. I mean, yes i'm a nice guy (not TM nice guy)- i don't expect girls to find me attractive by me being nice to them, i learnt that the hard way in the past- but thus far nothing i've heard has been off much help!

(Admittedly of course a big reason for this is that my personal problems in a field are not exclusive to being a nice guy, so don't feel offended by such remarks!)

You have these interests. That's what you should be trying to get across to someone, not just that you're nice. Talk about movies, play video games, talk about the university newspaper. Don't try to be some generic blank slate. The point, I think, is to not have "he's nice" be the ONLY thing about you that gets across. It should be one thing, definitely, but try and get across more than that.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

I know this isn't really the central theme of the article but I get the impression that these Nice Guys are looked upon as some kind of menace?!?!...

As someone who survived a violent long term relationship I laugh heartily at the thought of women hating on men who are being nice to them.

Oh dear what a horrible thing for you to put up with Princess it must be so terrible being bought gifts and being treated like a goddess.

Spoiler: Dun Dun DUUUUUUN

This is a problem is it? Riiiiight. Excuse me while I go over here and laugh manically and possibly cry a bit.

Being put on a pedestal is not a fun experience. If a guy treats you like a goddess it's because he wants something from you, whether that's sex, self-esteem, prestige, or whatever else. You're always worrying if you're doing enough to "pay him back" for all the time and attention he spends on you. And if you ever fall off that pedestal, you're worse than trash in his eyes. I've had this experience numerous times, to the point that it's made me almost want to give up on relationships entirely. Almost.

Being treated like a partner is infinitely better than being treated like a goddess.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I know this isn't really the central theme of the article but I get the impression that these Nice Guys are looked upon as some kind of menace?!?!...

As someone who survived a violent long term relationship I laugh heartily at the thought of women hating on men who are being nice to them.

Oh dear what a horrible thing for you to put up with Princess it must be so terrible being bought gifts and being treated like a goddess.

Spoiler: Dun Dun DUUUUUUN

This is a problem is it? Riiiiight. Excuse me while I go over here and laugh manically and possibly cry a bit.

Being put on a pedestal is not a fun experience. If a guy treats you like a goddess it's because he wants something from you, whether that's sex, self-esteem, prestige, or whatever else. You're always worrying if you're doing enough to "pay him back" for all the time and attention he spends on you. And if you ever fall off that pedestal, you're worse than trash in his eyes. I've had this experience numerous times, to the point that it's made me almost want to give up on relationships entirely. Almost.

Being treated like a partner is infinitely better than being treated like a goddess.

How is being treated nicely a problem exactly?

Would you prefer the alternative?. It just seems like women who complain about men being nice to them don't know how lucky they are. It makes me laugh.

With women suffering from domestic violence complaining about this is worse than selfish tbh.

 

[GothmogII]

I know this isn't really the central theme of the article but I get the impression that these Nice Guys are looked upon as some kind of menace?!?!...

As someone who survived a violent long term relationship I laugh heartily at the thought of women hating on men who are being nice to them.

Oh dear what a horrible thing for you to put up with Princess it must be so terrible being bought gifts and being treated like a goddess.

Spoiler: Dun Dun DUUUUUUN

This is a problem is it? Riiiiight. Excuse me while I go over here and laugh manically and possibly cry a bit.

Being put on a pedestal is not a fun experience. If a guy treats you like a goddess it's because he wants something from you, whether that's sex, self-esteem, prestige, or whatever else. You're always worrying if you're doing enough to "pay him back" for all the time and attention he spends on you. And if you ever fall off that pedestal, you're worse than trash in his eyes. I've had this experience numerous times, to the point that it's made me almost want to give up on relationships entirely. Almost.

Being treated like a partner is infinitely better than being treated like a goddess.

Isn't that how the song goes?:

 

[Athinira]

I'm just a little mythed by what Lara and yourself mean when you describe "being awesome" or being a "supernova", it sounds rather vague. Does it mean playing guitar on stage or being the one guy's who does something so ridiculous on a night out people are talking about it for years after? I don't play an instrument and personally i don't like making a scene on a night-out- i'd rather just rather be myself and relax with my friends.

At the end of the day, you don't need to be any more "Supernova" than you want to be yourself.

Noone here is expecting anything of you, and it's your decision how to live your life and put up goals in it. All we are pointing out is that to reach a goal, you have to work for it. Wanna be a professional soccer player? Train hard. Want a job as a CEO for a big company? Study hard, collect experience, make contacts and be intelligent. Want a lot of success with women? Be a supernova.

