Nice Guys Suck

[Spirit356]

SAVING A MANS FEELINGS IS ACTUALLY THE WORST THING YOU COULD EVER POSSIBLY DO.

What about doing that in telling him No? Cause I like to think I save my guy friends feelings and a lot of time by outright telling them that I like them as a friend and no more than that when they ask me out.

Another thing: Men: WHEN A GIRL SAYS SHE IS NOT INTERESTED IN YOU IN PLAIN TERMS SHE IS NOT TRYING TO SUBTLY TELL YOU TO KEEP IT UP. SHE MEANS NO. DON'T PUSH IT. WE DON'T LIKE THAT.

Well the thing is rejecting someone no matter what you do will always lead to hurt feelings, when saying saving their feelings I meant saying something like 'Oh I would but I need to spend time on studying right now' or 'I don't want to hurt our friendship.' I know personally that when women do this they think they're doing the best thing by saying no in the kindest way possible but a lot of men have trouble with understanding that they're saying no at all.

I totally agree with your point, if a woman says no it's game over, do not pass go, do not get $200 but you should realise that by even doing that you're going to hurt someones feelings.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

I just saw your edit.

With women suffering from domestic violence complaining about this is worse than selfish tbh.

Oh, come on. That's like saying that people who aren't living in a third world country have no right to be depressed. Just because some unhealthy relationships are more unhealthy than other unhealthy relationships doesn't mean the people who are in them should be perfectly content because "it could be worse."

It's not even negative though...He is lavishing praise and presents on you and that upsets you? I'm not even talking about someone being in a relationship. I'm talking about people complaining about these Nice Guys who try to pursue one with them and then acting like they are the scum of the earth for being pleasant.

Are we living in backwards land now?

If I was a relationship with the guy you describe I would count myself lucky I had someone who cared about me tbh. It's better than men treating you like dirt.

That's not being pleasant, it's being obsessive.

Being pleasant is making you breakfast in bed on Saturdays and buying you a thoughtful gift for your birthday. Being obsessive is making you breakfast in bed every day and buying you any random gift every week.

You show someone you care about them by making room for them in your life, by paying attention to their needs and to their likes and dislikes. You don't do it by putting that person's needs before your own and deciding for them what they should like and dislike. I didn't like receiving that many presents, because I'm a minimalist who isn't a fan of owning things. Did he care? Nope. He believed that girls liked getting presents, so he should get presents for his girlfriend, and if she doesn't like them that just makes her a horrible person. Giving a gift shows love, so giving more gifts shows more love, right?

I felt like he didn't see me as a human, but as some kind of archetype or trophy or sometimes even a pet. A "goddess" again. Being treated as something other than human is unpleasant, whether it's negative treatment or positive. Just try saying to an Asian "all you people are really good at math," and they won't take it as a compliment.

If you really want to be in an obsessive relationship, you're going to be jumping from one unhealthy extreme to another. Don't do it.

 

[Origin64]

I'm an INTJ and what is this

 

[Divine Miss Bee]

Despite your clarification, I can't help but feel like you still have an aversion to "nice guys" in terms of people who are just generally good people. My question is, what is wrong with wanting someone who is just generally good as a base "ideal person" to look for in a relationship. We should all want to be with people who will treat us with respect and kindness and to accept anything less just seems rather stupid.

Also, I move we switch calling "Nice Guys tm" to something less confusing because that's all it really will lead to anyway. Why not call them manipulators? "Masterminds"? Riddlers, so to speak. Those all seem to fit much better from where I'm sitting.

the problem is that "nice guys" is what they call themselves. thus the clarification. girls quickly learn to avoid guys who call themselves nice. and you're right that there's nothing wrong with a person being nice to us, but every guy in the world must understand that nice is the bare minimum for friends and lovers, and being nice to us without anything else will not get you farther than the level of "acquaintance" and you shouldn't expect it to. act like a basic human and you'll be treated that way. act like someone who is deep and interesting and worth knowing (which almost everyone already is, in their way) and you'll be treated that way. that's all that lara is saying.

 

[Daveman]

Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead.

I love the be "out there" approach. It's such bullshit. The more I do all of that the more disdain I gather from every girl I know because they think I'm just trying to be cool because I love getting drunk, taking the mic and dancing like a crazy person and that's apparently mutually exclusive with being nerdy.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

 

[Insanely Asinine]

I think I found myself.

 

[Kahunaburger]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

I'd like to imagine that there's a middle ground between treating other human beings like deities and treating them like dirt. It's certainly a middle ground I try to occupy in my relationships.

 

[SaintWaldo]

A woman who tells her friends that, "well, he was nice" is damning you with faint praise, because it means she can't think of anything else to remember you by.

