Nice Guys Suck

[Hat Man]

I would be a "Nice Guy" if I was in any way a nice guy.

I refuse to dance to the idiotic mating ritual of the homo sapiens, a dance of extremely high risk with shaky rewards and would require me to become something that I'm not. I'll probably die alone, but I'll have my dignity and a mountain of gold.

 

[Zaverexus]

Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate your straightforward and honest advice, there are a lot of people who just need to hear the hard truth and learn to deal with it.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

So for some reason, as soon as I started reading the second page, I started hear this:


Can't complain.

 

[Kopikatsu]

There's one thing the article didn't mention, and it really should: the Nice Guy(TM) trait of listening to every little problem, being there for the girl, helping out with stuff, fixing her computer[footnote]or her car, or whatever; this varies depending on what the guy is skilled at[/footnote], and whatever else they wind up doing? It's basically the guy doing all of the less pleasant things expected of a boyfriend, without getting any of the pleasant benefits. These guys really need to learn that they're pretty much giving away the milk for free by doing that, and the girl isn't going to be interested in buying the cow. People who are just friends don't usually do that kind of thing. Neither should people who are "just friends" and want to be more. This is especially important, because the guys who do this are almost exclusively young and inexperienced with dating. For most of them, it takes a lot of heart break before they realize what's going on, if they ever do; a lot of them just go from unhappily single to bitterly forever alone.

See, to me that sounds a lot like 'If you're interested in a girl, don't be there for her/help her when she needs it. You have to be aloof and manipulate her into being interested in you, because if you make yourself too easy to 'get', then nobody will want you. But if you play hard to get, then you're suddenly a prize to be won.'

'Course, I can't argue with that logic (Because I'm sure that it works), but it seems really...underhanded. Since when is being upfront/honest a bad thing? Also, it implies that most/all women are completely oblivious to affection. Why does the man have to be the super assertive one? Shouldn't it be a two way street?

Edit: Gender roles are bad!

 

[Paragon Fury]

So essentially you're still saying that nice guys are fucked; you're just trying to be more tactful about it.

I've always found these kinds of articles kind of ironic; as committed as their authors can be to not lying and helping people, they really can't come out and say something that most of us have already realized.

Some people are just never going to get "it". They're just too average (or below) or have nothing noticeable or notable about them, and it just will never happen for them. But then telling people that would probably lead to all sorts of psychological and sociological issues.

 

[Kopikatsu]

So essentially you're still saying that nice guys are fucked; you're just trying to be more tactful about it.

I've always found these kinds of articles kind of ironic; as committed as their authors can be to not lying and helping people, they really can't come out and say something that most of us have already realized.

Some people are just never going to get "it". They're just too average (or below) or have nothing noticeable or notable about them, and it just will never happen for them. But then telling people that would probably lead to all sorts of psychological and sociological issues.

No, nice guys just have to...

So don't settle for being "nice". Strive for "amazing", or "unforgettable", or "the greatest man I've ever met".

Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead.

...change practically everything about themselves (That is, turning into an extrovert from an introvert, which is half of your personality) and lose their inhibitions!

Oh wait, no, they're still fucked.
Not everyone can be 'special'. Some people are just average. And even more of us are below average. Attempting to force change won't get you anywhere, because starting a relationship with someone while pretending to be someone or something that you're not isn't going to work out.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

There's one thing the article didn't mention, and it really should: the Nice Guy(TM) trait of listening to every little problem, being there for the girl, helping out with stuff, fixing her computer[footnote]or her car, or whatever; this varies depending on what the guy is skilled at[/footnote], and whatever else they wind up doing? It's basically the guy doing all of the less pleasant things expected of a boyfriend, without getting any of the pleasant benefits. These guys really need to learn that they're pretty much giving away the milk for free by doing that, and the girl isn't going to be interested in buying the cow. People who are just friends don't usually do that kind of thing. Neither should people who are "just friends" and want to be more. This is especially important, because the guys who do this are almost exclusively young and inexperienced with dating. For most of them, it takes a lot of heart break before they realize what's going on, if they ever do; a lot of them just go from unhappily single to bitterly forever alone.