If you are just satisfied with hanging out with your friends though, then we aren't going to tell you not to or that it's wrong )

But to answer your question: Being awesome, supernova or whatever you wanna call it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with doing a lot of crazy things. There are many ways to have an awesome personality. Some men are stylish laid-back gentlemen with good social etiquette. Some men are daring cocky playboys (or badboys) with a great sense of humor and a dominating approach. Some men are simply wacked in a funny way (Laras description) that attracts attention. Some men have great body and social language, making them interesting in general. Some men have are cool authority figures who has an aura that demands respect wherever they go. Some men are a great sport who excels at mixing things up and creating excitement in their general area. These are just a few examples of a great many ways to be awesome.

You talk a lot about what you do or like in your daily life, but these doesn't have anything to do with being awesome and are, most of the time, more or less irrelevant. Appreciating anime, for example, isn't going to do you any good in a conversation at a party. Being awesome is about your personality and how you present it, it's not about what you do in your life (which is of little interest to anyone until they wanna start dating you).

Edit: Wanted to throw in that even though your life are of little interest to people, that doesn't mean you can't talk about the different subjects that interests you. Example: Telling someone that you like anime is unlikely to make them care, but throwing a clever reference to a well-known anime in a conversation or discussing the subject if it pops up is a great way to present yourself as verbally intelligent. Just don't overly argue. That's uncool and one of the fastest ways to turn a woman off!

 

[Spirit356]

After going to sleep, waking up and finishing my coding for this weekend I took the time to think more about this article and why it seems to have have caught a lot of attention and debate between people in this thread and to me it seems to be that this article is clearly lacking in the male perspective, the 'Nice Guy' is being looked at from a female perspective. It seems most clear to me when young men are told "Don't just be nice" but why prey tell is there not a paragraph devoted to young women telling them "Well he may just be nice and you may not share much in common but goddamn a person who truly is kind and considerate is a rare thing and you should at least try to find some common ground."?

Here's the thing really when relationships seem the most important to us (i.e. Puberty) we are really at the worst stage to actually enter into them, we are being subjected to MASSIVE physical, mental and emotional changes at all times and it's also the time in which we try and find out who we are as people. I'm sure we can all look back on ourselves at 12 and wonder about all the changes that have taken place. So trying to settle on a person is like trying to hit a bulls eye 120 miles away while it is moving at the speed of sound.

If I could give advice to both sexes it would be the following:

Guys: A girl being nice to you does not equal an attraction, I know it's nearly impossible to tell but usually it doesn't. It's hard to ask someone out but just do it, in a few years you'd rather look back at a rejection that took five minutes than the months you spent pining and fantasising over a relationship that just wasn't going to happen.

Most Importantly (Well I think it's most important), never change yourself for anyone but especially a women, never be afraid to argue or fight over what you choose to follow or believe in because if you do change yourself even if it ends in a relationship you won't be happy anyway.

Girls: I know how hard it is to tell a male friend who is attracted to you that it is not mutual but for the love of god grow a damn spine and do it, our society creates a gender dynamic in which the men have to do most of the work in pursuing a relationship (Of course there are examples of the opposite but I'm talking about the majority of the time) and this is really one of the only hard things that has to be done. Also while I'm on this note let me make something incredibly clear (So clear I will put some of it in caps, apologies for this btw)

SAVING A MANS FEELINGS IS ACTUALLY THE WORST THING YOU COULD EVER POSSIBLY DO. When it comes from men they seem to be binary, when they ask you out they are either expecting a 1 or a 0, yes or no. When you say something like 'Well I'd rather we just stay friends' you may believe that you are saying no but to a man you're saying maybe which is just as good as saying yes. Actually the best example of that is a 'How I met your mother' episode which for the life of me I cannot remember right now.

N.B. The following is all based on my own experience with both genders and yours may differ completely which would make this entire post kind of moot.

 

[Xman490]

"Social anxiety issues" sounds like a pretty good representation of my issues. However, they're more of an obsession with how to get the best out of things. For example, a young woman I was interested in wanted to suggest a movie to the school's Cinematic Arts Commission/Club, and I introduced her and her suggestion to the group.

By the way, she wasn't very interested in me, as she was a more "friends first" person and usually does not really want to spend time with me.

