Nice Guys Suck

[Jordi]

you people do realise that this is the opinion of ONE woman?
bias is inevitable, she likes extroverted guys, that's it, and while that is generally an attractive trait, you may just find another girl who likes the quiet type.

It is the opinion of one woman who is being enabled by a website that we presumably all like, and she should be held accountable when she steps over the line. If it's just her taste in men, she should say that. But she's making these statements as if their universal facts. Furthermore, the nice guys that this article is about (that is unsuccessful nice guys) have generally not found that there are other girls that like their type. Which is kind of another problem I have with this: she is basically kicking a demographic that is already down.

And seriously, if you hate romantically unsuccessful nice people then you have absolutely no business writing a love column.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I read rants about the evils of Nice Guys, it feels a lot like blaming the victim.

The problem is that Nice Guys (TM) aren't victims...for the most part they are passive-aggressive manipulators who harass their female friends. Tt the extreme end they end up like a couple of those guys like George Sodini who killed women in a gym in Pennsylvania because women don't date nice guys like him.

If you think you're a victim because a woman won't date you...then you are a Nice Guy (TM) and not a nice guy. No woman (no person) is obligated to date you. You are not owed a date by anyone. Not getting a date doesn't make you a victim. A woman turning you down for a date doesn't make her a victimizer.

Being rejected by someone you're in love with doesn't really make you a victim, but it makes you feel like it. You're hurt and it's more or less "caused" by the person that rejected you. That's just how it works. Of course, there can be a difference between what you feel and what you think. Rationally speaking, of course it's not the fault of the rejecter, but tell that to someone who's heart has just been broken.
Of course no woman (or man) is never obligated to date you, but when you don't see what's wrong with you or your approach, isn't it quite natural to ask "why doesn't s/he like me?"? That's not "disrespecting their opinion/choice". You can't expect all people to just always instantly say "oh well, on to the next one".

As for the entitlement issue: I think a certain sense of entitlement is natural. I mean, if you love yourself enough to be self confident, presumably you think you deserve certain things. Surely you think you deserved some of the things that you have. Hell, I'm pretty sure a variant the phrase "you gotta earn it" was used in this thread. So how do you earn it? By happening to be naturally confident? By having many interests? By being good looking? By working hard for it? It seems a little hard to define. So is it really so crazy that someone who has been trying his best for (let's say) 25 loveless years maybe feels a little bit cheated by life when all around him everybody has been in dozens relationships seemingly for no reason at all? If you ever felt like you deserved love, can you blame someone who doesn't have it for feeling the same?
Also, it seems quite natural to think you deserved a relationshup more if you spent a period of time (voluntarily) doing everything for someone you like, compared to some random dude who is being a jerk to her.
I'm not saying that emo-ing to the internet about it is a great idea, but in moderation it's a very natural and understandable feeling. And people who already have that something should probably reflect on how they would feel if they hadn't before bitching about it.

oddly the clarification doesn't feel any less insulting and still amounts to : girls don't want nice guys, you're better off being a jerk than being yourself.

You misread it. Gals do want nice guys who are themselves...and those selves are interesting (which might be introverted or extroverted). What they don't want is jerks. Many of the so-called Nice Guys (TM) are not actually nice guys, but jerks...which is why women don't like them.

And (in my experience) many, many, many more self-called nice guys are actually just that: genuinely nice guys. The thing is: I think a lot of nice guys didn't even come up with that label themselves. It's what everybody keeps telling us is the reason that we aren't successful in love. So people start identifying with that label (not as a sole identifier, but as one of many labels that applies to them), and when someone starts saying that all nice guys are deceitful, manipulative bastards that is extremely offensive. Whether you later put a little trademark sign after it or not. And what's even more offensive is the constant insinuation in this thread that if you are unsuccessful in love, you must not be a (genuinely) nice guy, but the manipulative asshole variety.