See, to me that sounds a lot like 'If you're interested in a girl, don't be there for her/help her when she needs it. You have to be aloof and manipulate her into being interested in you, because if you make yourself too easy to 'get', then nobody will want you. But if you play hard to get, then you're suddenly a prize to be won.'

'Course, I can't argue with that logic (Because I'm sure that it works), but it seems really...underhanded. Since when is being upfront/honest a bad thing? Also, it implies that most/all women are completely oblivious to affection. Why does the man have to be the super assertive one? Shouldn't it be a two way street?

Edit: Gender roles are bad!

Not aloof, exactly. Think about it; do you talk to your male friends about stuff like that, or dote on them like that? If yes, you're weird, but you aren't the demographic we're talking about here. If no, why would you do it for your female friends? That really is her boyfriend's job. Oh, don't get me wrong; you should always be there for your friend. But there's a difference between being there if she needs you, and being at her beck and call.

Edit: What I'm saying here is that Nice Guys(TM) tend to take on the duties of a boyfriend, without the girl asking for it. Said girl tends to be appreciative of the fact that they have someone around who will do all that for her, but not actually be romantically or sexually interested in him. What I was saying is Nice Guys(TM) tend to do all that stuff in the hopes that the girl will realize that he's the perfect boyfriend, when in reality all he's doing is giving her the few things that she would be interested in getting from him that you normally need a boyfriend to get. If she's not romantically interested in you, she's not romantically interested in you, and no amount of small favors (that go above and beyond what you usually give to a friend) are going to fix that.

 

[Kopikatsu]

There's one thing the article didn't mention, and it really should: the Nice Guy(TM) trait of listening to every little problem, being there for the girl, helping out with stuff, fixing her computer[footnote]or her car, or whatever; this varies depending on what the guy is skilled at[/footnote], and whatever else they wind up doing? It's basically the guy doing all of the less pleasant things expected of a boyfriend, without getting any of the pleasant benefits. These guys really need to learn that they're pretty much giving away the milk for free by doing that, and the girl isn't going to be interested in buying the cow. People who are just friends don't usually do that kind of thing. Neither should people who are "just friends" and want to be more. This is especially important, because the guys who do this are almost exclusively young and inexperienced with dating. For most of them, it takes a lot of heart break before they realize what's going on, if they ever do; a lot of them just go from unhappily single to bitterly forever alone.

See, to me that sounds a lot like 'If you're interested in a girl, don't be there for her/help her when she needs it. You have to be aloof and manipulate her into being interested in you, because if you make yourself too easy to 'get', then nobody will want you. But if you play hard to get, then you're suddenly a prize to be won.'

'Course, I can't argue with that logic (Because I'm sure that it works), but it seems really...underhanded. Since when is being upfront/honest a bad thing? Also, it implies that most/all women are completely oblivious to affection. Why does the man have to be the super assertive one? Shouldn't it be a two way street?

Edit: Gender roles are bad!

Not aloof, exactly. Think about it; do you talk to your male friends about stuff like that, or dote on them like that? If yes, you're weird, but you aren't the demographic we're talking about here. If no, why would you do it for your female friends? That really is her boyfriend's job. Oh, don't get me wrong; you should always be there for your friend. But there's a difference between being there if she needs you, and being at her beck and call.

Well...strictly speaking, I don't actually have any friends. (Being allergic to sunlight will do that to a person) But when I did, I didn't dote on my male friends, no, but I did of listen to their problems, fix things for free, and helped them generally sort their life out when they needed it. I did those things for my female friends as well.

That was the difference, though. I was there for anyone who needed someone to be there for them, but if I was interested in someone, then I'd be at their beck and call. Certainly.

Edit: Yeah, I get that you're saying that's a bad thing (On both counts), but that's just kind of who I am. Attempting to change that by force probably won't accomplish anything meaningful.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

There's one thing the article didn't mention, and it really should: the Nice Guy(TM) trait of listening to every little problem, being there for the girl, helping out with stuff, fixing her computer[footnote]or her car, or whatever; this varies depending on what the guy is skilled at[/footnote], and whatever else they wind up doing? It's basically the guy doing all of the less pleasant things expected of a boyfriend, without getting any of the pleasant benefits. These guys really need to learn that they're pretty much giving away the milk for free by doing that, and the girl isn't going to be interested in buying the cow. People who are just friends don't usually do that kind of thing. Neither should people who are "just friends" and want to be more. This is especially important, because the guys who do this are almost exclusively young and inexperienced with dating. For most of them, it takes a lot of heart break before they realize what's going on, if they ever do; a lot of them just go from unhappily single to bitterly forever alone.