So don't settle for being "nice". Strive for "amazing", or "unforgettable", or "the greatest man I've ever met".

Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead.

You are a real human being, and not a cabbage or something.

The above passage should be read, and then gender flipped and read again. It's the only advice to give on any subject, to any person, at any time of their life.

Frankly, Lara Crigger, I'm smitten. I'm in deep smit. You just made my weekend (and I did a live show last night...), knowing that someone who knows the real tune is here, calling it, and cavorting along instead of leading. You are in the light.

Have a great set of holidays and a fabulous 2012.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

I'd like to imagine that there's a middle ground between treating other human beings like deities and treating them like dirt. It's certainly a middle ground I try to occupy in my relationships.

Well being at that end of the spectrum is a hell of a lot better than being at the other.

 

[antipunt]

Really when I look at it from that perspective I see 'Nice Guys' less as the Machiavellian orchestrators and more naive confused young men stuck on level one of the game of love and really, shouldn't we be giving these guys a hint?

The problem with that, though, is that most people don't bother giving hints or any meaningful advice to those types of guys (which I could say I am one of those "stuck" guys); they just spew the same tired cliches of "Be yourself" and "Have confidence", and fail to go into more specific or proficient detail.

Plus, it doesn't help when this person seems like she's implying that being nice, introverted or unsuccessful with love means that you are an incompetent dick who only want women for sex. Just ridiculous.

I agree. Though not currently a nice guy, I used to be one. This thread is turning into a 'GRL-power-LULZ!' thread. The reason for the backlash was -NOT- because her advice was wrong. It was because it was uncalled for/harsh in its context.

Have people forgotten the original article and who she was replying to? Did it sound like he was a nice-guy TM? And WTF is this 'nice-guy TM' business anyway. Way to generalize. There's a difference between a guy who becomes friends with a girl first to get to know her, and is too shy to be forthright, and a guy who friends a girl hoping he can one day manipulate her into having sex with him. Let's throw everyone under the 'manipulator' umbrella. Don't even get me started on evolutionary biology, it'll turn everyone into a manipulator...

This is honestly a pretty awkward 'burn the witch at the stake' demonization, although I suppose there are plenty of girls/guys who would prefer to take the cheap shot at shy/immature individuals rather than reasonably help their fellow man without calling them 'jerks'. Emotional punching bag much?

Nice Guys (TM) are inexperienced at dating, and they don't realize that chick flicks are just the female version of video games; fantasies, a "wouldn't it be nice if..." world of make believe. The whole thing with a girl eventually realizing that the guy who's always been there for her is the one for here? Yeah, that's an escapist fantasy for people who know that the world doesn't really work like that. The problem is that those of us who grew up on movies like that wouldn't know the world isn't like that unless we had first hand experience -- which the nice guys (TM) severely lack. We need to be building up these guys and teaching them where they're going wrong, not debasing them as assholes. Otherwise, they run a serious risk of growing up to be bitter old coots who die alone. Case in point:

Eh, I know I'm a nice guy, not a self-entitled over-expectant shit... (the trade-marked "nice guy")....

I've been told "one day" someone will recognise that, but until such time.... Their loss, no-one really knows how "nice" or "caring" I can be, maybe because of years of living in solitude, ignoring almost anything to do with anyone of importance...

I know it sounds like I'm a little "up myself" but, fuck it, no-one cares... The day someone does, then I might pretend they actually exist...

"but if you're ever going to find love, the kind that changes your life and makes you the man you were meant to be"

That's right, guys. If you don't go out and find love you're not the man you were "meant to be". It doesn't matter if you're not interested in love... that just means you are a worthless human being because apparently you're only worth a damn if you have someone who loves you.

I'm sorry that was probably a bit harsh, but that line really rubbed me the wrong way. I am someone who isn't really interested in love, relationships and all that crap, so does that make me less of a man in your eyes?

To both of you: I'm sorry, but you sound /incredibly/ bitter. These are the words of a person who has been rejected so many times that he has not only given up, but become actively angry at the world.

You know what's ironic? In the context of these conversations, I don't even think the real jerks are the Nice-guys at all. Your post insinuates that quite nicely.

 

[Kahunaburger]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

I'd like to imagine that there's a middle ground between treating other human beings like deities and treating them like dirt. It's certainly a middle ground I try to occupy in my relationships.

Well being at that end of the spectrum is a hell of a lot better than being at the other.

But why look for "less bad" when you can look for good?

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

Yeah, clearly nothing I'm saying is getting through to you. You're too emotionally invested in this argument.

There's kind of a huge amount of space between being treated like dirt and being treated like a goddess on a pedestal who is never allowed to fall off it ever. But if you want to think there are only those two extremes, you can go right ahead and think that.

