Nice Guys Suck

[damselgaming]

if a man spends months trying to win a woman over, usually by being her emotional dumping ground, obviously it does not entitle him to sex..but if the woman isn't interested, why does she allow this to continue so long? obviously the woman is getting something out of this, and it's fair for her to assume the 'kindness' is given for it's own sake..at first.

but come on, it becomes pretty obvious pretty fast that the guy you friend-zoned is still interested in you and is doing all this with a heart/head filled with hope.

so yes, in this case he is a victim, his weakness is being exploited.

Or, she thinks of the guy as a friend and confides in him because he's a friend. It's not exactly her fault that this friendly behavior isn't on the level, and the situation she ends up in (she has a friend who is attracted to her, she isn't attracted to, and who she doesn't want to lose the friendship of) isn't exactly an easy one to defuse.

This a thousand times over. It's bad for both parties when the inevitable 'I'm just not that into you.' comes up because you will lose a friend OR you will have to try and ignore the seething disappointment.

 

[trooper6]

if a man spends months trying to win a woman over, usually by being her emotional dumping ground, obviously it does not entitle him to sex..but if the woman isn't interested, why does she allow this to continue so long? obviously the woman is getting something out of this, and it's fair for her to assume the 'kindness' is given for it's own sake..at first.

but come on, it becomes pretty obvious pretty fast that the guy you friend-zoned is still interested in you and is doing all this with a heart/head filled with hope.

so yes, in this case he is a victim, his weakness is being exploited.

Here is where we are going to disagree. Most Nice Guys (TM) dishonest liars. They say, "I want to be your friend, that is why I"m being so kind to you and listening to your problems."
And the woman says, "Great, because you are in the freind-zone."

Then they have a friendship. Friends talk about each others feelings and hang out. But the Nice Guy (TM) lied to the girl about wanting to be friends just so he can hope to get into her pants...she is not leading him on, he is not the victim. He's a lying, deceiving, manipulative creep.

I have lots of female (and male) friends who tell me their problems, and we go out to dinner and hang out and everything is fine between us. Why? Because I'm not faking friendship in order to get in their pants and then blaming them for not coming around. When I listen to her problems I'm not being an emotional dumping ground...I'm being a friend...and actual friend, not one who is only listening for ulterior motives. And my friends listen to me in return. When I'm stressed out about some creepy thing at work, she is there for me. When she wants to blow off some steam about her boyfriend, I'm there for her. I never feel aggrieved because I'm her actual friend.

 

[GrandmaFunk]

Or, she thinks of the guy as a friend and confides in him because he's a friend. It's not exactly her fault that this friendly behavior isn't on the level, and the situation she ends up in (she has a friend who is attracted to her, she isn't attracted to, and who she doesn't want to lose the friendship of) isn't exactly an easy one to defuse.

double-standard ahoy!

it's not her fault that he isn't clear about his emotions, but it is his fault that she knowingly keeps the situation going because "she doesn't want to lose the friendship".

Im not saying it's not a complicated situation, nor am i saying the blame is all on the woman....i'm just trying to point out that these situations usually only happen when BOTH parties are contributing to the "Nice Guy" dynamic.

 

[cairocat]

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

Yup, I noticed the mixed message as well. It nearly felt like us introverted guys, who don't have to be Nice Guys, are now, by Lara at least, condemned to loneliness.

Pretty sure she was just talking about what she's attracted to personally.

 

[GrandmaFunk]

...And the woman says, "Great, because you are in the freind-zone."

Then they have a friendship.

Ya, that's not actually a friendship. that's the friend zone.

if you think it's the same as a real friendship, you're deceiving yourself just as much as the nice guy is.

taking offers of "lets just be friends" at face value stops being a valid response for either gender when you're over 20.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Or, she thinks of the guy as a friend and confides in him because he's a friend. It's not exactly her fault that this friendly behavior isn't on the level, and the situation she ends up in (she has a friend who is attracted to her, she isn't attracted to, and who she doesn't want to lose the friendship of) isn't exactly an easy one to defuse.

double-standard ahoy!

it's not her fault that he isn't clear about his emotions, but it is his fault that she knowingly keeps the situation going because "she doesn't want to lose the friendship".

Im not saying it's not a complicated situation, nor am i saying the blame is all on the woman....i'm just trying to point out that these situations usually only happen when BOTH parties are contributing to the "Nice Guy" dynamic.

Well, the unattracted party in this particular situation *can* string the attracted party along, but that would be A) kind of a dick move, and B)a pretty uncommon move. Generally people say something along the lines of "I'm not attracted to you, but I value your friendship." That doesn't strike me as contributing to the dynamic.