Of course it's not true that women only want jerks, and it's not right to think or say so, but I'd still like to elicit why it seems so. First of all, it's because people tell you ("you shouldn't be so nice"). But I think the real problem with nice guys is that they care and invest more (too much). I'd say that the "nice guy approach" is basically to get into a relationship through friendship. Note that this is different from trying to "get into her pants" (I'm not saying you can't be a nice person if that's what you're pursuing, but I don't think that fits romantically speaking that fits the "nice guy profile". And often it's not a premeditated thing either, so they don't just become friends for the relationship. But when they eventually do fall in love with their friend, the situation is a lot more complicated then it would have been if they had just asked that person out (back when they weren't really attracted to them yet). Rejection hurts and costs more, namely a friendship (possibly). And that's when you actually did get rejected instead of just doing nothing at all.

It's just not a very optimal "strategy". People who care and invest less are able to iterate much faster, which will help them be more successful if only because of sheer numbers (I also think that people are generally more attracted to this approach, and that this'll give you more practice). But not really caring about the person who's pants you're trying to get into can often feel like kind of a dick move. But the thing is: this nice guy approach is more a thing of incompetence, not malice.

If you, or Lara, wants to address that incompetence, then by all means do. But don't go around flaming an entire group of perfectly nice people. If you want to address liars, call them "liars". If you want to say "not all people who say they're nice are actually nice", say that. Saying "nice guys are jerks" makes about as much sense as saying "black guys are white".

Anyway, to address the heteronormative presumptions about relationship dynamics in the response...I can't speak for Lara, but following much of the reading I've done on Nice Guy Syndrome, I believe that Nice Guy Syndrome is basically rooted in misogyny and sexism. It's about male privilege and entitlement to women's bodies. It is about objectifying women. Because of that, Nice Guy Syndrome is not going to work itself out the same way in same-sex relationships. In many ways, Nice Guy Syndrome is a problem of heteronormativity. It is a problem of patriarchal relationship codes. It is a problem of the predator/prey understanding male/female sexuality in the first place.

You're obviously using a different definition of "nice guy" that I am, but let me just say that in my experience nice guys are usually as far from misogynists and sexists as could be. The problem rather seems to be that they have too much respect for other people (including the women they're attracted to), which leads them to approaching dating with too much caution. They don't just ask women out, because they don't view them as sex objects and would rather get to know them as friends first (and partially because they're afraid to).

 

[PlasticTree]

Great one, Lara. Although you have probably noticed that by now, since this article has about 3 times the replies you normally get. I talked about how good you are at addressing your audience before, but it turns out we're not just gamers and geeks: mosts Escapists are both male and nice(tm) as well.

 

[Sneezeguard]

I think the whole problem with the nice guy thing is how do you tell or show a girl you're into them and when? You like the girl/guy/whatever and you want keep the ball rolling (don't want wanna quietly fade away or be forgotten) so you talk and keep talking but nothing ever happens cause you don't know how to made something happen, Till all you think you can do is keep talking.

Everybody loves confidence, But it ain't just something you can pick up and get. It's earned through experience and support. There's a bit of a paradox there, it usually requires confidence to go out and do something and earn experience but confidence usually comes from experience and it's all to easy to be burnt from a bad experience. So it usually ends up those with confidence keep get more confident and those without stagnate or become more withdrawn.

Damn world everything's circular whole chicken and the egg thing it's amazing anything happens.
Sucks when you're out of the loop and don't know how to get back in.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

There's one thing the article didn't mention, and it really should: the Nice Guy(TM) trait of listening to every little problem, being there for the girl, helping out with stuff, fixing her computer[footnote]or her car, or whatever; this varies depending on what the guy is skilled at[/footnote], and whatever else they wind up doing? It's basically the guy doing all of the less pleasant things expected of a boyfriend, without getting any of the pleasant benefits. These guys really need to learn that they're pretty much giving away the milk for free by doing that, and the girl isn't going to be interested in buying the cow. People who are just friends don't usually do that kind of thing. Neither should people who are "just friends" and want to be more. This is especially important, because the guys who do this are almost exclusively young and inexperienced with dating. For most of them, it takes a lot of heart break before they realize what's going on, if they ever do; a lot of them just go from unhappily single to bitterly forever alone.