 

[Blow_Pop]

It honestly depends on the girl. Some girls genuinely are more attracted to nice guys. Lets see the guy I'm currently crazy for(despite the damn distance) is a nice guy. Yeah he can be an ass at times and I can be a ***** at times. Its who we are. But generally he doesn't hide who and what he is..from me at least....probably because I can see through the act really easily. Going from dating a Nice Guy(TM) and a nice guy I know the difference and can tell you I prefer the nice guy. I hate the guys who are dicks in general and not nice at all. And I hate the stereotype of girls love bad boys. No we don't. The girls who do are the girls who like making excuses for their men and like being subjugated by their men. I don't understand those girls. Though she does have a point. I know a lot of nice guys are too afraid to do some things. Break out of that shell from time to time and try something new. Who knows? Maybe you'll like it. Maybe not. But you'll have that experience good or bad and if someone asks if you've ever done it you can tell them and tell them why you did or didn't like it.

SAVING A MANS FEELINGS IS ACTUALLY THE WORST THING YOU COULD EVER POSSIBLY DO.

What about doing that in telling him No? Cause I like to think I save my guy friends feelings and a lot of time by outright telling them that I like them as a friend and no more than that when they ask me out.




Another thing: Men: WHEN A GIRL SAYS SHE IS NOT INTERESTED IN YOU IN PLAIN TERMS SHE IS NOT TRYING TO SUBTLY TELL YOU TO KEEP IT UP. SHE MEANS NO. DON'T PUSH IT. WE DON'T LIKE THAT.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

How is being treated nicely a problem exactly?

Would you prefer the alternative?. It just seems like women who complain about men being nice to them don't know how lucky they are. It makes me laugh.

What is "the alternative" exactly? There are dozens of different kinds of relationships. Of course the extreme ends of the spectrum will be bad; it's not as black and white as that.

Anyway, that's not what I said in my post. Being treated nicely isn't a problem. Being obsessed over is. If he's constantly tripping over himself to do nice things for you, then there is something wrong with the relationship.

Here's how it was in one of my relationships with a "nice guy": he wouldn't let me order for myself in restaurants, he always ordered for me. He shouldered people out of the way so he could open doors for me. He would carry me around the apartment when I could have walked perfectly fine on my own. He would buy me a gift every week. If I mentioned I liked white Christmas lights, he would decorate his entire apartment with them. He called me "goddess" and "princess" and "my lady" and all that nonsense, and he had decided within a week of getting together with me that I was perfect and we would be together forever.

And if I ever showed the slightest hint of not being completely 100% appreciative of what he did, he would spend days sulking over it.

And of course he had been mentally keeping track of everything the whole time. When we inevitably broke up, he brought up every nice thing he did for me as if he deserved continued repayment for it all, as if the fact that he had done all those things for me meant that he had somehow purchased me for life.

Sure it feels nice to be treated well, but not to that extent. And definitely not for any longer than a few months. After that point, the cracks always begin to show.

Additionally, being called "perfect" when you clearly aren't (because no human is) leads to anxiety. What happens when he realizes I'm not perfect? Will he leave me? If he's one of those "nice guys," then yes. Actually he won't leave you, he'll continue clinging to you, but he'll start passive-aggressively hating you.

This is what being treated like a goddess is like. It is not normal and it is not healthy. Being treated like an equal, a partner, and a companion is what you should be looking for.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

I just saw your edit.

With women suffering from domestic violence complaining about this is worse than selfish tbh.

Oh, come on. That's like saying that people who aren't living in a third world country have no right to be depressed. Just because some unhealthy relationships are more unhealthy than other unhealthy relationships doesn't mean the people who are in them should be perfectly content because "it could be worse."

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I just saw your edit.

With women suffering from domestic violence complaining about this is worse than selfish tbh.

Oh, come on. That's like saying that people who aren't living in a third world country have no right to be depressed. Just because some unhealthy relationships are more unhealthy than other unhealthy relationships doesn't mean the people who are in them should be perfectly content because "it could be worse."

It's not even negative though...He is lavishing praise and presents on you and that upsets you? I'm not even talking about someone being in a relationship. I'm talking about people complaining about these Nice Guys who try to pursue one with them and then acting like they are the scum of the earth for being pleasant.

Are we living in backwards land now?

If I was a relationship with the guy you describe I would count myself lucky I had someone who cared about me tbh. It's better than men treating you like dirt.

 

[Spirit356]

SAVING A MANS FEELINGS IS ACTUALLY THE WORST THING YOU COULD EVER POSSIBLY DO.