See, to me that sounds a lot like 'If you're interested in a girl, don't be there for her/help her when she needs it. You have to be aloof and manipulate her into being interested in you, because if you make yourself too easy to 'get', then nobody will want you. But if you play hard to get, then you're suddenly a prize to be won.'

'Course, I can't argue with that logic (Because I'm sure that it works), but it seems really...underhanded. Since when is being upfront/honest a bad thing? Also, it implies that most/all women are completely oblivious to affection. Why does the man have to be the super assertive one? Shouldn't it be a two way street?

Edit: Gender roles are bad!

Not aloof, exactly. Think about it; do you talk to your male friends about stuff like that, or dote on them like that? If yes, you're weird, but you aren't the demographic we're talking about here. If no, why would you do it for your female friends? That really is her boyfriend's job. Oh, don't get me wrong; you should always be there for your friend. But there's a difference between being there if she needs you, and being at her beck and call.

Well...strictly speaking, I don't actually have any friends. (Being allergic to sunlight will do that to a person) But when I did, I didn't dote on my male friends, no, but I did of listen to their problems, fix things for free, and helped them generally sort their life out when they needed it. I did those things for my female friends as well.

That was the difference, though. I was there for anyone who needed someone to be there for them, but if I was interested in someone, then I'd be at their beck and call. Certainly.

Edit: Yeah, I get that you're saying that's a bad thing (On both counts), but that's just kind of who I am. Attempting to change that by force probably won't accomplish anything meaningful.

That's why it's especially painful; most Nice Guys(TM) (and far too many genuine nice guys) have to learn this the hard way, and that's assuming they ever learn it. Far too many go down the path of thinking girls want assholes, and wind up becoming bitter and, ironically, much bigger assholes than any guy the girls they wanted every dated, with a completely different breed of dickishness.

Oh, also, being there for your friends is a good trait; being a doormat is bad. Finding the fine line there is another discussion, but is also important.

Edit: Also, you have a sunlight allergy? You poor thing. That's like winning the genetic anti-lottery.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Edit: Also, you have a sunlight allergy? You poor thing. That's like winning the genetic anti-lottery.

Nah, there are people allergic to water, hemophilia is much worse, etc. It's kind of sad that the bright side is 'Think of how much more HORRIBLE your life could have been!'.

It's more of a hypersensitivity reaction than a real allergy, though. If I'm out in the sun for longer than 20-ish minutes, my skin starts to flake off. If I'm wet and in the sun for more than 20-ish minutes, I can peel my skin off in strips. (You have three layers of skin. First is dead skin cells, second is outer skin, and third is inner skin. (Totally the scientific names for them) My thing affects second layer. The more you know!)

Edit: Aaaaand I deleted the main part of this post. Wonderful.

I'm pretty sure this is some higher power saying 'GO TO SLEEP ALREADY'.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Double Post. Ignore.

 

[Cephei Mordred]

I'm not a Nice Guy(tm) but I may be mistaken for one because I think both sides are wrong.

I believe that we can have "Nice Guy(tm)s are entitled little fucks who need to harden the fuck up" without having "Be confident and awesome or gtfo or at least lower your standards."

It just troubles me that women can plainly say that guys have to be a certain way to be worthy of the best but men are essentially blamed for when women have body image issues, etc.

Either both genders should be required to love unconditionally, or both genders should be freely allowed their shallowness.

And sure, I'm pretty much the stereotypical loser 'man-child' who still lives with his parents, but let's say I did become more confident, successful, and awesome, and I got more female attention. How would I know they loved me for me and not for my greatness.

Long story short: don't love me because I'm beautiful.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Hah, fun idea. Though, seriously, what's wrong with hats?