 

[upgray3dd]

When both sides seem to genuinely see themselves as a victim, it seems like something is going on that no one is getting.

How about this: Nice guy becomes friends with a girl. She starts asking him for favors because he is so nice, he agrees. She starts thinking of him as more and more nice, and he starts falling in love with her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and just asks him to do more stuff for her. He becomes resentful of doing all of the stuff for her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and when he gets sick of it and snaps she thinks it is coming out of nowhere. Both people become bitter and are convinced that the other was secretly a jerk all along

The problem is with him, but he isn't some kind of Cartoonish evil manipulator. Does that seem reasonable, or am I just completely off-base?

 

[MasochisticAvenger]

"but if you're ever going to find love, the kind that changes your life and makes you the man you were meant to be"

That's right, guys. If you don't go out and find love you're not the man you were "meant to be". It doesn't matter if you're not interested in love... that just means you are a worthless human being because apparently you're only worth a damn if you have someone who loves you.

I'm sorry that was probably a bit harsh, but that line really rubbed me the wrong way. I am someone who isn't really interested in love, relationships and all that crap, so does that make me less of a man in your eyes?

 

[SwagLordYoloson]

Really sounds like the author got burned bad by a nice guy who she liked but he was to shy or something to act on it. lol.

 

[Spirit356]

You know it seems that recently there has been a massive backlash against 'Nice Guys' and while I do think this is appropriate in some respects I have to argue that for a lot of guys being the 'Nice Guy' is the only thing thing that they believe will bring them close to the chance of a relationship.

Lets look at an example of the 'Nice Guy', he's most likely between the ages of 15-25, is not the best or worst looking guy in the bunch, doesn't have any real hobbies/interests/sports except for playing games/spending time on the internet. Now for most guys in this age group the only advice they typically get about meeting girls is from other guys (Which btw is a horrible source of information for this type of thing) or media (Which is somehow even worse). These are the guys who have been brought up thinking that the dating process is basically an algorithm. 'Oh yeah dude learn how to play guitar, chicks love musicians.' 'The babes love the guns brah.' It basically becomes 'Do x to get y' (With y always being of course a mate)

So lets look at our example guy. He's average in pretty much everyway, he has no discernible talents whatsoever he can show off to attract a mate, his physique is not astounding in any way whatsoever so what is this young man to do? Well he'll be nice, because in TV/Movies/Books etc nice guys always get the girl after she eventually learns that the other guys are all jerks and he's truly the special one for her. We're that generation. Stupid as it may be we've been brought up to think that by following the pattern (Entering the cheat code) we're guaranteed success.

Really when I look at it from that perspective I see 'Nice Guys' less as the Machiavellian orchestrators and more naive confused young men stuck on level one of the game of love and really, shouldn't we be giving these guys a hint?

 

[Ernil Menegil]

When both sides seem to genuinely see themselves as a victim, it seems like something is going on that no one is getting.

How about this: Nice guy becomes friends with a girl. She starts asking him for favors because he is so nice, he agrees. She starts thinking of him as more and more nice, and he starts falling in love with her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and just asks him to do more stuff for her. He becomes resentful of doing all of the stuff for her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and when he gets sick of it and snaps she thinks it is coming out of nowhere. Both people become bitter and are convinced that the other was secretly a jerk all along

The problem is with him, but he isn't some kind of Cartoonish evil manipulator. Does that seem reasonable, or am I just completely off-base?

It seems absolutely reasonable, yet both Mrs. Crigger and many commentators of this thread seem to believe that an entire demographic of people is thus worthy of demonization.

I completely and absolutely understand the point of this article, and I would normally support it. Sadly, it was horrendously worded, and it paints people who are incompetent and awkward at starting a relationship as universally manipulative and malicious.

Labelling is wrong, when one is attempting to reach the core of a truth.

 

[ReinWeisserRitter]

The lesson is "be a good person, but don't expect to succeed on that alone". It's a foundation, not the whole building. The people missing the point and crying that girls just want assholes is exactly what she's warning you not to do, geniuses.

 

[not_you]

Eh, I know I'm a nice guy, not a self-entitled over-expectant shit... (the trade-marked "nice guy")....