What about doing that in telling him No? Cause I like to think I save my guy friends feelings and a lot of time by outright telling them that I like them as a friend and no more than that when they ask me out.

Another thing: Men: WHEN A GIRL SAYS SHE IS NOT INTERESTED IN YOU IN PLAIN TERMS SHE IS NOT TRYING TO SUBTLY TELL YOU TO KEEP IT UP. SHE MEANS NO. DON'T PUSH IT. WE DON'T LIKE THAT.

Well the thing is rejecting someone no matter what you do will always lead to hurt feelings, when saying saving their feelings I meant saying something like 'Oh I would but I need to spend time on studying right now' or 'I don't want to hurt our friendship.' I know personally that when women do this they think they're doing the best thing by saying no in the kindest way possible but a lot of men have trouble with understanding that they're saying no at all.

I totally agree with your point, if a woman says no it's game over, do not pass go, do not get $200 but you should realise that by even doing that you're going to hurt someones feelings.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

I just saw your edit.

With women suffering from domestic violence complaining about this is worse than selfish tbh.

Oh, come on. That's like saying that people who aren't living in a third world country have no right to be depressed. Just because some unhealthy relationships are more unhealthy than other unhealthy relationships doesn't mean the people who are in them should be perfectly content because "it could be worse."

It's not even negative though...He is lavishing praise and presents on you and that upsets you? I'm not even talking about someone being in a relationship. I'm talking about people complaining about these Nice Guys who try to pursue one with them and then acting like they are the scum of the earth for being pleasant.

Are we living in backwards land now?

If I was a relationship with the guy you describe I would count myself lucky I had someone who cared about me tbh. It's better than men treating you like dirt.

That's not being pleasant, it's being obsessive.

Being pleasant is making you breakfast in bed on Saturdays and buying you a thoughtful gift for your birthday. Being obsessive is making you breakfast in bed every day and buying you any random gift every week.

You show someone you care about them by making room for them in your life, by paying attention to their needs and to their likes and dislikes. You don't do it by putting that person's needs before your own and deciding for them what they should like and dislike. I didn't like receiving that many presents, because I'm a minimalist who isn't a fan of owning things. Did he care? Nope. He believed that girls liked getting presents, so he should get presents for his girlfriend, and if she doesn't like them that just makes her a horrible person. Giving a gift shows love, so giving more gifts shows more love, right?

I felt like he didn't see me as a human, but as some kind of archetype or trophy or sometimes even a pet. A "goddess" again. Being treated as something other than human is unpleasant, whether it's negative treatment or positive. Just try saying to an Asian "all you people are really good at math," and they won't take it as a compliment.

If you really want to be in an obsessive relationship, you're going to be jumping from one unhealthy extreme to another. Don't do it.

 

[Origin64]

I'm an INTJ and what is this

 

[Divine Miss Bee]

Despite your clarification, I can't help but feel like you still have an aversion to "nice guys" in terms of people who are just generally good people. My question is, what is wrong with wanting someone who is just generally good as a base "ideal person" to look for in a relationship. We should all want to be with people who will treat us with respect and kindness and to accept anything less just seems rather stupid.

Also, I move we switch calling "Nice Guys tm" to something less confusing because that's all it really will lead to anyway. Why not call them manipulators? "Masterminds"? Riddlers, so to speak. Those all seem to fit much better from where I'm sitting.

the problem is that "nice guys" is what they call themselves. thus the clarification. girls quickly learn to avoid guys who call themselves nice. and you're right that there's nothing wrong with a person being nice to us, but every guy in the world must understand that nice is the bare minimum for friends and lovers, and being nice to us without anything else will not get you farther than the level of "acquaintance" and you shouldn't expect it to. act like a basic human and you'll be treated that way. act like someone who is deep and interesting and worth knowing (which almost everyone already is, in their way) and you'll be treated that way. that's all that lara is saying.

 

[Daveman]

Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead.

I love the be "out there" approach. It's such bullshit. The more I do all of that the more disdain I gather from every girl I know because they think I'm just trying to be cool because I love getting drunk, taking the mic and dancing like a crazy person and that's apparently mutually exclusive with being nerdy.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

 

[Insanely Asinine]

I think I found myself.

 

[Kahunaburger]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

I'd like to imagine that there's a middle ground between treating other human beings like deities and treating them like dirt. It's certainly a middle ground I try to occupy in my relationships.