 

[laserwulf]

As a reformed Nice Guy, I've learned that the best friend->lover tactic just isn't effective. Heck, the one time that actually worked for me, she & I realized that we just weren't a good match romantically. Others' results may vary, but none of my worthwhile relationships happened without the risk of rejection at some point. And that feeling you get when you go out on a limb & kiss her, and she kisses you back, is freakin' awesome.

 

[StudiousOctopus]

Nice Guy tm stuff reminds me of the SMBC theatre sketch 'Just Friendship' > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH79IeSe0I0

Nice stuff anyway, I really like reading Love FAQ.

 

[trooper6]

...And the woman says, "Great, because you are in the freind-zone."

Then they have a friendship.

Ya, that's not actually a friendship. that's the friend zone.

if you think it's the same as a real friendship, you're deceiving yourself just as much as the nice guy is.

taking offers of "lets just be friends" at face value stops being a valid response for either gender when you're over 20.

Let's see...I'm 39, and have lots of friends of all genders. When women tell me they are not attracted to me, I believe them and behave accordingly. And I've never had any problems. I've met a couple creepy female versions of the Nice Guy (TM) who were passive-aggresive liars...but thankfully not too many. I've had many a great relationship (romantic and otherwise), and take responsibility for my actions and my emotions. I'm honest in my dealings with others and I have no bitterness towards women.

Also, if there is someone I like, rather than passive-aggressive ulterior motive "friendship" with her, I'll tell her. And if she rejects the offer then I decide, can I be friends with her at the moment considering my feelings? If I can, then I do and we are friends. If I can't, then I take space until I can.

So, I'm doing pretty fine. I don't get used or dumped on, I don't use or dump on others.

 

[GrandmaFunk]

last point: about the whole "but they're liars!" side of things.

yes, they lie.

they lie when they say that they're ok with being just friends, they lie when they say that they don't mind hearing you complain about your boyfriend..but mostly: they lie to themselves.

Nice Guys in general are NOT malicious. they're misguided, they're foolish and yes, they're bad at being truthful(to themselves and others) but they are not going out and preying on women.

no guy wants to be in the Nice Guy position, most guys that are like this don't even know it...they're just doing their best trying to sort out their feelings and trying to get just what the heck women want.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

Good to see some clarification there, but I still take issue with this:

'And next time, be honest about your intentions from the very get-go.'

So you should immediately ask someone out if you find them attractive without any attempt to get to know them, forgoing any chance to see if you're actually right for each other in the first place? Okay sure...that's not impetuous or anything...

As for this whole 'Nice guy' thing I think it comes down to intent and sense of entitlement, this being a fairly good summary:

I'll try to add a good example here: "She should love me! I deserve her because I listened to her problems, gave her gifts, and treated her with respect. I am entitled to have her because I was nice, whether she likes me or not."

That's completely different than: "I am nice and polite to women. If they don't like me then I will continue to be nice to them, and try to find someone else."

The former is obssessive and uncapable of accepting their feelings are unrequited, who's only stake in being 'nice' is the hope of being emotionally/physically compensated, while the latter doesn't need to be told twice and won't hold some petty grudge over the person they were after. If we can just level it down to that, it'd be great, at the moment I'm a little concerned that people seem to be conflating introverted, reticent, coy or passive/accomadating behaviour with that of the 'Nice guy'. And another thing:

I know I'm not either version of a "nice guy".

Ditto, it just comes off as arrogant to hear anyone proclaim themselves to be a nice guy/'nice guy'. I think neutral would be the best description for me.

oh well, back to blowin shit up I go!

I hope that's a game you're talking about there Jace...otherwise I might class you as Chaotic Nuetral. :3

 

[Ariseishirou]

...And the woman says, "Great, because you are in the freind-zone."

Then they have a friendship.

Ya, that's not actually a friendship. that's the friend zone.

if you think it's the same as a real friendship, you're deceiving yourself just as much as the nice guy is.

taking offers of "lets just be friends" at face value stops being a valid response for either gender when you're over 20.

Really? So when I tell a man I'm not interested in him romantically, but offer that we can still be friends, and he accepts - I should just assume he's lying to my face and using it as a part of a long term strategy to get into my pants? If he was like "nope, no thanks I wanted you as a romantic partner but I'm not really interested in a friendship" I'd completely respect that. But, instead, he lies and accepts the offer of friendship and assuming he has done so in good faith makes me the bad guy?

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw.