I've been told "one day" someone will recognise that, but until such time.... Their loss, no-one really knows how "nice" or "caring" I can be, maybe because of years of living in solitude, ignoring almost anything to do with anyone of importance...

I know it sounds like I'm a little "up myself" but, fuck it, no-one cares... The day someone does, then I might pretend they actually exist...

 

[Xeraxis]

Really when I look at it from that perspective I see 'Nice Guys' less as the Machiavellian orchestrators and more naive confused young men stuck on level one of the game of love and really, shouldn't we be giving these guys a hint?

The problem with that, though, is that most people don't bother giving hints or any meaningful advice to those types of guys (which I could say I am one of those "stuck" guys); they just spew the same tired cliches of "Be yourself" and "Have confidence", and fail to go into more specific or proficient detail.

Plus, it doesn't help when this person seems like she's implying that being nice, introverted or unsuccessful with love means that you are an incompetent dick who only want women for sex. Just ridiculous.

 

[DarkRyter]

Green Day has a song called nice guys finish last?

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

When both sides seem to genuinely see themselves as a victim, it seems like something is going on that no one is getting.

How about this: Nice guy becomes friends with a girl. She starts asking him for favors because he is so nice, he agrees. She starts thinking of him as more and more nice, and he starts falling in love with her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and just asks him to do more stuff for her. He becomes resentful of doing all of the stuff for her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and when he gets sick of it and snaps she thinks it is coming out of nowhere. Both people become bitter and are convinced that the other was secretly a jerk all along

The problem is with him, but he isn't some kind of Cartoonish evil manipulator. Does that seem reasonable, or am I just completely off-base?

Not only does it sound reasonable, it's the truth. The person I'm about to quote put it best:

You know it seems that recently there has been a massive backlash against 'Nice Guys' and while I do think this is appropriate in some respects I have to argue that for a lot of guys being the 'Nice Guy' is the only thing thing that they believe will bring them close to the chance of a relationship.

Lets look at an example of the 'Nice Guy', he's most likely between the ages of 15-25, is not the best or worst looking guy in the bunch, doesn't have any real hobbies/interests/sports except for playing games/spending time on the internet. Now for most guys in this age group the only advice they typically get about meeting girls is from other guys (Which btw is a horrible source of information for this type of thing) or media (Which is somehow even worse). These are the guys who have been brought up thinking that the dating process is basically an algorithm. 'Oh yeah dude learn how to play guitar, chicks love musicians.' 'The babes love the guns brah.' It basically becomes 'Do x to get y' (With y always being of course a mate)

So lets look at our example guy. He's average in pretty much everyway, he has no discernible talents whatsoever he can show off to attract a mate, his physique is not astounding in any way whatsoever so what is this young man to do? Well he'll be nice, because in TV/Movies/Books etc nice guys always get the girl after she eventually learns that the other guys are all jerks and he's truly the special one for her. We're that generation. Stupid as it may be we've been brought up to think that by following the pattern (Entering the cheat code) we're guaranteed success.

Really when I look at it from that perspective I see 'Nice Guys' less as the Machiavellian orchestrators and more naive confused young men stuck on level one of the game of love and really, shouldn't we be giving these guys a hint?

Nice Guys (TM) are inexperienced at dating, and they don't realize that chick flicks are just the female version of video games; fantasies, a "wouldn't it be nice if..." world of make believe. The whole thing with a girl eventually realizing that the guy who's always been there for her is the one for here? Yeah, that's an escapist fantasy for people who know that the world doesn't really work like that. The problem is that those of us who grew up on movies like that wouldn't know the world isn't like that unless we had first hand experience -- which the nice guys (TM) severely lack. We need to be building up these guys and teaching them where they're going wrong, not debasing them as assholes. Otherwise, they run a serious risk of growing up to be bitter old coots who die alone. Case in point:

Eh, I know I'm a nice guy, not a self-entitled over-expectant shit... (the trade-marked "nice guy")....

I've been told "one day" someone will recognise that, but until such time.... Their loss, no-one really knows how "nice" or "caring" I can be, maybe because of years of living in solitude, ignoring almost anything to do with anyone of importance...