 

[Divine Miss Bee]

I can't help but feel a little assaulted by this article. Excuse me for wanting to actually know someone before I pursue a relationship with them. I'm 22 and i've only seriously dated 2 people, and I'm totally fine with that. Both of them were women that i had been friends with prior and we casually flirted a little and eventually started dating. Both of them were very positive relationships that i would not have done any differently. You seem to be saying that since being a nice guy won't get you every woman in the room its a bad personality. And, from where i'm sitting, that is a very sad perspective.

the point is that you guys did flirt a little. there was attraction during the friendship. she's not talking about you, that's normal. she's talking about the guys who try to force attraction where there is none because they feel like being a good friend to a girl entitles them to move beyond friendship and into the sex part. you're fine, don't worry.

 

[Methe]

I suspect that everyone agreeing that nice guys finish last (without any caveats) are still teenagers. No offence to anyone who isn't.

 

[Kopikatsu]

I suspect that everyone agreeing that nice guys finish last (without any caveats) are still teenagers. No offence to anyone who isn't.

...That's kind of the point. Nice guys don't 'win' (Not that women are a prize to be won) until mid-life when women start looking to settle down. Which, yes, means that they finish last. It's the assholes who attract all of the girls/women at the earlier stages of life.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I suspect that everyone agreeing that nice guys finish last (without any caveats) are still teenagers. No offence to anyone who isn't.

...That's kind of the point. Nice guys don't 'win' (Not that women are a prize to be won) until mid-life when women start looking to settle down. Which, yes, means that they finish last. It's the assholes who attract all of the girls/women at the earlier stages of life.

Oh, that's what it was referring to. I always thought "nice guys finish last, assholes finish first" was about premature ejaculation.

(Although in all seriousness, I don't really buy that dickishness is attractive to young people, and friendliness is only attractive to older people.)

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

I'd like to imagine that there's a middle ground between treating other human beings like deities and treating them like dirt. It's certainly a middle ground I try to occupy in my relationships.

Well being at that end of the spectrum is a hell of a lot better than being at the other.

But why look for "less bad" when you can look for good?

Because not all women have the luxury of being picky...

It just seems to me that complaining about someone being nice to you is kind of ridiculous.

 

[Divine Miss Bee]

...And the woman says, "Great, because you are in the freind-zone."

Then they have a friendship.

Ya, that's not actually a friendship. that's the friend zone.

if you think it's the same as a real friendship, you're deceiving yourself just as much as the nice guy is.

taking offers of "lets just be friends" at face value stops being a valid response for either gender when you're over 20.

lies. all of my friends are male, i'm female, we're over 20, and none of them have ulterior motives and neither do i. we're friends and we don't have any sexual attraction issues. this is mostly because i didn't stay friends with the guys who gave me the "i listened to your problems so now we have sex" ultimatum. and you won't find a girl who will. so if you really want to keep treating girls the way you are saying you do, you need to prepare for the way they'll treat you that goes with that. i'm not saying you are, but you come across as a "nice guy" jerk, so you'll stay single until you fill whatever void is in you on your own and stop lying to women about your motives.

 

[KirbyKrackle]

snip

Like I said better than being treated like dirt like a lot of women. You don't have any idea how lucky you are to have men fawning over you. You should be enjoying it rather than complaining about a non-existent problem.

It must be a real curse...

The thing is, though, is that it is a real problem. It might not be as serious as the problems you experienced, but you are wrong to be dismissive of it. Would you like people to play this sort of game with you? "My suffering was worse than your suffering, so yours doesn't matter" is a hurtful, even cruel, thing to do to someone.

Now, as for the problems with Nice Guy behaviour. Part of the issue with Nice Guys is that they are not just being pleasant for the sake of pleasantness. The behaviour is quite sleazy, in that it's an attempt to gain and maintain a relationship with a woman through deceit. The Nice Guy's behaviour is also built on objectification and entitlement, in which the woman ceases to be a person in the eyes of the Nice Guy and he feels he has a right to her, her own thoughts and feelings be damned. This in turn can lead to the Nice Guy becoming extremely nasty when ultimately rejected (or when they realize that the "goddess" is in fact human), resulting in stalker behaviour or completely turning on the former object of affection, treating her like dirt. While this is not violently abusive, it is unhealthy and ultimately wrong. This is what the post and many commenters are attempting to get across: being nice is not the problem, but claiming to be nice while, in fact, acting like a passive-aggressive, cowardly asshole is. It's not women hating guys for being nice, it's hating guys for using "nice" as an excuse for problematic behaviour.

It's also worth noting that Nice Guy behaviour can also occur in and be a warning sign of an abusive fuckhead, so there's that too.