 

[Smooth Operator]

When both sides seem to genuinely see themselves as a victim, it seems like something is going on that no one is getting.

How about this: Nice guy becomes friends with a girl. She starts asking him for favors because he is so nice, he agrees. She starts thinking of him as more and more nice, and he starts falling in love with her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and just asks him to do more stuff for her. He becomes resentful of doing all of the stuff for her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and when he gets sick of it and snaps she thinks it is coming out of nowhere. Both people become bitter and are convinced that the other was secretly a jerk all along

The problem is with him, but he isn't some kind of Cartoonish evil manipulator. Does that seem reasonable, or am I just completely off-base?

That is usually how the Nice Guy(TM) starts, the timid guy/girl falls for their friend but is too shy to act on it, so they keep standing on the sidelines while the friend has all the fun.
Impending bitterns in 3... 2... 1... Why you no love me?!

I was there a couple of times, and the thing people need to realize is others are not responsible for your emotions, you deal with them in your own accord and take responsibility for it.
And just because a friendship works does not mean a relationship can, there is a whole bucket of different criteria.

The end split is will you be guided by bitterness or understanding.

 

[Condiments]

I agree wholeheartedly with the article even though it will hardly do any good in the end for this debate(Even though the whole, GOOO SUPERNOVAHHHHH! was a tad overboard). Some guys are just going to have to suck it up when it comes to 'courting' women.

Though, lets face it, the 'Nice Guy' syndrome is an inevitable by-product of gender dynamics. There will always be nice guys if the first move is predominately something a man is suppose to do. Assholes/arrogant guys sweep up women because they practically bubble over-confidence and have no problems asking women out. Less assertive/decisive men get left in the dust due to inaction, because getting women doesn't work like that.

You could rage fruitlessly against the machine, or try and change yourself a bit. Getting into friendships with every women you're potentially interested in is way too time consuming, and pointless. Gauge interest level, ask them on a couple of walks/lunches, and go from there. Sure it sucks for us select less out-going types(who are interesting on a less surface level mind you), but the world doesn't care.

 

[Carnagath]

Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead.

This quote probably gave me eye cancer. You know, like a supernova would.

 

[xyrafhoan]

Ah yes, nice guys vs Nice Guys (tm). Honestly, I probably would have dated a lot more in high school if any of my friends had asked me out, because they were genuinely nice, but they were too introverted to ask and I am also an introvert. On the other hand, I was damn upset when one of the guys I liked was "nice", but really just wanted to be friends with benefits.

Oh well, I've been going 5 years strong with a genuinely nice guy. We met playing Ragnarok Online and a good chunk of the playerbase hated him because of his ego, but hey, we had fun playing the game together and eventually he decided to get a job to make enough money to see me in real life. And that he did! And he's probably the most beloved person where he works, too. He's got passion. He tells great stories. And he cooks! Not only does he cook, but it tastes way better than what my parents cook and he's got the guts to try anything. His gutsiness is essential when my family is half-Chinese and I seem to have inherited all the quirky tastes from that side.

This article is spot on when it tells you it's not enough to be nice. Nice is only a starting point. My boyfriend goes way beyond nice and onwards to amazing.

 

[Firia]

Love FAQ: Nice Guys Suck

"Nice Guys Finish Last" isn't just a song by Green Day.

Read Full Article

Thank you Lara. I've known a... few Nice Guys(tm) in my day. I don't know what they expected... I'm a gay woman, sooooo, yeah. Still, I'm hoping they read it and see the folly of their way. Because how they pine and grab hold of straws is really pretty sad. And then it's annoying.

 

[Vortigar]

"Love yourself first, and without restraint."

That's where things usually fall down if you ask me. All this "but I'm a nice guy" jibber jabber is just dancing around the issue. People who profile themselves as being the nice guy usually have problems with themselves (and I have problems with myself myself, don't you mistake me for poking fun here).

The nice guy finishes last complaint is an excuse, a way of validation. The people who use it are misguided. And here's where I don't agree with the statement that the nice guy(tm) is a jerk. The nice guy sentiment is a thought pattern that holds no malicious intent. A jerk, to my mind, is someone who knows what they're doing and consciously chooses to mess with you.