I know it sounds like I'm a little "up myself" but, fuck it, no-one cares... The day someone does, then I might pretend they actually exist...

"but if you're ever going to find love, the kind that changes your life and makes you the man you were meant to be"

That's right, guys. If you don't go out and find love you're not the man you were "meant to be". It doesn't matter if you're not interested in love... that just means you are a worthless human being because apparently you're only worth a damn if you have someone who loves you.

I'm sorry that was probably a bit harsh, but that line really rubbed me the wrong way. I am someone who isn't really interested in love, relationships and all that crap, so does that make me less of a man in your eyes?

To both of you: I'm sorry, but you sound /incredibly/ bitter. These are the words of a person who has been rejected so many times that he has not only given up, but become actively angry at the world. And yeah, if you die with absolutely nobody left to mourn you, short of being the last person on the planet, that does suggest you're somewhat worthless as a person. There's a reason the Ghost of Christmas Future showed Scrooge all the people who would be happy at his death if he didn't change his ways.

P.S.: Even if you legitimately don't have a mating urge (which is unlikely; please don't get me started on "asexuals"), you should have some sort of urge to enjoy fraternal relationships. Humans are social creatures; not being interested in so much as friendship goes beyond being anti-social, and into sociopathic territory. You can't expect people to pay attention to you before you show them respect, either. Respect has to be earned, yes, but it's a two way street; if you refuse to show so much as basic human decency, nobody is ever going to show you any respect.

 

[trooper6]

The problem with that, though, is that most people don't bother giving hints or any meaningful advice to those types of guys (which I could say I am one of those "stuck" guys); they just spew the same tired cliches of "Be yourself" and "Have confidence", and fail to go into more specific or proficient detail.

Oh the advice is there. The main advice is "Ask her out for lunch." Unless you are up front with what you want, unless you are honest, unless you actually ask a gal out, you won't ever find success. Sure, lots of women you ask may turn you down. But then you pick yourself up and keep trying.

That's the basic. Also, having interests and a life. If you don't have any interests...then go get some.
Not being creepy. You'll have to ask friends of yours, preferably female ones, if you come off like a creeper. If you do, work on changing that.
Not being passive-aggressive. Don't be someone's friend in order to date them. Date them.
No means no. If they are not into you, back off. There are other fish in the sea.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

The problem with that, though, is that most people don't bother giving hints or any meaningful advice to those types of guys (which I could say I am one of those "stuck" guys); they just spew the same tired cliches of "Be yourself" and "Have confidence", and fail to go into more specific or proficient detail.

Oh the advice is there. The main advice is "Ask her out for lunch." Unless you are up front with what you want, unless you are honest, unless you actually ask a gal out, you won't ever find success. Sure, lots of women you ask may turn you down. But then you pick yourself up and keep trying.

That's the basic. Also, having interests and a life. Not being creepy. Not being passive-aggressive helps.

Also, not trying to date girls you're already friends with. It's easier to move on if you barely know the girl. It's when you were friends first that it gets awkward, because it sets up with a catch 22 where if you let it end the friendship, you lose a friend, but if you don't, you're stuck being friendly with a person that deep in your soul, you know you want more from. There is no way for it to end well without a period of separation -- one that exists more for you to let your head cool off and find some other girl than for her to realize what she's missing.

 

[trooper6]

Also, not trying to date girls you're already friends with. It's easier to move on if you barely know the girl. It's when you were friends first that it gets awkward, because it sets up with a catch 22 where if you let it end the friendship, you lose a friend, but if you don't, you're stuck being friendly with a person that deep in your soul, you know you want more from. There is no way for it to end well without a period of separation -- one that exists more for you to let your head cool off and find some other girl than for her to realize what she's missing.

Owyn_Merrilin is right, but all these awkward "nice guys" don't want to hear it. They think it is better to try and build a "friendship" with a person they are romantically interested in first (because they are too afraid of rejection to ask the person out). But if you are romantically interested in her, then you should start trying to hang out with her in a "let's see if we have a romantic connection" way not in a "just friends until maybe later" way.