Sorry dude, I have lots of "actual friends" who are male. It is entirely possible. We are all over 20. They are not lying fucks. Many of them are married. We just happen to have no romantic connection. The Nice Guy in this scenario is nothing but a skeezy, lying fuck. And that just ain't anybody's fault but his.

 

[Stevepinto3]

Oh, so THIS is the guide to being able to date any female you could ever imagine. Thank God women are such simple creatures that the same thing works for all of them. [/sarcasm]

Yeah, I'm incredibly awkward and my current girlfriend somehow finds that to be fine. Probably because I'm NOT a supernova. A lot of people aren't. And if you try to be a supernova, you'll attract people that you don't even like. So screw being a supernova, be yourself.

I think you're kind of missing the point. When she said "be a supernova" she basically meant "be yourself". She's demonstrating that being "nice" isn't a personality, it's just a trait. A personality is the sum of what you do and how you act. You should play up what your good at and people (ones that you actually like) will be probably be a lot more attracted to you.

Here's a phenomenon that needs to go away, the perceived dichotomy of either being totally nice or a complete jerk. There's a whole gulf of people in between, you're never just one or the other. You don't need to be a center-of-attention jerk-off just to get women, and being a bit shy or awkward isn't a going to make you forever alone.

 

[GrandmaFunk]

Well, the unattracted party in this particular situation *can* string the attracted party along, but that would be A) kind of a dick move, and B)a pretty uncommon move.

I'd bet it's just as common as Nice Guys are.

and all it takes is going through that once or twice in your teens to make you a Nice Guy for life.

 

[trooper6]

So you should immediately ask someone out if you find them attractive without any attempt to get to know them, forgoing any chance to see if you're actually right for each other in the first place? Okay sure...that's not impetuous or anything...

Well you ask someone out in order to get to know them better to see if you might possibly have some chemistry (romantic, political, social, intellectual, etc).

That first outing doesn't have to be all romantic and high pressure either...I find meeting for lunch or coffee to be the best thing. It is low key and mellow. You meet, eat, and talk...get to know each other better. If there is no spark then you don't go out again, if there is a possible spark, you go out to another lunch or dinner or whatever and continue the get to know each other process.

 

[GrandmaFunk]

he lies and accepts the offer of friendship and assuming he has done so in good faith makes me the bad guy?

it doesn't make you the bad guy, it makes you painfully naive.

Sorry dude, I have lots of "actual friends" who are male. It is entirely possible. We are all over 20. They are not lying fucks. Many of them are married. We just happen to have no romantic connection.

how many of those started off as dates you rejected? because that's the context being discussed, not whether opposite genders can be real friends in general.

 

[trooper6]

Well, the unattracted party in this particular situation *can* string the attracted party along, but that would be A) kind of a dick move, and B)a pretty uncommon move.

I'd bet it's just as common as Nice Guys are.

and all it takes is going through that once or twice in your teens to make you a Nice Guy for life.

Or you go get some therapy or do work on yourself or you take responsibility for yourself.

Was I treated poorly in high school? Yeah. Do I let that define me now? No.

If you are weighed down with high school baggage, you need to work on that first before you start dating. It isn't fair to you or your partner.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Well, the unattracted party in this particular situation *can* string the attracted party along, but that would be A) kind of a dick move, and B)a pretty uncommon move.

I'd bet it's just as common as Nice Guys are.

and all it takes is going through that once or twice in your teens to make you a Nice Guy for life.

Because people apparently never outgrow their inexperienced high school years? News to me. Being strung along sucks (and for the record isn't just something women do), but it's pretty easy to recognize and avoid once you know what it looks like.

 

[Ariseishirou]

how many of those started off as dates you rejected? because that's the context being discussed, not whether opposite genders can be real friends in general.

Several. They moved on romantically, got other girlfriends or wives, while we still hung out together and played D&D or vidya and generally had good times.

So yeah, not every man who tells a woman that he's okay with being "just friends" is completely full of shit, thus it would be unfair of me to assume they all are.

No matter what you tell me, my default position is never going to be that all or even most men are passive-aggressive liars. I know from experience - know too many good men - to accept that as true. They're not. You might be, or the men you know might be, but that's on you and them, not men in general.

 

[GrandmaFunk]

Being strung along sucks (and for the record isn't just something women do), but it's pretty easy to recognize and avoid once you know what it looks like.

much like it's pretty easy to recognize when you are the one stringing someone else along.

and much like it's pretty easy to recognize that your "friend" is actually interested in you and is holding out hope that being 'Nice' will pay off.

which is why the whole "but I don't want to lose the friendship" line is a huge cop-out that amounts to "i don't want to give up my benefits".