Nice Guys Suck

[trooper6]

how many of those started off as dates you rejected? because that's the context being discussed, not whether opposite genders can be real friends in general.

The context isn't dates a person has rejected. Because the Nice Guy doesn't ask for dates in the first place. He is too passive-aggressive and dishonest for that. Instead he starts of with the lie of ulterior motive friendship, never giving the girl the chance to reject him in the first place.

Creepy nice-guys/gals? I don't have friendships with them.

On the other hand, I have had and continue to have friendships (real friendships) with ex-girlfriends, with people who asked me out (before a fake friendship) who I turned down, and people who I asked out and who turned me down. I also have people I've asked out, who turned me down (or vice-versa) who I haven't built friendships with. People who are upfront enough to be honest and just ask a person out rather than doing the passive-aggressive "friend" thing, are usually mature and honest enough with their own feelings to be trusted to have an actual friendship with without their being something creepy underneath.

 

[GrandmaFunk]

So yeah, not every man who tells a woman that he's okay with being "just friends" is completely full of shit, thus it would be unfair of me to assume they all are.

would it be fair of you to assume that some might be?

because that's what I'm trying to communicate.

 

[Naeras]

how many of those started off as dates you rejected? because that's the context being discussed, not whether opposite genders can be real friends in general.

Out of the ~10 girls I consider "close friends", there's one I actually fell in love with. She rejected me, I got disappointed, life went on, my infatuation went away, we're still close friends today. Why? Because I realized that she's got every right to not want to date me, but I still enjoy being her friend enough to get my head out of my ass and get over her.

For all my other close female friends? They're all awesome, I just never actually fell in love with them. Not all male-female-friend-relationships starts with one of them falling in love with the other.

 

[damselgaming]

Being strung along sucks (and for the record isn't just something women do), but it's pretty easy to recognize and avoid once you know what it looks like.

much like it's pretty easy to recognize when you are the one stringing someone else along.

and much like it's pretty easy to recognize that your "friend" is actually interested in you and is holding out hope that being 'Nice' will pay off.

which is why the whole "but I don't want to lose the friendship" line is a huge cop-out that amounts to "i don't want to give up my benefits".

Well, maybe that person holding out should just move on maybe? It's not a one way street. I am still friends with people that have claimed to be desperately in ,ove with me, and they moved on, like people do.

 

[Ariseishirou]

Well, the unattracted party in this particular situation *can* string the attracted party along, but that would be A) kind of a dick move, and B)a pretty uncommon move.

I'd bet it's just as common as Nice Guys are.

and all it takes is going through that once or twice in your teens to make you a Nice Guy for life.

Are you joking? That is a messed up thing to assert. I had a male friend string me along when I was a teenager, too, when he was actually interested in a friend of mine and using our friendship to get to her. The writing was on the wall but I was in denial, telling myself that maybe, if I just held on long enough he'd notice me... It didn't ruin me for relationships forever. I realized I'd let it happen, that I was never going to get what I wanted out of him, and I moved on. Asked out another guy I liked. That is what a normal, well-adjusted adult does. They don't remain mired in the bad habits of their developmental years forever - they learn, grow, and mature.

Insisting that men - or people in general? - can never learn from their mistakes is one hell of a skewed and immature worldview. As is blaming someone for believing another person when they lie. No dude, it's the liar's fault. Always is and always will be.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Being strung along sucks (and for the record isn't just something women do), but it's pretty easy to recognize and avoid once you know what it looks like.

much like it's pretty easy to recognize when you are the one stringing someone else along.

and much like it's pretty easy to recognize that your "friend" is actually interested in you and is holding out hope that being 'Nice' will pay off.

which is why the whole "but I don't want to lose the friendship" line is a huge cop-out that amounts to "i don't want to give up my benefitsfriendship".

Fixed for you.

Being someone's friend isn't stringing them along. Even if the psychic powers you apparently have fail to reveal that your friend isn't over being attracted to you.

Hey, speaking of psychic powers and people not getting over high school, you know what this whole thread reminds me of?

 

[Justin1221]

I'm SO glad I read this. I almost got mad when reading the title, but now, I've really learned something by reading this.

Skip being the Nice Guy(TradeSnark) and don't settle for being a Casanova unless you're just looking to get laid.

Instead, be a Supernova!

 

[GrandmaFunk]

..Because the Nice Guy doesn't ask for dates in the first place. He is too passive-aggressive and dishonest for that. Instead he starts of with the lie of ulterior motive friendship, never giving the girl the chance to reject him in the first place.

I guess this is where the conversation falls apart, because we're apparently using differing definitions of what a Nice Guy actually is.

you're pretty much stuck on the idea that Nice Guy behaviour is premeditated and manipulative, whereas I see Nice Guy as a dynamic/pattern that some guys evolve into despite themselves.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

So you should immediately ask someone out if you find them attractive without any attempt to get to know them, forgoing any chance to see if you're actually right for each other in the first place? Okay sure...that's not impetuous or anything...

Well you ask someone out in order to get to know them better to see if you might possibly have some chemistry (romantic, political, social, intellectual, etc).

That first outing doesn't have to be all romantic and high pressure either...I find meeting for lunch or coffee to be the best thing. It is low key and mellow. You meet, eat, and talk...get to know each other better. If there is no spark then you don't go out again, if there is a possible spark, you go out to another lunch or dinner or whatever and continue the get to know each other process.