Ask her out for lunch. If she says no, she's not interested. Move on. If she says, "Sure," then you go out to lunch and start seeing if you both might be able to make a deeper connection. Heck, it may turn out that you aren't interested in her in the end. Or you both click. Or you decide to be friends instead.

But you have to be honest with the her and yourself or it isn't going to work.

And no insecure self-loathing. If you have lots of insecure self-loathing, go to therapy. That's what it is for.
Or other thing that will help with your self-image and confidence. Start doing some sports, if you don't already. Take up some social hobbies. Get a makeover...whatever it takes. Get advice from people who know you in person.

 

[MasochisticAvenger]

"but if you're ever going to find love, the kind that changes your life and makes you the man you were meant to be"

That's right, guys. If you don't go out and find love you're not the man you were "meant to be". It doesn't matter if you're not interested in love... that just means you are a worthless human being because apparently you're only worth a damn if you have someone who loves you.

I'm sorry that was probably a bit harsh, but that line really rubbed me the wrong way. I am someone who isn't really interested in love, relationships and all that crap, so does that make me less of a man in your eyes?

To both of you: I'm sorry, but you sound /incredibly/ bitter. These are the words of a person who has been rejected so many times that he has not only given up, but become actively angry at the world. And yeah, if you die with absolutely nobody left to mourn you, short of being the last person on the planet, that does suggest you're somewhat worthless as a person. There's a reason the Ghost of Christmas Future showed Scrooge all the people who would be happy at his death if he didn't change his ways.

P.S.: Even if you legitimately don't have a mating urge (which is unlikely; please don't get me started on "asexuals"), you should have some sort of urge to enjoy fraternal relationships. Humans are social creatures; not being interested in so much as friendship goes beyond being anti-social, and into sociopathic territory. You can't expect people to pay attention to you before you show them respect, either. Respect has to be earned, yes, but it's a two way street; if you refuse to show so much as basic human decency, nobody is ever going to show you any respect.

When I said I had no interest in relationships (just for the record, I am not an asexual), I meant I had no interest in romantic relationships. I'll admit I'm not the most socialable guy on the planet, but I still do enjoy the friendships I have. I apologize if my original post was misleading or confusing.

 

[Zookz]

I generally agree with her, but that last paragraph was really not needed and is a slap in the face to people who are introverted.

Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead.

That is pretty much summed up as "Be extroverted, not introverted" and generalizing 'shy' with 'insecure/paranoid/dishonest'. The paragraph is just worded badly if you aren't trying to convey this.

I tend to see myself as a nice guy in that it honestly pains me to be a jerk and I try to avoid it as much as possible. Saying that people who are nice have secret agendas and can only prove their honesty by being outgoing seems ridiculous.

Trying to say you are nice, and that that has anything to do with what interests you or what passions you have is dumb, but I feel that simply "putting yourself out there" has little to do with actually fixing the nice guy(tm) issue.

Some of my passions aren't the sort of things that have me singing, dancing, or telling jokes. I express myself through drawing, imagining, creating, and through video games. Because I'm not one to express myself verbally it all the sudden labels my motives as cruel or harsh? I'm not really sure what she's getting at here.

I digress though. I honestly share the overall sentiment of what she is saying and I think I may of just taken it too personal. This issue has always sat in the back of my mind and I felt that this scratched it a bit, but not enough to put it to rest.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Huh. Guess I'm a Nice Guy (TM).

On the other hand, I've already accepted that I'll be foreveralone.jpg.

It's a strange position, I suppose.

Edit: Well, no, that's not entirely correct. I'm a mix of Nice Guy and Nice Guy (TM).

He thinks that as long as he mashes the right sequence of buttons (Listen to her problems! Give her presents! Cheer her up when she's sad!)

Yeah...what's wrong with doing those things, exactly? Expecting her to 'reward' you for doing those things is probably wrong, sure, but just listening to her problems, getting her things she likes, and cheering her up when she's upset are bad things?

I've definitely been going about this the wrong way, then. Time to go treat women like possessions! Apparently that works.