Two things there, the first being from the perspective of the person you like some random stranger coming up to you asks if you want to grab a drink without a word prior, that'll go well I'm sure, that doesn't come off a little creepy or anything. The second and more important being that with that statement she appears to completely negate the concept of relationships being born out of friendships. I see plenty of people IRL and on this very site who talk about how their significant other was their good friend for quite a while before they decided to start seeing each other. I have other issues about the very heteronormative presumptions about relationship dynamics which it denotes and no, adding a gender nuetral clause at the bottom of the article doesn't give automatic exemption, but it's probably best not to get into that...

 

[Ariseishirou]

So yeah, not every man who tells a woman that he's okay with being "just friends" is completely full of shit, thus it would be unfair of me to assume they all are.

would it be fair of you to assume that some might be?

because that's what I'm trying to communicate.

Nope. I'm going to assume that grown men can weigh the consequences of their own actions, and be honest, forthright, and truthful about their intentions and their feelings. And if they can't, that's on them.

It's only what I'd expect of myself.

 

[Piorn]

From my experience, it usually goes like this.
I get really good friends with a girl I like, spend alot of time with her and then BAM, she's suddenly in a relationship with some guy she just met. Why does this happen?

 

[trooper6]

From my experience, it usually goes like this.
I get really good friends with a girl I like, spend alot of time with her and then BAM, she's suddenly in a relationship with some guy she just met. Why does this happen?

Because the guy asked her out and you never did. Rather you decided to be friends with her.

 

[GrandmaFunk]

Well, the unattracted party in this particular situation *can* string the attracted party along, but that would be A) kind of a dick move, and B)a pretty uncommon move.

I'd bet it's just as common as Nice Guys are.

and all it takes is going through that once or twice in your teens to make you a Nice Guy for life.

Are you joking? That is a messed up thing to assert. I had a male friend string me along when I was a teenager, too, when he was actually interested in a friend of mine and using our friendship to get to her. The writing was on the wall but I was in denial, telling myself that maybe, if I just held on long enough he'd notice me... It didn't ruin me for relationships forever. I realized I'd let it happen, that I was never going to get what I wanted out of him, and I moved on. Asked out another guy I liked. That is what a normal, well-adjusted adult does. They don't remain mired in the bad habits of their developmental years forever - they learn, grow, and mature.

Insisting that men - or people in general? - can never learn from their mistakes is one hell of a skewed and immature worldview. As is blaming someone for believing another person when they lie. No dude, it's the liar's fault. Always is and always will be.

I think I'm losing track of tone by replying to too many lines of thought at once and my points keep getting lost.

I'm trying to highlight POTENTIAL scenarios that lead to SOME ppl falling into these pattern.

I do NOT think having a bad experience in your teens locks in your dating habits for life, simply that it CAN happen for SOME ppl, and yes, that's sad and unfortunate.

Just like I DON'T think everyone lies when they say they want to be friends, but i DO think it's silly to not expect that it IS a possibility.

---

All my posts amount to one thing: I'm interested in trying to find out what things lead ppl into becoming said "Nice Guys".

simply demonizing these ppl and writing them off as manipulative liars comes off as mean and kind of futile.

 

[Viral_Lola]

I like nice guys. I can work with them on naughty bedroom skills.

 

[lord.jeff]

he lies and accepts the offer of friendship and assuming he has done so in good faith makes me the bad guy?

it doesn't make you the bad guy, it makes you painfully naive.

Sorry dude, I have lots of "actual friends" who are male. It is entirely possible. We are all over 20. They are not lying fucks. Many of them are married. We just happen to have no romantic connection.

how many of those started off as dates you rejected? because that's the context being discussed, not whether opposite genders can be real friends in general.

I hang out with a former girlfriend and two girls that have turned me down in the past regularly, with no romantic feelings for any of them anymore.

 

[trooper6]

Two things there, the first being from the perspective of the person you like some random stranger coming up to you asks if you want to grab a drink without a word prior, that'll go well I'm sure, that doesn't come off a little creepy or anything. The second and more important being that with that statement she appears to completely negate the concept of relationships being born out of friendships. I see plenty of people IRL and on this very site who talk about how their significant other was their good friend for quite a while before they decided to start seeing each other. I have other issues about the very heteronormative presumptions about relationship dynamics which it denotes and no, adding a gender nuetral clause at the bottom of the article doesn't give automatic exemption, but it's probably best not to get into that...

Well I don't think you should ask out a person you have never had a conversation with (unless we are talking about online dating). Generally, conversations are involved first.

As for friends becoming romantic. Sure it happens...but in my experience, not that often...and usually both friends are maintaining the hots for each other the whole time, just not able to act on it at the moment. But everyone's experience on that level is different.

Anyway, to address the heteronormative presumptions about relationship dynamics in the response...I can't speak for Lara, but following much of the reading I've done on Nice Guy Syndrome, I believe that Nice Guy Syndrome is basically rooted in misogyny and sexism. It's about male privilege and entitlement to women's bodies. It is about objectifying women. Because of that, Nice Guy Syndrome is not going to work itself out the same way in same-sex relationships. In many ways, Nice Guy Syndrome is a problem of heteronormativity. It is a problem of patriarchal relationship codes. It is a problem of the predator/prey understanding male/female sexuality in the first place.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

I object to your Disney Princesses analogy.

I treat every woman I might want a relationship as if they are a Disney princess and I am the love interest character, and you know what? So far it's paid off every single time.

I firmly believe in what Steve Martin said, 'I think people should watch more movies, everything you need to know about life can be found in the movies.'

Treat your life like a Disney movie, find a girl who wants to remember what it's like to be a Disney Princess (you'll find if you do the former the latter will just happen), and life should work out alright.

http://weheartit.com/entry/18071702